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Another Hardy post…how is LOP not just yanking handle and getting steep?


Shanker84
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So, for right or wrong I like the ideas thrown out with Hardy and have had some success with the one plane swing and RIT thing. Problem is my natural tendencies are much more DJ/JT than Hogan/Fowler and my body just wants to go high with the hands. I know he talks about hybrids but it isn’t working for me and pulling with my left arm feels much more powerful so I’ve been trying to apply the LOP method with little/mixed success. 

 

Problem I run into is that trying to pull with the left arm, for me, is just super steep and is disastrous for anything about 8 iron. I’ve read the book, and it’s likely I missed something, but how the heck is the shaft supposed to shallow out with this method? Most of it feels very natural to me and I’d like to get to a point where I can enjoy the game again and not have to fight every natural tendency, and I know the Hogan line about things feeling natural and Monte’s point about “your crappy swing probably feels pretty natural” but I have to think there’s some sort of middle ground here. 

 

Does anyone have any tips on successfully doing an LOP method (or whatever you want to call it) and getting shallow? 

 

TIA

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16 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

I’ll be generous and say that the concepts of RIT and LOP aren’t completely useless, but are way too oversimplified to actually be applied directly to a golf swing.

I guess just replace “LOP” with a lead-arm driven/roll release. 

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The same way this guy does.  I'd have to see your swing but it sounds like your shaft is too steep, or your path is moving left because you opened your shoulders early.  Justin Rose also falls into the LOP category defined by Hardy and his drill is to feel his shoulders closed while his arms drop.  If it is your shaft that is too steep, you could try feeling like your left palm turns down, (faces the ground), in transition.  Just be careful you don't overdo it or you will find a quick ticket to block and hooksville.  Remember, the RIT squares the club face to the path at the top of the swing while the LOP squares the face to the path at the bottom.

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Edited by DShepley
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I'm not trying to be argumentative but I throw up in my mouth a little when I see people talking about dropping the left arm, pulling with the left arm or left side, swinging the arms independent of the shoulders or artificially keeping the shoulders closed.

 

His shaft is on an inclined plane not a vertical plane. The ball is out in front of you, it isn't on the same plane as your feet.

 

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24 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I throw up in my mouth a little when I see people talking about dropping the left arm, pulling with the left arm or left side, swinging the arms independent of the shoulders or artificially keeping the shoulders closed.

 

His shaft is on an inclined plane not a vertical plane. The ball is out in front of you, it isn't on the same plane as your feet.

 

765664926_SameSnead-OpenFace.jpeg.9964928c78f275f2f0137a5bc5d1cec4.jpeg

Well, for starters, he is defined as an RIT by Hardy, so it's apples and oranges...

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1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

LOP & RIT fall under the dazzle them with bullxxxx category but if people want to buy into it fine with me. 🙂

Well no they don't, they are both clearly defined by Hardy, so, if you feel the need to "throw up on your mouth a little", then maybe find another thread to comment in....Hardy and the Plane Truth folk are about matchups. If....you exhibit characteristics of one release style, utilizing fundamentals from the other will not be helpful.  The OP asked about the LOP and you replied posting a picture of Snead who is RIT....so not helpful in this case. So, if you have nothing to add but to "throw up in your mouth a little", perhaps you should have just kept scrolling...not to be argumentative or anything....

Edited by DShepley
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16 hours ago, DShepley said:

Well no they don't, they are both clearly defined by Hardy, so, if you feel the need to "throw up on your mouth a little", then maybe find another thread to comment in....Hardy and the Plane Truth folk are about matchups. If....you exhibit characteristics of one release style, utilizing fundamentals from the other will not be helpful.  The OP asked about the LOP and you replied posting a picture of Snead who is RIT....so not helpful in this case. So, if you have nothing to add but to "throw up in your mouth a little", perhaps you should have just kept scrolling...not to be argumentative or anything....

Couldn't agree more.  Some people critique Hardy's teachings as over simplified and maybe I see why they would feel that way but I think it is designed to be simple.  His goal is always to have the student hit the next ball better and simple is much easier for most people to do that.  I agree that if you want to talk technical mechanics, Hardy might not be your guy but I don't think that means his teachings have any less merit.  Just so people don't get confused, Justin Rose and DJ are definitely a RIT hitters.  DJ throws later than most RIT players.  Justin Rose i think naturally is an LOP player but has been trying very hard throughout the last 3-4 years to move to RIT so he can control his ball better.  Hope this helps

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22 minutes ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Couldn't agree more.  Some people critique Hardy's teachings as over simplified and maybe I see why they would feel that way but I think it is designed to be simple.  His goal is always to have the student hit the next ball better and simple is much easier for most people to do that.  I agree that if you want to talk technical mechanics, Hardy might not be your guy but I don't think that means his teachings have any less merit.  Just so people don't get confused, Justin Rose and DJ are definitely a RIT hitters.  DJ throws later than most RIT players.  Justin Rose i think naturally is an LOP player but has been trying very hard throughout the last 3-4 years to move to RIT so he can control his ball better.  Hope this helps

Any input on how the club shallows with LOP? Only thing I can think of is that the club is pulled out past the ball but left hip rotation/depth makes your brain/body shallow in order to hit the ball? Confused on how it’s supposed to work. 

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16 minutes ago, Shanker84 said:

Any input on how the club shallows with LOP? Only thing I can think of is that the club is pulled out past the ball but left hip rotation/depth makes your brain/body shallow in order to hit the ball? Confused on how it’s supposed to work. 

Can you post a swing vid in slow mo?  Could suggest a few ways to shallow but wouldn’t be helpful without seeing the current swing 

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2 hours ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Can you post a swing vid in slow mo?  Could suggest a few ways to shallow but wouldn’t be helpful without seeing the current swing 

I don't have one and honestly, unless I can figure out how it's even supposed to work I'm not going to give it much time. I like the idea of it but I just don't understand how it's supposed to happen so I'm not going to try and spend more time engraining bad habits that I'm already prone to unless I know what the "secret move" is. 

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1 hour ago, Shanker84 said:

I don't have one and honestly, unless I can figure out how it's even supposed to work I'm not going to give it much time. I like the idea of it but I just don't understand how it's supposed to happen so I'm not going to try and spend more time engraining bad habits that I'm already prone to unless I know what the "secret move" is. 

Best to move on then.  Wouldn’t recommend LOP for any player unless the hit massive slices or don’t have enough distance to enjoy the game 

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26 minutes ago, reefrash1043 said:

im lost..can someone please explain LOP and RIT? 

This is what I found.

 

RIT Right-arm Inward Throw

 

LOP Left-arm Outward Pull

 

HTH Hope That Helps

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1 hour ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Best to move on then.  Wouldn’t recommend LOP for any player unless the hit massive slices or don’t have enough distance to enjoy the game 

That’s me, massive slices with driver (irons are more of a fade and definitely playable). While I don’t NOT have enough distance to enjoy the game, given my age 36 and my build, 6’4 210 and fairly strong and athletic, my 220 driver and 150 7 iron isn’t exactly making the game crazy enjoyable. 

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2 hours ago, reefrash1043 said:

im lost..can someone please explain LOP and RIT? 

I’m no expert but LOP is more of a roll release where the left arm comes down and is in line with the ball and then the right arm crosses over left with lots of face rotation. RIT is more of a throw with the right arm where left arm is perpendicular to the ground and the right forearm and shaft line up. I always get the terminology wrong but I think it’s all flexion/extension with the right wrist and no rolling of the club face to the arch. 
 

It’s less of a Hardy invention and more just his own terminology on how different players do it. 

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3 minutes ago, Shanker84 said:

I’m no expert but LOP is more of a roll release where the left arm comes down and is in line with the ball and then the right arm crosses over left with lots of face rotation. RIT is more of a throw with the right arm where left arm is perpendicular to the ground and the right forearm and shaft line up. I always get the terminology wrong but I think it’s all flexion/extension with the right wrist and no rolling of the club face to the arch. 
 

It’s less of a Hardy invention and more just his own terminology on how different players do it. 

Pretty good basic explanation and spot on about him using his own terminology for already existing ideas.  Agree the wrist movements play a large part.  There’s also a component of one plane and two Plane swingers that match up with those release patterns but this is a good start 

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3 hours ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Best to move on then.  Wouldn’t recommend LOP for any player unless the hit massive slices or don’t have enough distance to enjoy the game 

I think the overwhelming majority of players, certainly amateurs, fall in the LOP category. Without seeing the OP's swing though, it's kind of a mute point. We need to see it to categorize it, then apply the appropriate fundamentals.  There are multiple reasons why he might be steep and you can't begin to fix it without first identifying why. 

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Just now, DShepley said:

I think the overwhelming majority of players, certainly amateurs, fall in the LOP category. Without seeing the OP's swing though, it's kind of a mute point. We need to see it to categorize it, then apply the appropriate fundamentals.  There are multiple reasons why he might be steep and you can't begin to fix it without first identifying why. 

I’m just taking philosophically. I know Hardy says you shallow in RIT by bringing the left arm down but seems like he never addresses it in LOP. Did I miss something or does he just not give guidance? Seems dangerous to throw that advice out without giving guidance on it. 

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5 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I think the overwhelming majority of players, certainly amateurs, fall in the LOP category. Without seeing the OP's swing though, it's kind of a mute point. We need to see it to categorize it, then apply the appropriate fundamentals.  There are multiple reasons why he might be steep and you can't begin to fix it without first identifying why. 

Agree which is why I asked him to post it earlier.  If we are talking in a general sense though I think it’s fair to say an LOP release will help big slicers feel what it’s like to close the face even if they are squaring it with roll.  I’d say most golf journeys go that way.  Start off slicing it off the planet and then figure out how to hook it a bit.  Once you get good at hitting the ball with draw spin, players usually have to figure out how to harness that to improve to the next level.  Would love to see a swing DTL in slow motion.  Many reasons why one could be steep and we won’t know unless we see it 

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13 minutes ago, Shanker84 said:

I’m just taking philosophically. I know Hardy says you shallow in RIT by bringing the left arm down but seems like he never addresses it in LOP. Did I miss something or does he just not give guidance? Seems dangerous to throw that advice out without giving guidance on it. 

Not sure I can recall what he would say about this but don’t think he would focus on shaft pitch with LOP.  Handle is coming into impact significantly higher so I think a decent amount of steepness would be expected.  
 

With that being said would think any of the usual shallowing moves would be effective here.  Wrist conditions, dropping the hands and arms or excessive right side bend should get that thing to shallow.  Manipulate it if you have to.  Not sure how that jives with what Jim would say tho

Edited by Jlopicco23
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