Power built citation persimmon identifying question.

[bladehunter]

Hello all.  I was wondering if anyone can help me with this little 5 wood.  Specifically wondered age and any other specific info ( wondered what loft it is , it has to be 20 -23 degrees at least by the high flight.  ?)  .  Wondering about the face insert with large center pin and two outer ones.  I can’t seem to find a pic of one like this.  
 

i had it stashed in a old bag and found it today.  Hit it very well , and I have a pal who’s on a persimmon journey.  Thought I’d give it to him to send and have restored to play. Or at least a new face insert put in. It has a crack on the lower half .  Was just curious on its specifics.  
 

it’s a really sweet little club.  High straight and really easy to hit.  

[Stephen8802]

Based on the color, I'd put that at 1977, model 320. The three pin with large center pin design was available in the mid '70s, but '75 and '76 came in black. I don't know the loft.

[bladehunter]

3 minutes ago, Stephen8802 said:

Based on the color, I'd put that at 1977, model 320. The three pin with large center pin design was available in the mid '70s, but '75 and '76 came in black. I don't know the loft.

Thank you !  I guessed it was older than the 80s. But really didn’t know.  He is/was looking for something to launch up like a modern 7 wood.  I think this will fit the bill.  I either need to get rid of it , or build a bag around it. Lol. I hit it that good. 

[Jiggered]

This table appeared on WRX a few years ago, unfortunately it doesn't include Power-Bilt but the rule of thumb appears to be 21 or 22 degrees.

I believe that the table relates to clubs from the 1970s.

 

(RAM seemed to set the bar high, going to tenths of a degree!)

 

[Foozle]

1 hour ago, Jiggered said:

This table appeared on WRX a few years ago, unfortunately it doesn't include Power-Bilt but the rule of thumb appears to be 21 or 22 degrees.

I believe that the table relates to clubs from the 1970s.

 

(RAM seemed to set the bar high, going to tenths of a degree!)

 

Ram made precision tools!

Armed with this info i think I may ask my Pro to check the lofts on my beloved Tour Grinds and ask him to bend them back to factory spec. Think I know what his response will be! 😁

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, Jiggered said:

This table appeared on WRX a few years ago, unfortunately it doesn't include Power-Bilt but the rule of thumb appears to be 21 or 22 degrees.

I believe that the table relates to clubs from the 1970s.

 

(RAM seemed to set the bar high, going to tenths of a degree!)

 

LOL I have a sometimes shootout partner of mine who has some kind of the latest and greatest Cleveland designs and his PW is 43* same as my Mac 8 iron---- The lofts are printed on the irons along with what they SAY it is LOL again

[raggal62]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Thank you !  I guessed it was older than the 80s. But really didn’t know.  He is/was looking for something to launch up like a modern 7 wood.  I think this will fit the bill.  I either need to get rid of it , or build a bag around it. Lol. I hit it that good. 

Those 70's H&B horseshoe persimmon were great but your particular club would be relatively expensive to repair if you sent it off, especially the insert. Looks like the shaft can be an issue also with the rust near the hosel. Not trying to talk you out of it, but if it were me I would look for a better candidate.

[scomac2002]

6 hours ago, Jiggered said:

This table appeared on WRX a few years ago, unfortunately it doesn't include Power-Bilt but the rule of thumb appears to be 21 or 22 degrees.

I believe that the table relates to clubs from the 1970s.

 

H&B would be the PowerBilt line.  

[scomac2002]

15 hours ago, BIG STU said:

LOL I have a sometimes shootout partner of mine who has some kind of the latest and greatest Cleveland designs and his PW is 43* same as my Mac 8 iron---- The lofts are printed on the irons along with what they SAY it is LOL again

 

I'm not as negative of the strong lofts as I once was.  Now that I'm older, I can get along quite nicely with wider gaps in my clubs so a 5° or 6° loft progression is just fine.  Assuming a 56° SW and a 50° GW I can gap nicely with a 44° PW, then a 38° 9 iron to a 32° 8 iron.  I might have to play them a bit longer than standard, but that's OK too as it will help with the gapping to a 26° 5 hybrid.  All of a sudden, 10 clubs is a full set! 😉

[BIG STU]

6 hours ago, scomac2002 said:

 

I'm not as negative of the strong lofts as I once was.  Now that I'm older, I can get along quite nicely with wider gaps in my clubs so a 5° or 6° loft progression is just fine.  Assuming a 56° SW and a 50° GW I can gap nicely with a 44° PW, then a 38° 9 iron to a 32° 8 iron.  I might have to play them a bit longer than standard, but that's OK too as it will help with the gapping to a 26° 5 hybrid.  All of a sudden, 10 clubs is a full set! 😉

Even with the slight jacked lofts compared to my VIPs I am only carrying 12 clubs. Which as SOP I only carried 12 before. What happened with the club change was the CBs only go to a 5 iron but it is only 2* more than the VIP 4 iron. So no 4 iron and do not need it. The 5 iron is 24.5 loft and it leads right to my 7 wood at 21*.  I dropped the 4 iron and ended up on the bottom end adding the 52* wedge to cover the wedge gaps from 47 to 56. On the top end again I guess due to club design and the shaft I can hit the 5 iron as good as I can my VIP 4 iron. LOL my bud with the jacked Clevelands tried to copy my bump and run with his 5 iron. I got him to go to his 7 iron because loft wise it was the same as my VIP 5 iron. 

[MizunoMayhem]

Picked this Citation 4 wood up the other day. Any idea of the vintage? Very unique insert.

 

MizunoMayhem

[Stephen8802]

I can't quite make out the model number...is that 3055?. The 1959 305 Citation had a white insert with a black vertical stripe, but I'm not sure about the dot in the middle. The picture in the 1959 catalog doesn't give a clear enough view of the insert to tell. Other 1959 models, like the imperial, did have a dot in the center of the insert, although they are eye-o-matic style. Let me know what the model number is and I'll give you a definitive answer.

 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

On 11/27/2021 at 8:52 AM, raggal62 said:

Those 70's H&B horseshoe persimmon were great but your particular club would be relatively expensive to repair if you sent it off, especially the insert. Looks like the shaft can be an issue also with the rust near the hosel. Not trying to talk you out of it, but if it were me I would look for a better candidate.

Thanks guys !  Sorry I didn’t make it back till now.  I gave  the club to my buddy.  
 

if I can ask , how or why is the insert  restoration expensive ?  Or maybe better question. How expensive ( ballpark)?    I agree on the shaft , and I think if he sends it off , an s400U will go in its place to match his 4 wood and driver.  
 

this isn’t me arguing , I’m ignorant to it and curious.  I am very reliable with modern club work. I have  always done my own.    Have all the tools etc  including a Mitchell loft lie machine etc. and am a fabricator ( metal ) by trade.  Said that just to say my brain immediately went to “ can I make an insert  myself”. Lol. As it always does.  

[MizunoMayhem]

16 hours ago, Stephen8802 said:

I can't quite make out the model number...is that 3055?. The 1959 305 Citation had a white insert with a black vertical stripe, but I'm not sure about the dot in the middle. The picture in the 1959 catalog doesn't give a clear enough view of the insert to tell. Other 1959 models, like the imperial, did have a dot in the center of the insert, although they are eye-o-matic style. Let me know what the model number is and I'll give you a definitive answer.

 

 

 

 

Stephen,

 

The model number looks like 3066R, but very well could be 3055R. The 5/6 are very stylized. Upon further review, it is 3055R.

 

Mizuno Mayhem

[Stephen8802]

1959, write up below. It has to be a 305 because the 306 was the 1960 model and that had a brass strip in the middle of the insert. I have a set of the '60 Citations and they are nice sticks.

 

The code 3055R stands for Model 305, 5 length (which is a 43 in driver and the longest of the lengths they offered), and the R shaft. In 1960, they went with the A/B/C shaft designation where A=semi-flex, B=standard, C=stiff, but they messed around with other designations in the 50s.

 

 

[Swingingk]

12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Thanks guys !  Sorry I didn’t make it back till now.  I gave  the club to my buddy.  
 

if I can ask , how or why is the insert  restoration expensive ?  Or maybe better question. How expensive ( ballpark)?    I agree on the shaft , and I think if he sends it off , an s400U will go in its place to match his 4 wood and driver.  
 

this isn’t me arguing , I’m ignorant to it and curious.  I am very reliable with modern club work. I have  always done my own.    Have all the tools etc  including a Mitchell loft lie machine etc. and am a fabricator ( metal ) by trade.  Said that just to say my brain immediately went to “ can I make an insert  myself”. Lol. As it always does.  

Hey Blade, I think the reason the word "expensive" came up is mostly because so few clubmakers do persimmon wood work anymore so it can get a bit pricey what with shipping and all.  Expensive is a relative term though and when a person lays down a whole $5 for an old wood it seems nasty to have to put another $150 into it to make it nice.  We classic club nuts tend to somewhat miserly as well.  Ha!

In regards to this particular insert it is more difficult to repair than the kind with screws holding it in.  The pins would need to be pulled and remade from scratch so it's more hassle.  Being used to working with clubs already and obviously not afraid of tools you probably wouldn't have much trouble with it.

 

On a side note, what kind of fabrication are you involved in?  Fitting?  Welding?  Sheet metal?  Just a curious machinist asking... 😆

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, Swingingk said:

Hey Blade, I think the reason the word "expensive" came up is mostly because so few clubmakers do persimmon wood work anymore so it can get a bit pricey what with shipping and all.  Expensive is a relative term though and when a person lays down a whole $5 for an old wood it seems nasty to have to put another $150 into it to make it nice.  We classic club nuts tend to somewhat miserly as well.  Ha!

In regards to this particular insert it is more difficult to repair than the kind with screws holding it in.  The pins would need to be pulled and remade from scratch so it's more hassle.  Being used to working with clubs already and obviously not afraid of tools you probably wouldn't have much trouble with it.

 

On a side note, what kind of fabrication are you involved in?  Fitting?  Welding?  Sheet metal?  Just a curious machinist asking... 😆

i build cars.   Street rods to correct restorations.  And not just paint jobs and wheels like on TV. I’m talking cars that look like they’ve been in the ocean for 10 years built back to award winners.  All in house.  Long story how it got to be all in house. But short version is , I farmed out stuff until I couldn’t stand the poor quality anymore then gradually learned the rest myself.  Which is why I said my mind immediately goes to “ can I just do that myself “?   Lol.    
 

so yes. I have many hours stitching sheet metal together , getting a subframe or body shell to fit a factory spec jig again , making new parts on the brake of the part isn’t reproduced etc. 6-8 months of fab work just to get a car to the point of being able to start body prep for paint isn’t rare.  In fact it’s been normal for me for the last 21 years. 
 

this is something that interests me as a hobby.  I recently fell in love with wood itself through natural disaster.  Last October we had a tropical storm come through and down 8-9 huge oak trees on our farm.  Luckily none hit the house. But one did take out a 100 plus year old barn completely.     So we decided to have the logs milled  into lumber to rebuild the barn.  Well. 16ft 2x10 white oak planks are gorgeous I’ll just say.  
 

In that time I was also finishing a sunroom addition to our house.  A contractor framed it and finished the outside.  But I was to do the drywall and interior trim.  I got into cedar trim , and went nuts.  Did a cedar bead board ceiling , window framing , and built a 29 foot window bench down the long wall under the windows.  Topped it with a butcher block cedar top i made by pressing scraps from the windows into a 21 inch wide slab.   …. I’m still working on finishing the stain and clear coat. But the actual fitting is done. Even held it all together with oak pegs sanded smooth.  
 

So yea. To call me OCD would be an understatement.  lol.  I simply can’t help myself. I love to know how everything works. And if I watch it done once I can probably replicate it.  Or at least learn as I screw up.  😂

 

 

what you say about the insert totally makes sense.  I hadn’t considered the pins vs screws.  

[Stephen8802]

9 hours ago, Swingingk said:

...In regards to this particular insert it is more difficult to repair than the kind with screws holding it in.  The pins would need to be pulled and remade from scratch so it's more hassle.  ...

You are right that the would be a hassle, those are headless screws that are pounded in with a hammer. The Maltby book recommends drilling a hole in screws, heating them up, and removing them with an Easy Out screw extractor. Not the worst thing in the world, but a lot more work than unscrewing Frearson screws.

 

There are still some of those screws around, but they aren't too easy to find. I know someone who bought a screw assortment from an old timer and there were some there. I think John Hayes has some from the Joe Powell inventory he bought. For someone with basic woodworking skills and the patience to read a few books and/or watch the Mike Rees videos, this is a doable project.

[raggal62]

I have repaired partially broken inserts like the one pictured without total replacement. I won't go into detail but it's just a matter of cutting out the damaged section with a dremel and casting in a 2 part epoxy. File and sand, then cut new scoring lines.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by raggal62

[bladehunter]

31 minutes ago, raggal62 said:

I have repaired partially broken inserts like the one pictured without total replacement. I won't go into detail but it's just a matter of cutting out the damaged section with a dremel and casting in a 2 part epoxy. File and sand, then cut new scoring lines.

 

You know. I thought similar.  Wondered if it would be considered a “ proper repair”.  The pins in this face seem to be really really solid.  You don’t think you’re hitting a cracked  face when you do hit it. So I’d bet that it would hold up.  

[Swingingk]

14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

i build cars.   Street rods to correct restorations.  And not just paint jobs and wheels like on TV. I’m talking cars that look like they’ve been in the ocean for 10 years built back to award winners.  All in house.  Long story how it got to be all in house. But short version is , I farmed out stuff until I couldn’t stand the poor quality anymore then gradually learned the rest myself.  Which is why I said my mind immediately goes to “ can I just do that myself “?   Lol.    
 

so yes. I have many hours stitching sheet metal together , getting a subframe or body shell to fit a factory spec jig again , making new parts on the brake of the part isn’t reproduced etc. 6-8 months of fab work just to get a car to the point of being able to start body prep for paint isn’t rare.  In fact it’s been normal for me for the last 21 years. 
 

this is something that interests me as a hobby.  I recently fell in love with wood itself through natural disaster.  Last October we had a tropical storm come through and down 8-9 huge oak trees on our farm.  Luckily none hit the house. But one did take out a 100 plus year old barn completely.     So we decided to have the logs milled  into lumber to rebuild the barn.  Well. 16ft 2x10 white oak planks are gorgeous I’ll just say.  
 

In that time I was also finishing a sunroom addition to our house.  A contractor framed it and finished the outside.  But I was to do the drywall and interior trim.  I got into cedar trim , and went nuts.  Did a cedar bead board ceiling , window framing , and built a 29 foot window bench down the long wall under the windows.  Topped it with a butcher block cedar top i made by pressing scraps from the windows into a 21 inch wide slab.   …. I’m still working on finishing the stain and clear coat. But the actual fitting is done. Even held it all together with oak pegs sanded smooth.  
 

So yea. To call me OCD would be an understatement.  lol.  I simply can’t help myself. I love to know how everything works. And if I watch it done once I can probably replicate it.  Or at least learn as I screw up.  😂

 

 

what you say about the insert totally makes sense.  I hadn’t considered the pins vs screws.  

Neat!  I'm much the same way in that I have to do everything myself.  I love to restore, resurrect, and rebuild things.  Too many interests and too little time.

For sure you'd be able to do a nice job on a persimmon with the skills you already have.  You should try one.  Better yet - build your own!  I must admit I've been thinking about that myself lately...

 

The oak framed barn sure sounds cool.  Man it must be super solid!

[Foozle]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:27 PM, Stephen8802 said:

1959, write up below. It has to be a 305 because the 306 was the 1960 model and that had a brass strip in the middle of the insert. I have a set of the '60 Citations and they are nice sticks.

 

The code 3055R stands for Model 305, 5 length (which is a 43 in driver and the longest of the lengths they offered), and the R shaft. In 1960, they went with the A/B/C shaft designation where A=semi-flex, B=standard, C=stiff, but they messed around with other designations in the 50s.

 

 

Great information. I wonder if you can de-code and date these which I have just added to my growing Power Bilt collection?

The pictures make it look like the inserts on the 3 & 4 may be loose but they are not. The sole plate on the 3 has taken a bit of a knock but nothing serious. The dark spot on the driver caused some concern in case it was water damage but it feels very solid so maybe something in the wood or bleed from the stain? They should respond well to a little tlc. All in all quite together and in good playable order.

Once again Power Bilt seems to have passed below the radar of UK buyers and attracted very little attention. They remain the best kept secret here in the UK. Don't tell anyone! 

[Stephen8802]

I'm on a business trip and away from my book, but I can look it up on Friday. 

[Brewski_golfs]

8 hours ago, Foozle said:

Great information. I wonder if you can de-code and date these which I have just added to my growing Power Bilt collection?

The pictures make it look like the inserts on the 3 & 4 may be loose but they are not. The sole plate on the 3 has taken a bit of a knock but nothing serious. The dark spot on the driver caused some concern in case it was water damage but it feels very solid so maybe something in the wood or bleed from the stain? They should respond well to a little tlc. All in all quite together and in good playable order.

Once again Power Bilt seems to have passed below the radar of UK buyers and attracted very little attention. They remain the best kept secret here in the UK. Don't tell anyone! 

 

1968/1969 Model 314 Citation.  314L is the deepface model driver, I think 5 represents shaft length of 44" but not 100% on that one.  B represents standard shaft flex.  Not sure if the star has any meaning. 

[Foozle]

4 hours ago, Brewski_golfs said:

 

1968/1969 Model 314 Citation.  314L is the deepface model driver, I think 5 represents shaft length of 44" but not 100% on that one.  B represents standard shaft flex.  Not sure if the star has any meaning. 

Brilliant, thank you!

I wasn't sure if I could just count out the years from Stephen's '59 reference year for the 305 model. It looks like I would have been wrong to do so.

The shaft is 43" which ties in with Stephen's figure for the 5. Unusual step pattern with approx 2" steps but with a group of 1" steps just below the grip and another group of close steps about midway down.

I did wonder if the 'L' may reference deep face as it does look slightly bigger but not on the scale of deep face MacGregor's for example. The face depth is 4cm or 1 5/8 inches.

They need new grips and a little TLC but look forward to giving them a try.

Thanks again for the help.

[Foozle]

11 hours ago, Stephen8802 said:

I'm on a business trip and away from my book, but I can look it up on Friday. 

Thanks, Brewski has decoded for me which is great.

Would you know if the star has any significance or just punctuation in Power Bilt script?

[Stephen8802]

The star indicates a Golf Pride grip. That club was offered in a black leather grip or a Golf Pride grip. In later models, the star just meant rubber grip.

 

The 314L is indeed the deep face driver. I have three PB drivers--1960, 1966, and 1981--and all are PB's deep face. None are over 1 3/4, so not Macgregor deep, but PowerBilt deep.

[Foozle]

5 minutes ago, Stephen8802 said:

The star indicates a Golf Pride grip. That club was offered in a black leather grip or a Golf Pride grip. In later models, the star just meant rubber grip.

 

The 314L is indeed the deep face driver. I have three PB drivers--1960, 1966, and 1981--and all are PB's deep face. None are over 1 3/4, so not Macgregor deep, but PowerBilt deep.

Thanks for the information.

I guess the driver has retained its original grip.

It is unusual in having a flared end. Useful now to stop it slipping out of your hands as it is so shiny!

The grips on the 3 & 4 have been changed at some point reflecting the greater use they look to have had. I don't think the driver has hit many shots in the last 52 years!

[raggal62]

2 hours ago, Foozle said:

Thanks for the information.

I guess the driver has retained its original grip.

It is unusual in having a flared end. Useful now to stop it slipping out of your hands as it is so shiny!

The grips on the 3 & 4 have been changed at some point reflecting the greater use they look to have had. I don't think the driver has hit many shots in the last 52 years!

I don't believe that is the original grip Foozle. XPC was a Golfsmith component brand. 

[persimmon-guy]

I bought a citation persimmon driver in the early 90's and the markings on the club said it was a Super Citation, 240cc, cork filled. The Power Bilt marking on top has a silver lightning bolt not the traditional red lightning bolt. The face insert is black with two screws and a center aluminum firing pin. The sole plate has the traditional horseshoe with the number 1. There are no serial numbers on the club head or sole plate. Any help to identify when this driver was manufactured would be great.