Turn, tilt, or both?

[FormerBigDaddy]

Title kind of explains it all and refers to the start of the swing in takeaway. Lots of conflicting information on this. I get the whole 90* to the spine thing but adding some tilt seems to help to get the club going up. Yet some say tilt or left side bend early is bad and I can understand that too. One example I keep going back to is If you were standing straight up and were going to hit a ball off like say, a baseball batting tee (high off the ground), you first instinct is to turn, which would be 90* to the spine.  You wouldn't think to tilt… yet when you put the club down on the ground, if you just turn without any tilt the club stays low and never gets going up unless you start doing something with your hands/arms really early.  I like the idea of tilting early to get the club going up instead of using the hands/arms early but not sure if that's right.
 

So what is it? Tilt, turn, or a combination of both?

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[nitram]

combination of both

[mikpga]

The spine tilts, extends, and turns...

 

 

[scooterhd2]

Both are necessary.

 

 

[getitdaily]

Both. Think chest down while you turn. Same principle in the downswing...chest down while you turn. 

[Krt22]

50 minutes ago, pressure said:

Obviously both, but do you turn to find tilt or do you tilt to find turn might be a larger question, or is it distinction without a difference. 

What?

[baudi]

Do not tilt. The spine curves.

[nitram]

You have to tilt a little because of the way your hands are on the grip.

[mikpga]

You simply replace the forward flex you have at address with lateral flexion (side bend/tilt), as the spine turns and extends in order to maintain your inclination to the ground during the backswing.

[Mike_C]

23 hours ago, scooterhd2 said:

Both are necessary.

 

 

This really is a great video. This is something I have been  working on a lot as I got older.  I started doing what he calls "horizontal" shoulder turn, I always called it a flat shoulder turn.  I seemed to forget how to turn, or was just getting stiff in my older age.   I had to get the sense that my left shoulder moved down towards the ball, not "around".  When I first started working on this, I felt like I would hit the ground about 2 feet behind the ball as I came down.  But what is key is what he illustrates here, "the lawnmower pull" with the left side coming down. I  used to get really steep in my swing also, this has corrected that also, as being steep was a result of my arms swinging down so much since my shoulder turn was so bad. 

[mikpga]

35 minutes ago, Walker678 said:

All at the same time or one after the other?  Or does it matter?

Appropriate rates in a manner which allows the golfer to maintain their inclination to the ground...

 

You are replacing however many degrees of forward flex you have at P1 ideally with the same amount of lateral flexion as you swing to P4...

 

 

[Nels55]

Here is an explanation of shoulder turn vs. arm swing that might be informative:

 

The flat shoulder turn and steep arm swing is a lot easier on my old body then what Padraig demonstrates in the video posted earlier in this thread.  

[Zitlow]

the arms work with the body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Zitlow

[mikpga]

For simplicity, Shoulder Down…

[Zitlow]

On 12/2/2021 at 2:36 PM, Walker678 said:

That's way too much for me to think about when swinging.  Do you have a simpler swing thought or drill that will accomplish all of the above?

 

About 60-70% of our learning is done visually. Here's a video that might clear things up for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Zitlow

[baudi]

 

[zacgolf]

Review the post.

 

Deleted

Edited December 4, 2021 by zacgolf

[Mike_C]

I think this video is also relevant.   Breaking down chest turn and shoulder turn.   Turning your chest/trunk and lifting up your arms is not a shoulder turn.  I think I have at times tried to over rotate my torso but not moved my shoulders as shown in this video, which can really be a power killer.   Also, but moving your right shoulder back as you near the top, you help create tilt as what is said in the first post as "tilt seems to help to get the club going up. "

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Mike_C

[FormerBigDaddy]

I'm reviving this thread b/c it's still awesome and I'm still kind of stuck between types of swings.  

 

The video from above is a great example of a more body oriented swing with less work in the arms.

 

Where as the beginning of this video (also from above) discusses a flatter more horizontal turn with more vertical arm swing.  

 

 

My problem is that I just can't figure out which is better for me.  A tilt based swing with less arm lift seems to be simpler for me but not as easy on my body.  A flatter turn with more arm lift is easier on my 40 year old body but requires a lot more syncing.  

Edited December 19, 2022 by FormerBigDaddy

[aggiegolfer21]

It's a combination, whatever combination gets your spine in the right position.  Best not to get too analytical on this though.  Simplest way to think about it is this - turn in posture.

[Chunkitgood]

The standard advice to turn precisely perpendicular to your spine is like most standard advice and the static fundamentals wrong for most people, maybe everybody.

 

Mikepga has it more or less right: you replace forward lean with left lean during the backswing.  The left lean however is not that simple.  Stand straight up, keeping your head still, and flex your left side.  What happens?  You right hip moves to the right, it sways.

 

The golf swing, as most if not all other full body movements, is played properly from the ground up, which in terms of how people perceive their body moving generally means you “lead with your hips.”  In the swing, you want your shoulders to rock/your hips to sway, your head to come up, and your hips to spin, all things we are constantly told not to allow.

 

The precise mix varies from player to player, which is why advice turn perpendicular to spine is to be taken cautiously.  It is advice given as far as I can see to counteract the tendency of the vast majority to not have enough left tilt/shoulder rock/hip sway, but the advice to turn perpendicular to spine does no good when you tell people to not do the things things necessary to accomplish it.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Chunkitgood

[Zitlow]

It isn't a lot of tilt, just enough to get the weight shifted and to get the turn jumpstarted. It's called a compound pivot. The legs flex and extend the way they do when you walk. 

 

People with elaborate shoulder planes introduce shoulder wobble making it difficult to swing the shaft and clubface on the proper plane without hand and arm compensations. 

  

 

[FormerBigDaddy]

Nice updates to this thread i missed... thanks

[FormerBigDaddy]

On 12/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, mikpga said:

Appropriate rates in a manner which allows the golfer to maintain their inclination to the ground...

 

You are replacing however many degrees of forward flex you have at P1 ideally with the same amount of lateral flexion as you swing to P4...

 

 

Reading this again and it's starting to make sense, I think. This is going to be kind of deep...

 

Using the baseball tee analogy again. If you were standing completely upright and vertical as if you were going to hit a golf ball off a high tee, you would obviously have NO FORWARD FLEX.  Therefore there would be no need to add lateral flexion to make a swing.  Turning in this way is a VERY different feeling then turning with tilt.

 

However, as you lower yourself into golf posture to hit a ball off the ground you obviously have forward flex/tilt.  Using your example, now you would need to add left side bend/lateral flexion as you turn away.  Which would get the going up instead of in and low.

 

These 2 examples feel completely different... if I got this all right, it explains why they have to be different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GoGoErky]

 

[FormerBigDaddy]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

 

This is why I cannot take these clowns from AMG seriously.  People take what they say as the word of god yet they have tons of videos where they completely contradict themselves. 

 

Example 1:

In the AMG video you posted he basically says at the 3:25 min mark you don't have to add any tilt or side bend.

 

In the video below at the 4:30 min mark they say the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!. Especially at the 5:15 mark.

 

 

 

So which is it?

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GoGoErky]

18 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

This is why I cannot take these clowns from AMG seriously.  In the AMG video you posted he basically says at the 3:25 min mark you don't have to add any tilt or side bend.

 

In the video below at the 4:30 min mark they say the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!. Especially at the 5:15 mark.

 

 

 

So which is it?

Perfect example of what Monte talked about in the shallowing thread of non experts calling those who are names and indicating they don’t know what they are talking about. If you actually listen to what they are saying Shaun literally says an easy way to accomplish is it is to just turn which is exactly what

they said in the video I posted.

 

So maybe the clown isn’t the guys in the video

[FormerBigDaddy]

11 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Perfect example of what Monte talked about in the shallowing thread of non experts calling those who are names and indicating they don’t know what they are talking about. If you actually listen to what they are saying Shaun literally says an easy way to accomplish is it is to just turn which is exactly what

they said in the video I posted.

 

So maybe the clown isn’t the guys in the video

They literally say and demonstrate completely opposite things here. It’s not the same…

[Zitlow]

31 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

This is why I cannot take these clowns from AMG seriously.  People take what they say as the word of god yet they have tons of videos where they completely contradict themselves. 

 

Example 1:

In the AMG video you posted he basically says at the 3:25 min mark you don't have to add any tilt or side bend.

 

In the video below at the 4:30 min mark they say the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!. Especially at the 5:15 mark.

 

 

 

So which is it?

 

I wouldn't call them clowns but they do have a good racket going on. When these scientific PhD guys like Dr. Kwon, Sasho, Nesbit and others can't come to a consensus on the best way to apply force to a golf ball it's probably good to have a healthy dose of cynicism when it comes to golf instruction. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

3 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

I wouldn't call them clowns but they do have a good racket going on. When these scientific PhD guys like Dr. Kwon, Sasho, Nesbit and others can't come to a consensus on the best way to apply force to a golf ball it's probably good to have a healthy dose of cynicism when it comes to golf instruction. 

I’m not trying to derail this thread I just want to know which it is.

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy