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Would a tour player take 250 down the middle?


Dr.Zevia

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2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

What happens when you don't do the average of the 14 holes as par fours but something more realistic and par fives mixed in?  Does it change that much?

Strokes gained is based on distance so the longer par 5 gives you more strokes to start and you will have a longer second so it netts off. Wont make a statistical difference. 

 

I did change the data above to correct it as per MtlJayMan. Would now correct it to state that only top 20 drivers in world golf wouldnt take 275 in the fairway. LPGA would def take both options.

 

Personally, including my driver my strokes gained last 14 rounds has been -3.07 including a record worst last round with it at -9.39. Leaving the big stick at home for Fridays round and can almost guarantee I will mitigate my "bad SG of the tee days" taking driver out of play. Personally its a bad club for me (always has been) and getting a new shaft built up to fix the ongoing issue (I hope). Hope the stats make better sense now.

 

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On 12/14/2021 at 8:29 AM, smashdn said:

 

No.  I'd take the 290 though.  But even that would still leave me at a disadvantage playing against my peers at times due to distance only.  I know guys driving 310 yard holes with 3 woods.  Club players with day jobs.  Why I firmly believe the distance stuff has gotten out of hand not just on tour, and not just at high level college play, this is podunk KY country club stuff.

 

Everybody I play with is off of @MtlJayMan's chart on the distance side.  270 is high school player driver distance.

Man I agree with this so much.  There are short hitters no doubt. But at my club 60 year olds move up to the front tee. Those jackasses stand and wait to drive par 4s from up there. Not the ladies tee. Just the front mens tee. That’s not golf.  

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52 minutes ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Strokes gained is based on distance so the longer par 5 gives you more strokes to start and you will have a longer second so it netts off. Wont make a statistical difference. 

 

I did change the data above to correct it as per MtlJayMan. Would now correct it to state that only top 20 drivers in world golf wouldnt take 275 in the fairway. LPGA would def take both options.

 

Personally, including my driver my strokes gained last 14 rounds has been -3.07 including a record worst last round with it at -9.39. Leaving the big stick at home for Fridays round and can almost guarantee I will mitigate my "bad SG of the tee days" taking driver out of play. Personally its a bad club for me (always has been) and getting a new shaft built up to fix the ongoing issue (I hope). Hope the stats make better sense now.

 

Your posts are interesting.  So in short the strokes gained mantra that’s spewed regularly isn’t necessarily true ?    Meaning whne someone claims it’s best to be closer to the hole no matter the lie , we can call that debunked or ? 

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14 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Your posts are interesting.  So in short the strokes gained mantra that’s spewed regularly isn’t necessarily true ?    Meaning whne someone claims it’s best to be closer to the hole no matter the lie , we can call that debunked or ? 

No.  It has never been that way.  Only the truly clueless make that claim.  Missing fairways matters, but just not as much as most folks think.  You also have to have a shot into the green.  If you hit it 350 in the rough behind a stand of trees that you can't apex, then almost anywhere else shorter where you aren't  blocked out is better.  Remember, only the Sith speak in absolutes.

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8 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

No.  It has never been that way.  Only the truly clueless make that claim.  Missing fairways matters, but just not as much as most folks think.  You also have to have a shot into the green.  If you hit it 350 in the rough behind a stand of trees that you can't apex, then almost anywhere else shorter where you aren't  blocked out is better.  Remember, only the Sith speak in absolutes.

Thank you !  At least someone knows that I’m not dreaming that up ….. it gets said here time after time.  

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2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Thank you !  At least someone knows that I’m not dreaming that up ….. it gets said here time after time.  

As I said, that is a great objective way to look at it (using off the tee strokes gained figures) one that a few members have tried to talked about in this thread and the other one related to it… obviously - it is hole dependent (penal rough or not), time dependent (first tee shot on a Thursday or back nine of a Major) and player related (mental aspect; if the last 8 drives ended up in the recovery zone) - that definitely plays into the equation (and it’s more than just an analytical debate)

 

But the idea is to look at it in the long run like it was meant by the OP… the break even point is a 265yds spot where you can drop it in the fairway (14 times per round) and don’t have to worry about your tee shot… you can’t go and say; well that hole has a 70yds wide fairway; I’ll hit it on that one - and number 11 has a narrow fairway and a creek at 270 so I’ll drop it on that one… it’s just a general idea; at what point would you take the deal…

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45 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

As I said, that is a great objective way to look at it (using off the tee strokes gained figures) one that a few members have tried to talked about in this thread and the other one related to it… obviously - it is hole dependent (penal rough or not), time dependent (first tee shot on a Thursday or back nine of a Major) and player related (mental aspect; if the last 8 drives ended up in the recovery zone) - that definitely plays into the equation (and it’s more than just an analytical debate)

 

But the idea is to look at it in the long run like it was meant by the OP… the break even point is a 265yds spot where you can drop it in the fairway (14 times per round) and don’t have to worry about your tee shot… you can’t go and say; well that hole has a 70yds wide fairway; I’ll hit it on that one - and number 11 has a narrow fairway and a creek at 270 so I’ll drop it on that one… it’s just a general idea; at what point would you take the deal…

Well. I commented early that I wouldn’t take it. And haven’t followed until now.  But I’ve been reflecting on my yearly stats roundup on decade and I can clearly say that for me , 265-275ish would probably get a yes I’ll do it vote from me. Even though my glaring deficiencies  on approach shot is 201-230. Because I believe that I can easily improve that section with some adjustments in club and focused practice.  It’s a distance I never practice. 
 

so yes. Give me 270 in the fairway and I’d take it on a 7500 yard course wind or no wind etc.    funny enough. I have a club for that.  And it’s crazy accurate.  
 

so this begs the question.  How can one calculate if driver is hurting more than helping using strokes gained ? I wonder if my stats break that out ?  It records tee dlib in each hole etc. I’m going to check and see . If so I’ll post the numbers. 

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20 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Well. I commented early that I wouldn’t take it. And haven’t followed until now.  But I’ve been reflecting on my yearly stats roundup on decade and I can clearly say that for me , 265-275ish would probably get a yes I’ll do it vote from me. Even though my glaring deficiencies  on approach shot is 201-230. Because I believe that I can easily improve that section with some adjustments in club and focused practice.  It’s a distance I never practice. 
 

so yes. Give me 270 in the fairway and I’d take it on a 7500 yard course wind or no wind etc.    funny enough. I have a club for that.  And it’s crazy accurate.  
 

so this begs the question.  How can one calculate if driver is hurting more than helping using strokes gained ? I wonder if my stats break that out ?  It records tee dlib in each hole etc. I’m going to check and see . If so I’ll post the numbers. 

That is a good question, but seems you would need data on the other side (i.e. use of other clubs) to make a comparison.

 

This is an interesting article (here is the punchline):

 

"So if Stenson is hitting a lot of fairway woods because he prioritizes hitting fairways, is he making the right play? In short, no.  I quoted a figure of 0.25 strokes gained if he adopts a similar club selection strategy to other bombers like Adam Scott. Such a gain would jump him from 24th best on Drives to 5th best. Playing more aggressively in situations where the field is hitting driver and he is currently hitting fairway wood would allow him to better exploit his ridiculous length and accuracy with driver, gaining that quarter of a stroke on the field and drawing closer to McIlroy and Spieth’s level at the top of the game."

 

 

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/henrik-stenson-loves-his-3-wood-too-much/comment-page-1/

 

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14 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

That is a good question, but seems you would need data on the other side (i.e. use of other clubs) to make a comparison.

 

This is an interesting article (here is the punchline):

 

"So if Stenson is hitting a lot of fairway woods because he prioritizes hitting fairways, is he making the right play? In short, no.  I quoted a figure of 0.25 strokes gained if he adopts a similar club selection strategy to other bombers like Adam Scott. Such a gain would jump him from 24th best on Drives to 5th best. Playing more aggressively in situations where the field is hitting driver and he is currently hitting fairway wood would allow him to better exploit his ridiculous length and accuracy with driver, gaining that quarter of a stroke on the field and drawing closer to McIlroy and Spieth’s level at the top of the game."

 

 

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/henrik-stenson-loves-his-3-wood-too-much/comment-page-1/

 

Right.  That’s one of those “ what if “ statements in my eyes.   It takes none of stenson driver woes into account. He had full blown yips with driver at one point.    It assumes that he can just hit driver as accurately as 3 wood.  He cannot. And he also doesn’t hit it proportionally farther.  He  hits 3 wood that good.  
 

this is the very type statement that bugs the crap out of me.  It’s vague , assuming , a bit arrogant , and misleading really.  Thanks for posting it.  Great example.  

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4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  That’s one of those “ what if “ statements in my eyes.   It takes none of stenson driver woes into account. He had full blown yips with driver at one point.    It assumes that he can just hit driver as accurately as 3 wood.  He cannot. And he also doesn’t hit it proportionally farther.  He  hits 3 wood that good.  
 

this is the very type statement that bugs the crap out of me.  It’s vague , assuming , a bit arrogant , and misleading really.  Thanks for posting it.  Great example.  

Agreed… 

 

Something that came out of Stensons jips was a realisation that he is a strong mid and long iron player. Not being able to hit driver meant he effectively “laid back”

 

His Diablo is also a strong 3 wood so he certainly isnt short with it.
 

Would be interested in seeing what his SG approach is from those relative distances and whether in his game, giving up 20 yards, gaining a fairway and hitting a 8 iron vs wedge does not improve his overall SG Tee to green.

 

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10 minutes ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Agreed… 

 

Something that came out of Stensons jips was a realisation that he is a strong mid and long iron player. Not being able to hit driver meant he effectively “laid back”

 

His Diablo is also a strong 3 wood so he certainly isnt short with it.
 

Would be interested in seeing what his SG approach is from those relative distances and whether in his game, giving up 20 yards, gaining a fairway and hitting a 8 iron vs wedge does not improve his overall SG Tee to green.

 

Agree. It would be fascinating to know.  

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Some stats from the last year (one of his worst on record) but a clear advantage over the field at longer distances. However, even in his own game he is similar if not stronger with the longer clubs. 

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44 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 

this is the very type statement that bugs the crap out of me.  It’s vague , assuming , a bit arrogant , and misleading really.  Thanks for posting it.  Great example.  

Agree completely - as mentioned, the whole idea of Strokes Gained is to see in the grand scheme of it all, including all shots in every scenario, if that particular shot/round/tourney was great/good/ok/bad/awful compared to what your peers do… it is a very interesting concept - taken globally to draw conclusions on your strengths and weaknesses - but as we all know: golf is hole, time, player, circonstances dependent…

 

And I can’t figure out why those that want to prove it’s utility, do it with anectodal useless examples time and time again - shooting themselves in the foot and only feeding those that find it useless in the process…

 

Of course, I’ll go for a 2pt conversion on the last play of the game down by one if my place kicker just broke his leg during the game…

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On 12/14/2021 at 8:29 AM, smashdn said:

 

No.  I'd take the 290 though.  But even that would still leave me at a disadvantage playing against my peers at times due to distance only.  I know guys driving 310 yard holes with 3 woods.  Club players with day jobs.  Why I firmly believe the distance stuff has gotten out of hand not just on tour, and not just at high level college play, this is podunk KY country club stuff.

 

Everybody I play with is off of @MtlJayMan's chart on the distance side.  270 is high school player driver distance.

 

Completely agree. All of the local amateur events around here are full of guys who carry it 300+ and they were not college golfers. The equipment and knowledge available makes it extremely easy for any motivated, healthy male under 50 years old to hit it 300+ consistently.

 

The thing that people are forgetting about the pros is that their 310+ averages are ALREADY them dialing back to find a perfect combination of distance and accuracy. Almost all of them have at least another 20 yards in the bag if they really wanted it. Bryson seems to be the only one willing to use it. 

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33 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Agree completely - as mentioned, the whole idea of Strokes Gained is to see in the grand scheme of it all, including all shots in every scenario, if that particular shot/round/tourney was great/good/ok/bad/awful compared to what your peers do… it is a very interesting concept - taken globally to draw conclusions on your strengths and weaknesses - but as we all know: golf is hole, time, player, circonstances dependent…

 

And I can’t figure out why those that want to prove it’s utility, do it with anectodal useless examples time and time again - shooting themselves in the foot and only feeding those that find it useless in the process…

 

Of course, I’ll go for a 2pt conversion on the last play of the game down by one if my place kicker just broke his leg during the game…

Well. My theory is that some take solace in numbers. Specifically they like the decision to be made for Them by  analytics . Never willing to see any outlier or micro circumstances.  I’m not that person. Its like guys who prefer manual transmissions vs those that swear an automatic is more efficient.  But I digress. 
 

I’ll give you my two examples of players  I wish we could enter an alternate dimension and view in a different strategy.   Phil mickelson in his prime , and Bryson D.    If we could watch both pursue the game without a driver.  But still with their power , but concentrate on accuracy of approach and building a wedge game ( that one more Bryson than phil ) would they win more ? My wild a** guess is yes.  But I’d love to know.  

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6 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  That’s one of those “ what if “ statements in my eyes.   It takes none of stenson driver woes into account. He had full blown yips with driver at one point.    It assumes that he can just hit driver as accurately as 3 wood.  He cannot. And he also doesn’t hit it proportionally farther.  He  hits 3 wood that good.  
 

this is the very type statement that bugs the crap out of me.  It’s vague , assuming , a bit arrogant , and misleading really.  Thanks for posting it.  Great example.  

Agreed 100%.....It doesn't take in the factor of overswinging affecting your rhythm and all other aspects of a tour pros game. If you look at Rory trying to get more distance, and he's one of the top five in driving is total madness. Once your game is gone it can take years to get it back..........I'd take Stenson opinion over any study.

If bomb and gouge was the way to go there would be more players using it than Phil and Bryson.....IMO 

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5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Agree completely - as mentioned, the whole idea of Strokes Gained is to see in the grand scheme of it all, including all shots in every scenario, if that particular shot/round/tourney was great/good/ok/bad/awful compared to what your peers do… it is a very interesting concept - taken globally to draw conclusions on your strengths and weaknesses - but as we all know: golf is hole, time, player, circonstances dependent…

 

And I can’t figure out why those that want to prove it’s utility, do it with anectodal useless examples time and time again - shooting themselves in the foot and only feeding those that find it useless in the process…

 

Of course, I’ll go for a 2pt conversion on the last play of the game down by one if my place kicker just broke his leg during the game…

Strokes gained is just a tool to give the gamblers something to work with....... Golf is the ultimate betting game....you can bet on ever shot, every hole and every tournament.

 

That's why shot link and all it's date is coming to the LPGA and the Campions tour.

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5 hours ago, ewaldbeukes said:

Some stats from the last year (one of his worst on record) but a clear advantage over the field at longer distances. However, even in his own game he is similar if not stronger with the longer clubs. 

FE5A9D97-815B-4749-A550-8377EDEFC2BF.png

This will tell you whatever you want it to tell you .......that's what data is for. guess I'll just stick to wins, now there's something that you can compare to other players

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10 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Your posts are interesting.  So in short the strokes gained mantra that’s spewed regularly isn’t necessarily true ?    Meaning whne someone claims it’s best to be closer to the hole no matter the lie , we can call that debunked or ? 

Truthfully, I am a stats junkie, and strokes gained are a sort of "hmmm, that's interesting" kind of thing, but has no bearing on how I analyze my own game. It is something to look at with the pros, but I'm not certain how accurate or relevant it could even be to amateurs.

 

The basic philosophy (initially) was to be able to compare a golfer to the field. Someone that shoots 64 on a day where the average of the day was 68 has 4 strokes-gained-total. Hit 32 total putts on a day when the average of the field was 34, and you've got 2 strokes-gained-putting. Etc., etc. Useful because it takes into account conditions. Someone might be having a bad day driving, but if there are (for instance) really windy conditions, you may still have strokes-gained-driving because everyone is having a similarly tough (or even worse) time. 

 

Problem is, while pro tourneys have armies of stats people collecting every data point conceivable on every player (in fact, most pro sports have now become quite data driven), how does an amateur even collect them? Yes, if you are at a club, and most players post scores in the handicap system, you can get a good idea of what the total average is that day. But - there would still be no stats on what the field's average putting, or tee-to-green would be. The stats are simply not recorded anywhere. If you are at a public course you'd have no clue what even the average score of the day was. 

 

I have talked to people who try to apply what they call "strokes-gained" to themselves ... i.e., "my average round round has 40 putts, but I had 38 today" - i.e., they had 2 strokes-gained-putting on themselves. But that actually has nothing to do with what the actual strokes-gained concept (as originally framed by Mark Broadie, a professor at Colombia University in 2007) meant. Heck, I was doing that long before 2007 - went through a phase where, for instance, where I not only wrote down my score at the end of every hole, I also recorded how many putts each hole took.

 

That isn't, strictly speaking however, what "strokes-gained-putting" means. It is a way of comparing players to the field that takes conditions into account. Some courses have greens that are more difficult than others. Some have more water, Some have rough that is relatively more punishing. Playing in high wind with rain is very different than playing on a calm, sunny day. So strokes gained is a way analyzing a player not just by his own raw stats, but by how his raw stats relate to every player playing a round, on that course, that day.

 

I pay attention to it as a fan (just because I love golf and I love stats). Have baseball friends that do the same thing - stats are every bit as detailed. You can know a pitcher's lifetime record against a given batter. Batting average used to be a primary stat for hitters. These days, you'll hear announcers talking about how player x has a y batting average against pitcher z. Very similar to strokes-gained in golf. There are the data required to run it through the algorithms at the pro level. There simply isn't at the amateur level. 

 

So it is fun, but has virtually nothing to do with what I'd look at to improve my own game. It just isn't an applicable stat. 

 

Just my $0.02.

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10 hours ago, bobfoster said:

Truthfully, I am a stats junkie, and strokes gained are a sort of "hmmm, that's interesting" kind of thing, but has no bearing on how I analyze my own game. It is something to look at with the pros, but I'm not certain how accurate or relevant it could even be to amateurs.

 

The basic philosophy (initially) was to be able to compare a golfer to the field. Someone that shoots 64 on a day where the average of the day was 68 has 4 strokes-gained-total. Hit 32 total putts on a day when the average of the field was 34, and you've got 2 strokes-gained-putting. Etc., etc. Useful because it takes into account conditions. Someone might be having a bad day driving, but if there are (for instance) really windy conditions, you may still have strokes-gained-driving because everyone is having a similarly tough (or even worse) time. 

 

Problem is, while pro tourneys have armies of stats people collecting every data point conceivable on every player (in fact, most pro sports have now become quite data driven), how does an amateur even collect them? Yes, if you are at a club, and most players post scores in the handicap system, you can get a good idea of what the total average is that day. But - there would still be no stats on what the field's average putting, or tee-to-green would be. The stats are simply not recorded anywhere. If you are at a public course you'd have no clue what even the average score of the day was. 

 

I have talked to people who try to apply what they call "strokes-gained" to themselves ... i.e., "my average round round has 40 putts, but I had 38 today" - i.e., they had 2 strokes-gained-putting on themselves. But that actually has nothing to do with what the actual strokes-gained concept (as originally framed by Mark Broadie, a professor at Colombia University in 2007) meant. Heck, I was doing that long before 2007 - went through a phase where, for instance, where I not only wrote down my score at the end of every hole, I also recorded how many putts each hole took.

 

That isn't, strictly speaking however, what "strokes-gained-putting" means. It is a way of comparing players to the field that takes conditions into account. Some courses have greens that are more difficult than others. Some have more water, Some have rough that is relatively more punishing. Playing in high wind with rain is very different than playing on a calm, sunny day. So strokes gained is a way analyzing a player not just by his own raw stats, but by how his raw stats relate to every player playing a round that day.

 

I pay attention to it as a fan (just because I love golf and I love stats). Have baseball friends that do the same thing - stats are every bit as detailed. You can know a pitcher's lifetime record against a given batter. Batting average used to be a primary stat for hitters. These days, you'll hear announcers talking about how player x has a y batting average against pitcher z. Very similar to strokes-gained in golf. There are the data required to run it through the algorithms at the pro level. There simply isn't at the amateur level. 

 

So it is fun, but has virtually nothing to do with what I'd look at to improve my own game. It just isn't an applicable stat. 

 

Just my $0.02.

Yep.  I agree completely.   I use it.  But honestly less and less do I care.    It can be useful as far as comparisons go , but it can also be a negative reinforcement merry-go-round if you’re seeing scores drop but not meeting goals on one category.  Yet you “ feel “ like you’re improving in that area. Putting and driving being the usual culprits to that.  To be + 2 or so strokes gained putting when compared to pga tour players , you really can’t miss inside 8 feet often. By that I mean less than once a round. We just don’t play conditions that allow that kind of consistency.  And a direct comparison to my weekly comps or even the state or county level events doesn’t exist.  It’s college kids or pga tour pros as far as I know for the collected strokes gained data.  
 

So yes. For a confined situation like a tour of mostly same guys week after week. I get it.  Otherwise. I think it’s just meh.  I’m tired of thinking about it.  It hasn’t helped me.  
 

stats that do help me are proximity for yardage ranges , GIR for yardage ranges , and shortgame conversion percentages ( sand saves per yardage etc ) .  Add in penalty % off the tee and you can see what you need to work on. 

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21 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Well. My theory is that some take solace in numbers. Specifically they like the decision to be made for Them by  analytics . Never willing to see any outlier or micro circumstances.  I’m not that person. Its like guys who prefer manual transmissions vs those that swear an automatic is more efficient.  But I digress. 
 

I’ll give you my two examples of players  I wish we could enter an alternate dimension and view in a different strategy.   Phil mickelson in his prime , and Bryson D.    If we could watch both pursue the game without a driver.  But still with their power , but concentrate on accuracy of approach and building a wedge game ( that one more Bryson than phil ) would they win more ? My wild a** guess is yes.  But I’d love to know.  

If "yips" off the tee is why Stenson switched to the three wood, then I agree, none of the strokes gained matter except that the article showed, based on statistics, that Henson would have still gained more strokes off the tee without making the switch.  It doesn't necessarily mean he would've played better/worse or won more/less.  Stenson clearly felt he was better for it.  That is the human element that is near impossible to quantify in any meaningful statistical analysis.

 

As to Mickleson or Bryson playing on tour without a driver and being better or winning more, I don't think so.  Distance is half the game, accuracy being the other, and you gain your biggest distance advantage off of the tee.  Driver is pretty much the only club you want to go as far as possible. Almost every time.  The rest are used primarily for distance control. 

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53 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

If "yips" off the tee is why Stenson switched to the three wood, then I agree, none of the strokes gained matter except that the article showed, based on statistics, that Henson would have still gained more strokes off the tee without making the switch.  It doesn't necessarily mean he would've played better/worse or won more/less.  Stenson clearly felt he was better for it.  That is the human element that is near impossible to quantify in any meaningful statistical analysis.

 

As to Mickleson or Bryson playing on tour without a driver and being better or winning more, I don't think so.  Distance is half the game, accuracy being the other, and you gain your biggest distance advantage off of the tee.  Driver is pretty much the only club you want to go as far as possible. Almost every time.  The rest are used primarily for distance control. 

Right. In theory.  I’m just wondering if prime Phil or Bryson , both flying a 2 wood or strong 3 wood 300-310 yards wouldnt score more consistently  over a career ?  Sort of the “ 300 in the fairway vs 330 all over the place “ question.  

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On 12/1/2021 at 10:05 PM, 2bGood said:

Your hypothetical question is not really hypothetical. Most PGA pros would hit the fairway nearly all the time if they dialled back to 250. No is trying this though. 

 

The only guy really going in this direction in recent memory is Henrick Stenson and his frequent 3-wood off the tee. The only numbers I can find are Trackman saying he carries it around 269 with a total of 284. So, would anyone want to hit the ball 34 yards shorter than the guy most willing to give up distance? Eh, I don't think so.

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Right. In theory.  I’m just wondering if prime Phil or Bryson , both flying a 2 wood or strong 3 wood 300-310 yards wouldnt score more consistently  over a career ?  Sort of the “ 300 in the fairway vs 330 all over the place “ question.  

 

I'd be surprised if Bryson hasn't tinkered with that very idea, run the numbers and determined, in his own "scientific" way, that the accuracy to be gained would not be worth the loss in distance. 

 

As for Phil, who knows.  In his prime and winning Majors he was Top 30 driving distance pretty consistently.  I don't think he wins as much laying back.  Can't imagine a player at the top in that category giving up the distance, unless, like Stenson, it's a yips thing and you just can't control the driver.  Yet here he is, in his own words, and he still whacks a 47 inch driver:

 

 

I guess ultimately he didn't like giving up those, as he says, 10, 12, 15 yards.😂😂

 

Distance has always been coveted in golf.  No amateur ever says I hit it too far and I think unfortunately, the Pro game today has made distance the dark side of golf.  It's much better and reverent to be short but accurate and "honor" the traditions of the game. 😁

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5 hours ago, oikos1 said:

 

I'd be surprised if Bryson hasn't tinkered with that very idea, run the numbers and determined, in his own "scientific" way, that the accuracy to be gained would not be worth the loss in distance. 

 

As for Phil, who knows.  In his prime and winning Majors he was Top 30 driving distance pretty consistently.  I don't think he wins as much laying back.  Can't imagine a player at the top in that category giving up the distance, unless, like Stenson, it's a yips thing and you just can't control the driver.  Yet here he is, in his own words, and he still whacks a 47 inch driver:

 

 

I guess ultimately he didn't like giving up those, as he says, 10, 12, 15 yards.😂😂

 

Distance has always been coveted in golf.  No amateur ever says I hit it too far and I think unfortunately, the Pro game today has made distance the dark side of golf.  It's much better and reverent to be short but accurate and "honor" the traditions of the game. 😁

That literally describes exactly how I’ve felt about the modern mailbox on a stick.  It still amazes me how much folks love  the big heads.  I don’t for the life of me see why 

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On 12/2/2021 at 7:52 PM, goobers80 said:


Yardages are misleading and inflated. No way in hell they all hit it 250 every tee shot. I saw leaders at a recent event on tv carrying it 230 tops. And a couple were above average hitters.   Some can but most cant. 
 

Have played a few on Symetra and q school and not even close there either. Some can move it but 250 in middle of fairway on a LPGA course ? With any decent iron / wedge play you would be top 5 in world with putts going in. 
 

Would have to be an idiot not to if you could. 

Just because you say a lot of things doesn't make it true.

 

Numbers are numbers.  They either do or don't hit it that far.  I know how average driving distance is calculated.   Yes, this is based on select holes where they're expected to use driver and hit as far as possible.  If you're playing a super tight course, then yeah, maybe 250 works for them.  That's not generally the case.

Recorded statistics say 250 is very bad.  You say it isn't.  You'll excuse me if I'm inclined to not take your word as gospel here.

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On 12/2/2021 at 3:48 PM, smashdn said:

 

How many do the longest 15 have?  Compare that to the next 25 players (16 through 41) and see what shakes out.  (I haven't done this but I bet there is a marked difference.  

 

Based on the entire 2021 season, looking at the average driving distance ranking.

Rank Avg
1-15 313.8
16-41 306.4
42-100 299.5
101-196 290.3

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3 hours ago, amace04 said:

Just because you say a lot of things doesn't make it true.

 

Numbers are numbers.  They either do or don't hit it that far.  I know how average driving distance is calculated.   Yes, this is based on select holes where they're expected to use driver and hit as far as possible.  If you're playing a super tight course, then yeah, maybe 250 works for them.  That's not generally the case.

Recorded statistics say 250 is very bad.  You say it isn't.  You'll excuse me if I'm inclined to not take your word as gospel here.

She was talking about LPGA where the distances are a little inflated by firm fairways.  Also 250 is pretty reasonable distance for LPGA players so the discussion is a bit more interesting.  I still think many LPGA pros would only take 250 in the fairway for majors only.

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