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Why does more driver loft mean more forgiveness?


Barfolomew

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7 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry missed this earlier but this particular part is not true.  The impact geometry (and resulting motion of the head for gear effect) dictates the spin axis.  There is no resistance created by either one for the other - and therefore no additional forces needed to for either side/back spin.


I'm not sure I understand based on how you worded it here but I want to since its a topic that comes up. I guess what I want to get the proper terms for is why in my hypothetical scenario of a center strike 2,000rpm shot is the high toe ball, which will obviously drop in spin, so much less stable and prone to duck hooking than the same exact shot with a higher spin rate. Assuming the only difference is the driver's static loft, what actual forces are at play that cause the lower spinning ball to hook more with a similar toe strike?

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3 hours ago, Valtiel said:


I'm not sure I understand based on how you worded it here but I want to since its a topic that comes up. I guess what I want to get the proper terms for is why in my hypothetical scenario of a center strike 2,000rpm shot is the high toe ball, which will obviously drop in spin, so much less stable and prone to duck hooking than the same exact shot with a higher spin rate. Assuming the only difference is the driver's static loft, what actual forces are at play that cause the lower spinning ball to hook more with a similar toe strike?

 

Just a guess, but I'm guessing you're equating an unintended trajectory with a lack of stability.  That's not really what a lack of stability is.    If you make the same exact impact multiple times - the ball flight will be the same.   That's actually a stable condition - with respect to the ball flight.   If you got wildly different results with the exact same impact, that would be an unstable result.

 

Any toe shot will add a lot of side spin and cause a substantial hook.   Second,  face impact position and gear effect will have a significantly greater effect on the spin than the loft - for both back and side spin.  So not sure verying the face impact that much is really the best example to try to use to justify anything to do with loft.

 

So I guess I'm not really agreeing with your assertions that a lower spinning ball will hook more or that more loft will be any kind of mitigating factor for that poor impact.   Do you have actual LM comparison data (with impact positions) to back that up?   

 

Better yet, have you tried running different scenarios through the flightscope trajectory optimizer - specifically looking at a const side spin component with a varying back spin component?    You'll have to do the math to convert that to the total spin and spin axis input that the program takes.

 

Here's just one scenario I ran:

side spin 500 (reasonable for 1/2" toe side miss),  ball speed 137, H launch angle 11*.  Back spin (varied) and lateral miss results below.

1000  -> 12.4 yards

2000 -> 8.5 yards

3000 -> 6.9 yards

 

Remember with off center hits and horizontal gear effect the side and backspin components will NOT scale together.  That's why you need to look at side and backspin as independent inputs to the problem.  It's also actually true for face-to-path side spin as well.   face-to-path dictates side spin.  Dynamic loft dictates back spin.  Total spin is the combined result of both of those components.

 

Granted it's a slower swing/ball speed  and not an optimal launch by any means (no need to ask who's numbers I based that off of 🙂 )  but that's a huge change in backspin and it only resulted in a relatively minor change in offline miss.

 

Can't say for sure but I suspect a lot more is actually going on than you might be considering for those shots you are trying to use as a basis for your thoughts.  

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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For a seemingly "harmless" thread title, this has been one super informative thread for me  -> really has me educated / thinking differently on previous notions as to spin, launch, etc.  Great thread !  👍👍👍

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  • 2 years later...

Just going through this thread and there is some good information but one thing stands out. 


It seems like a lot of people are conflating 'forgiveness with dispersion'. I may be wrong in these assumptions but that's the impression I got while reading. 


The reason people, including TXG, claim that more loft is more forgiving is because it generally means more spin and at certain swing speeds a reduction in carry. So if your miss carries less - it carries less offline and therefore is perceived as more forgiving. But generally speaking forgiveness is related to ball speed loss outside of the clubheads COG properties. 

 

Individuals who lose strokes off the tee with penalty shots can try a higher lofted driver and see if that keeps them in play more. Or as mentioned, try a shorter driver to see if that allows better contact and face to path control. Both of these options are infinitely better than buying the latest and greatest $600 driver and hoping for the best. 

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Higher spin loft means that the ball will curve less, given the same face to path relationship. A 4 degree open face to path with a wedge reacts very differently than a 4 degree open face to path with a driver. 

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8 hours ago, dsmil said:

Higher spin loft means that the ball will curve less, given the same face to path relationship.

 

No, it really doesn't.   The curvature (side-spin) is the same.   It just means that the ball may not go as far - and that includes offline distance.   But it takes more than a few degrees before you'll see enough of a difference to actually matter.   And I don't know very many who actually want to intentionally reduce how far their driver goes.  And even for those that might - there are much better ways to accomplish that.    If a particular shot doesn't need the full distance and requires more accuracy - just use your fairway wood.

 

 

8 hours ago, dsmil said:

A 4 degree open face to path with a wedge reacts very differently than a 4 degree open face to path with a driver. 

 

Once you get above about 45* of dynamic loft - lots of things starts to act a bit different in terms of the ball flight.   But that's not something you really have to worry about with drivers.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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I think a lot depends on what "forgiveness" means to the OP.

 

I'd definitely consider a 10 degree driver more forgiving than an 8. I'd be hitting 200yd headhunters with the 8. Even if they're dead straight shots,  it's an unforgiving club to me. 

 

If the definition of forgiveness is strictly dispersion then some of these other arguments probably have a lot of merit. 

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Imagine trying to slice or hook a sand wedge, spin axis is so strong on the horizontal that it’s dang near impossible to tilt it left or right. 

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1 hour ago, A.Princey said:

Imagine trying to slice or hook a sand wedge, spin axis is so strong on the horizontal that it’s dang near impossible to tilt it left or right. 

Hold my beer.

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3 hours ago, bcjim said:

I think a lot depends on what "forgiveness" means to the OP.

 

I'd definitely consider a 10 degree driver more forgiving than an 8. I'd be hitting 200yd headhunters with the 8

 

 

2* difference in dynamic loft equates to only a 1.5* difference in launch angle.    If you're hitting head hunters because of that, it's not the loft that's the problem - unless maybe the problem is that it's getting in your head and messing with your mind.

Edited by Stuart_G
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On 11/30/2021 at 5:42 PM, Valtiel said:

The more a ball spins, the greater the force necessary to tilt its axis, which is what creates curvature. The possible gear effects imposed by a driver are also significant, so spin has to be tuned to account for this and for what your miss might be. What I mean by that is if your driver spins at 2,000rpm when you strike it in the center, then a high strike will dip well down into the 1k range. Mix in a little bit of a toe strike and now the horizontal gear effects are tilting the axis left without enough total spin to stabilize the ball, resulting in the dreaded duck hook. Now let's say you increase your driver loft so that center strike is now 2,700rpm. Those high toe strikes aren't diving down into the 1k range anymore, so those same horizontal gear effects aren't going to impact the curvature as much and what was previously a duck hook is now just a draw. This is what would be considered "forgiveness" in this context, and is really something specifically for someone whos misses are in places that reduce spin (higher and towards the toe). For someone that rarely/never misses there, and instead maybe misses lower and/or heel side, you can "tune" your center strikes to be much lower spin, because your misses are only going to increase it. Higher loft then wouldn't be considered "more forgiving", just shorter/spinnier. 

 

This thread is already necro'd so I'll join in..

 

I sure wish I read this post back in 2021 lol, would have saved me SO many penalty shots. I've always had a high toe miss and always had my drivers low spin and 9*. Was great when I hit the center and got 2050 spin of course, but I only recently realized that my toe misses were dipping down to like ~1200-1300 spin. The worst ones on GCQuad were legitimately like 700 spin.


Swapped to a 10.5* G425 Max and all of a sudden my high toes misses are 2200 spin and center strikes are 2700-2800. It is amazing how now the ball just ends up in the left rough instead of the left portion of the zip code.

 

This whole time I thought I just sucked with the driver when my swing wasn't on for the day

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