Huggan column: Time to make pros use ‘real’ woods

[cohee]

https://www.thegolfpaper.co.uk/featured/2034/huggan-column-time-to-make-pros-use-real-woods/

 

I was reading some of his old columns and thought everyone might enjoy this one.

[Itsjustagame]

Get off my lawn!

If Ian was so concerned he should have played gutta percha balls.

[cohee]

Did I accidentally post this one in the Toaster on a Stick section?

[Foozle]

1 hour ago, cohee said:

https://www.thegolfpaper.co.uk/featured/2034/huggan-column-time-to-make-pros-use-real-woods/

 

I was reading some of his old columns and thought everyone might enjoy this one.

I enjoyed it very much and agree completely with his sentiments. For me,  modern equipment has detracted a lot from the game. Yes, it has made it easier and perhaps that brings and retains more people in the game but I much prefer the challenge, enjoyment and satisfaction of hotting shots with proper clubs that reward the good, punish the bad and basically tell it like it is. I say that as another lapsed handicap player who now plays for as much fun as the course and the equipment can give me.

Can't resist adding pictures of some of the clubs from the hands of the master referred to in the article, Harry Busson.

[NRJyzr]

I tend to agree with the sentiment, but I don't believe it's the distance that's killing the game.  It's the relative lack of penalty for swinging out of your shoes that exists now.  

 

I know a lot about that in my own game.  LOL

 

Faldo has mentioned something along these lines, saying that tee game skill has been largely removed from the game.  In times past, the natural self-limiting aspect to increased distance took care of itself, but that has all but disappeared.

 

That lack of curve could be answered with a largish drop in the MOI limit.  Remember how few pros used the SLDR, because they couldn't control it?  Going to that level, or even a bit less, would get the job done IMHO.

 

Some have pointed to the ball as the source of the "straightness," but those same balls were in the hands of pros who wouldn't play the SLDR due to the lack of control.  😉

 

Couple random thoughts in the middle of general ledger cutoff day...

 

[elwhippy]

Harry Busson. Master craftsman. Would love to own one of his drivers. 

[Swingingk]

9 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

I tend to agree with the sentiment, but I don't believe it's the distance that's killing the game.  It's the relative lack of penalty for swinging out of your shoes that exists now.  

 

I know a lot about that in my own game.  LOL

 

Faldo has mentioned something along these lines, saying that tee game skill has been largely removed from the game.  In times past, the natural self-limiting aspect to increased distance took care of itself, but that has all but disappeared.

 

That lack of curve could be answered with a largish drop in the MOI limit.  Remember how few pros used the SLDR, because they couldn't control it?  Going to that level, or even a bit less, would get the job done IMHO.

 

Some have pointed to the ball as the source of the "straightness," but those same balls were in the hands of pros who wouldn't play the SLDR due to the lack of control.  😉

 

Couple random thoughts in the middle of general ledger cutoff day...

 

Interesting point.  I enjoyed the article and also tend to agree with the sentiment but I can't help thinking that perhaps that's what I'm really thinking about: the sentiment or sentimentality of a bygone era.  Yes I agree that perhaps the modern game has gone off the rails a tad and yes it sure would be cool to see the tour playing real woods again but would it really solve any of the "problems" we think we have with the game as it stands today?  I tend to think not.  I agree with NRJyzr in that maybe we should be placing some kind of limits on club and ball performance instead of just mandating the use of wood.

Wooden woods are really, really nifty but we're only kidding ourselves if we think that modern technology wouldn't bastardize the whole concept and leave us purists grunting with disgust.  Imagine going into a pro shop to see the new woods and being met with glossy pink paint jobs, weird shapes, and goofy looking "Nanoblaster Proton Tube Ceramafusion Insert Technology"?  Yuk!  It wouldn't be long before the engineers squeezed 350 yards out of persimmon anyway. 

 

I like my woods just like they are:  beautiful in my hands and cheap on eBay.  

[LeftyMac]

It's the same argument that MLB use isn't it?  How would MLB be today if they had been as lax around the bat and ball as the USGA and R&A have been around clubs and balls?  The argument that all that distance doesn't matter falls over when you look at what it is doing to 99% of courses in the world.  Imagine if a Fenway Park had to be bulldozed to build something 50% larger because batters were using massive carbon fibre bats that made every hit a home run.  Would baseball be the same game?

[Jiggered]

Good article but I agree with @Swingingk, there's no point in trying to push back to persimmon, or even laminated woods. 

Good tight grained persimmon wood became scarce back in the day and we don't want what good new growth there is being cut down to make the best new drivers, it would soon become scarce again. Even worse, we'd see our finest classic blocks rocketing in price and being cut and chopped about to make a club for today's tour players! 

 

There would have to be very strict rules on how laminates could be made to prevent manufacturers circumventing the object of the change and anyway, they aren't hard wearing like today's materials and even sealed blocks are prone to water penetration.

 

I think we just need to bring back the characteristics that made persimmon woods such a large factor in the classic game, and separated the greats from the merely very good.

That means a limit on head size and a limit on the coefficient of restitution.

 

This should be achievable quite simply by setting a rule that the head must be made from a single piece of solid polymer with an insert within certain specifications.

 

But manufacturers wouldn't like it as it would prevent them making outlandish claims for the latest "tech development" to give the hacker an extra 10 yards, so it'll never happen because the manufacturers hold such sway over the R&A and the USGA these days.

[Itsjustagame]

Making the game harder will not grow the sport.

For 99% of golfers world wide existing courses are long enough and hard enough with the modern equipment. 

Why would we change the entire game to solve a problem that only exists for the top 1% of golfers?

[NRJyzr]

43 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Making the game harder will not grow the sport.

For 99% of golfers world wide existing courses are long enough and hard enough with the modern equipment. 

Why would we change the entire game to solve a problem that only exists for the top 1% of golfers?

 

Who said this should be a wholesale change??  Amateur baseball and softball players aren't required to use wood bats, yet MLB players are. 

 

Enforce the change for top levels comps, much as has been done with the groove rule for the past 11-12 seasons.

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by NRJyzr

[Itsjustagame]

Amateur athletes in most sports rarely if ever get to play on the same venue as professionals. A unique part of golf is playing on the same courses using the same equipment as the pros.

Personally I wouldn't screw this up with bifurcation.

 

[BIG STU]

20 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

I tend to agree with the sentiment, but I don't believe it's the distance that's killing the game.  It's the relative lack of penalty for swinging out of your shoes that exists now.  

 

I know a lot about that in my own game.  LOL

 

Faldo has mentioned something along these lines, saying that tee game skill has been largely removed from the game.  In times past, the natural self-limiting aspect to increased distance took care of itself, but that has all but disappeared.

 

That lack of curve could be answered with a largish drop in the MOI limit.  Remember how few pros used the SLDR, because they couldn't control it?  Going to that level, or even a bit less, would get the job done IMHO.

 

Some have pointed to the ball as the source of the "straightness," but those same balls were in the hands of pros who wouldn't play the SLDR due to the lack of control.  😉

 

Couple random thoughts in the middle of general ledger cutoff day...

 

IMHO the ball is where it is at--- Last week when I played with Cardoustie he hits the ball great. Now he is 10 years younger than I am but I will admit when I was his age I did not hit the ball mearly as high or far as he does with modern metals. With that being said I gave him a beautiful blonde Penna driver with a X-100 shaft. He did hit a practice ball with it on our 18th hole since we had no one in front or behind us. Now he hit I think a modern Callaway and he hit it good sounded like a .22 rifle going off. He of course hit it further than I can but about the same height. I wished I had thrown a balata or wound ball in my bag for him to hit. I had just cleaned out and switched bags ( I know again) and had left the Elite 90s in my Burton bag. But that reinforces the fact the modern ball does not spin like the old wound balls and I told him that.

[NRJyzr]

6 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Amateur athletes in most sports rarely if ever get to play on the same venue as professionals. A unique part of golf is playing on the same courses using the same equipment as the pros.

Personally I wouldn't screw this up with bifurcation.

 

 

The groove rule already gave us bifurcation, even if it is for a limited duration, through the end of 2023...

[Foozle]

43 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

Making the game harder will not grow the sport.

For 99% of golfers world wide existing courses are long enough and hard enough with the modern equipment. 

Why would we change the entire game to solve a problem that only exists for the top 1% of golfers?

The Genie is out of the bottle and there is no prospect of putting it back in. 

Where I am coming from is a regret that we allowed the cork to be pulled in the first place. We wouldn't then be talking about making the game harder, just keeping it where it is.

The impact of modern equipment on courses is another big regret, as is the environmental cost associated with it. As Leftymac says, most courses have undergone some alteration to keep pace with increased distance. My own course was laid out 130 years ago, we have exhausted the scope to add yardage and are having to infill fairway bunkers and rebuild 30 yards + further down as even the high handicap players are sailing drives over them. It is money we can I'll afford to spend and, whether we like it or not, habitat damage that should really be avoided.

Playing persimmon with lower flight and more roll, the original bunkers and hazards are still relevant to me and a challenge to be negotiated. The replacements less so. Had equipment not advanced, these changes would not be necessary and the challenge of the course could have been maintained within the boundaries of the original field of play.

I watched our Club Championship final this year and the longest approach on any hole was a 5 iron, most were wedges. As I play the course with my vintage gear, I regularly hit fairway wood and long iron approaches - far more variety and challenge. For me that is what the game is about. It is frequently frustrating but I enjoy the bad shots more than the good ones I "get away with" when I have tried modern.

Rose tinted nostalgia? Yes, but it is way I love to play the game and, had the cork not been pulled, I can't help thinking everyone playing the game today would enjoy it that way too.

[BIG STU]

1 minute ago, Itsjustagame said:

Amateur athletes in most sports rarely if ever get to play on the same venue as professionals. A unique part of golf is playing on the same courses using the same equipment as the pros.

Personally I wouldn't screw this up with bifurcation.

 

I do agree with you 100% on principal---- In the real recreational world guys like the retirees at my club play their own rules in league play and play what equipment they want. They could care less what Joe Pro plays on any of the tours. Like most of us on the forum here do in just the opposite---  We play what we want to regardless if it is non conforming or not. I will say and this is a stretch that less than 5% of all that play the game keep a proper handicap ( dead on the rules) and play stipulated events. On the other hand if we play our vintage equipment I feel that using the proper tees for us we can resonably play some courses. Other course designs more modern we would struggle with the persimmon because of forced carries etc. Before my accident there were some courses here that I could not play effectively because even at proper tees I could not carry some hazards etc with modern metals. And I am not the only one. The TPC course here is a good example. Now I am not going to knock it because it is a great course and IMHO is a great design if one can carry some approaches 175 180 yards and I said carry not roll. Now back 20 years ago I could play it because I had the SS to launch the ball high. On the bifurcation deal frankly I have mixed feelings on the more traditional level I agree with you on someone up and coming and maybe somehow being to make a living at the game. In the real world on my end I guess I fall in on the old fart level as I could care less what the USGA The R&A or The PGA Tour does I just play and enjoy these days

[NRJyzr]

6 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

IMHO the ball is where it is at--- Last week when I played with Cardoustie he hits the ball great. Now he is 10 years younger than I am but I will admit when I was his age I did not hit the ball mearly as high or far as he does with modern metals. With that being said I gave him a beautiful blonde Penna driver with a X-100 shaft. He did hit a practice ball with it on our 18th hole since we had no one in front or behind us. Now he hit I think a modern Callaway and he hit it good sounded like a .22 rifle going off. He of course hit it further than I can but about the same height. I wished I had thrown a balata or wound ball in my bag for him to hit. I had just cleaned out and switched bags ( I know again) and had left the Elite 90s in my Burton bag. But that reinforces the fact the modern ball does not spin like the old wound balls and I told him that.

 

That spin of the wound balls is the only real difference between them and the modern ball, if you remove the comparative lack of durability from the equation.  When I found those HT-100s several years ago, it turned out they were fairly new.  I was able to compare them directly against modern balls, and they compared very favorably.  Off the tee on equivalent contact, there was a 4-6 yard difference in carry.

 

The trick was having to change the equipment to allow for the greater spin rate.  You had to work at it to get them to roll out like the Chrome+ or TP Black/TP Red I was playing at the time.  And even then, it was iffy.

 

That tends to follow the results of the ball tests that were done in the early 2000s.  There really wasn't much difference.  Phil can say he gained 30 yards off the tee as much as he wants, the driving distance stat says differently.  🤔  😉 

 

Side note:  I also mixed and matched drivers during that time; Fast 12 LS was the most used driver.  My tee game distances were fairly similar from round to round, regardless of Adams vs Ping Zing vs HT100 vs Chrome+.  I found it all very interesting.  FWIW, I was around 110mph at the time, not quite Tour level, but not "avg amateur" either.

 

[BIG STU]

12 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

The groove rule already gave us bifurcation, even if it is for a limited duration, through the end of 2023...

Yeah techinacally--- But most do not know the whole fact about the groove rule---- The mini tours in the SE went to the wedge rules a year after the PGA Tour adopted them--- The Carolinas Golf Association ( AM events only) went to it the minute the PGA Tour and USGA adopted it for stipuated events. And then I guess you could say we are bifuracatied in our own right as in folks like us play what we damn well please USGA be dammed

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

That spin of the wound balls is the only real difference between them and the modern ball, if you remove the comparative lack of durability from the equation.  When I found those HT-100s several years ago, it turned out they were fairly new.  I was able to compare them directly against modern balls, and they compared very favorably.  Off the tee on equivalent contact, there was a 4-6 yard difference in carry.

 

The trick was having to change the equipment to allow for the greater spin rate.  You had to work at it to get them to roll out like the Chrome+ or TP Black/TP Red I was playing at the time.  And even then, it was iffy.

 

That tends to follow the results of the ball tests that were done in the early 2000s.  There really wasn't much difference.  Phil can say he gained 30 yards off the tee as much as he wants, the driving distance stat says differently.  🤔  😉 

 

Side note:  I also mixed and matched drivers during that time; Fast 12 LS was the most used driver.  My tee game distances were fairly similar from round to round, regardless of Adams vs Ping Zing vs HT100 vs Chrome+.  I found it all very interesting.  FWIW, I was around 110mph at the time, not quite Tour level, but not "avg amateur" either.

 

Oh yeah absolutely-- On a dry tight fairway I can get more roll out with a properly struck persimmon with a wound ball than I can with a modern metal and modern ball bit I do not get as much carry with the persimmon. For me before I was hurt the total distance was about a 10 yard differential with the modern being overall further in the end.

 

Something I found out over my experimental time- Different balls react differently with different clubs-- Good example at one time the TM Penta balls went great off like my MP-33s but not as good off any of my Macs. On the opposite end of the scale the Pro V went best off the Macs but not as good off the MP-33s as the Penta. Go figure. 

Back in the day I preferred the fiber inserts in my drivers with the wound and balata balls because I had better control and got a little more distance. I had theorized that the ball compressed a little more and stayed a millsecond on the face longer which added to power and control--- A few years later a article by Mac O Grady cemented my own observations. Works basically the same with modern drivers ( in theory) with the trampoline effect with modern balls. That is why there are face deflection rules. The same basic theory applies today with the harder balls with insert putters. In other words they have the face compressing instead of the ball. You want to really feel a marshmellow effect? Try putting one of your HT-100s with a modern soft insert putter. You will get my overall view in just one putt

[BIG STU]

I am also going to add something about the groove rule that many do not understand.  The groove rule pertains to clubs with loft greater than 25*

My last comp as a Pro I played in a co sanctioned event with the CPGA and the Am end being handled by the CGA. It was sorta a thrown together event at the last minute on a 4th of July weekend due to the tourist golf being slow that time of the year. I am thinking this is around 2013. Anyhow the guy who called me is in the Carolinas section of the PGA and he informed the rules of competition were in place. He also told me that I would get called out on my VIP blades and 588 wedges. No problem I told him. I had my prototype Infiniti Tour Stragety CBs that had the USGA papers on them and a set of conforming Mizuno wedges. I did put my old dependable VIP 5 4 and 2 irons in the bag. I got called out by all things by an AM competetor that had nothing to do with our comp. One of the CPGA officials asked me if my clubs were conforming. I pulled out the paper work and he said not those but the Macgregors. I told him the Macs were conforming. Another official said no way those were made in the 70 or 80s. I told him true that they were 80s repops but were the same specs as the original 60s and 70s. He said well then unless you have papers on them they do not conform. I told him he needed to read the rule in its entirety. The had by then 3 of the talking heads scrounging the rule book they sheepishly amitted I was correct. I told them I knew that. They asked why I did not say something? I told them that it done no good arguing with the 3 stooges besides they were supposed to be PGA professionals and know the rules especially officiating a event. I added I guess the PGM school only taught them how to serve a good Hot Dog and book Motel packages and how to totally screw up a good club on a loft and lie machine. They left me alone after that. BTW I was in the 50 to 60 division and won my division that weekend. I think I won like $1200. That was my last Pro event because the minis were petering out here and I did not want to travel. I decided then and there not to play professionally anymore and not to persue getting my Am status back and playing CGA events. Glad I made that decision because I am having more fun than ever playing golf

[cohee]

22 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I added I guess the PGM school only taught them how to serve a good Hot Dog and book Motel packages and how to totally screw up a good club on a loft and lie machine. They left me alone after that.

 

 

😆😆😆

(and I'm a PGM washout, for what it's worth)

[NRJyzr]

53 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Something I found out over my experimental time- Different balls react differently with different clubs

 

100%

 

I really found this out when I was using my Mizuno MS-11s.  I switched to a ball (U Tri Extra Spin) that gave me a club and a half, maybe even two clubs, more distance with irons.  I tried it with my Golden Rams, it was different.

 

It was spin rates.  The Golden Rams didn't spin as much as the Mizunos, and flew lower than the Mizunos, in spite of having more loft.  The combination of lower spin with the higher flight gave me that distance bump.

 

What it really means is that launch conditions aren't something native to only drivers.  We tend to focus on drivers, but it's in play for everything.  (optimums have different requirements, of course)

 

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

100%

 

I really found this out when I was using my Mizuno MS-11s.  I switched to a ball (U Tri Extra Spin) that gave me a club and a half, maybe even two clubs, more distance with irons.  I tried it with my Golden Rams, it was different.

 

It was spin rates.  The Golden Rams didn't spin as much as the Mizunos, and flew lower than the Mizunos, in spite of having more loft.  The combination of lower spin with the higher flight gave me that distance bump.

 

What it really means is that launch conditions aren't something native to only drivers.  We tend to focus on drivers, but it's in play for everything.  (optimums have different requirements, of course)

 

Man I loved those Bridgestone U-Tri Tours I also loved the original Bridgestone Treo Softs too.

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, cohee said:

 

 

😆😆😆

(and I'm a PGM washout, for what it's worth)

I would say it proves you are smart--- When I was a class A it was all together different. I worked for my old man for years and all I had to do was the PAT test. Now we did have two of those PGM Schools here and one of them shut down even prior to the pandemic.  But from what I saw they were not that golf orenated. A lot of the bag drops used students and one day there was a bunch of the guys in our group playing Miura irons. One of the kids said that those were clone irons. Another time we were at a bag drop and some of the kids were making fun of my rusty lead taped old Macs. My bud who was with me is a lifetime PGA Master Member and he told them well why dont you guys put down some green and play him and his junk?  And Lord knows how many irons I have had to straighten out that those students bent up in class for folks. Had one kid tell me that the first thing they did in club class was "fit" and bend up their own clubs. Yep the PGM programs here did not impress me in the least. And I will save it for another day and time my views on the "modern" PGA of America

[cohee]

PGM students didn't get to play for free at the university course (or at least have it discounted and folded into your tuition or something). That pretty much says it all about how that program was being run. It was a marketing degree for frat boys.

[cohee]

I agree with everyone that it would be awful if the pros had to play persimmon and the values spiked. But I'm already priced out of the Wood Brothers and the best Macs anyway! I can imagine a few posters here selling out and retiring to a tropical island somewhere - I've seen those pics of staff bags crammed with choice clubs. 😀

[Swingingk]

6 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Another time we were at a bag drop and some of the kids were making fun of my rusty lead taped old Macs. My bud who was with me is a lifetime PGA Master Member and he told them well why dont you guys put down some green and play him and his junk?

Love it!  Damn Stu I'd lay down real money to watch that go down.  That would be some pure awesome right there!

[LeftyMac]

The game is already bifurcated.  There are so many balls that the pro's play (7 or 8 variants of the TP5 for example) that are not available for retail sale.  Likewise the clubs they use are not coming off a shelf in the pro shop.  All that before you look at the way courses are set up (one type of sand) to preferred lies because it "might" rain later in the day.  I used to watch a fair bit of pro golf, it's now so boring I can't get interested.

[Swingingk]

31 minutes ago, LeftyMac said:

The game is already bifurcated.  There are so many balls that the pro's play (7 or 8 variants of the TP5 for example) that are not available for retail sale.  Likewise the clubs they use are not coming off a shelf in the pro shop.  All that before you look at the way courses are set up (one type of sand) to preferred lies because it "might" rain later in the day.  I used to watch a fair bit of pro golf, it's now so boring I can't get interested.

I agree.  Not a fan of the current TV golf either.  I do really love the old Shell WWoG programs though and watch them again and again.  As a matter of fact I am out in my shop right now, tinkering with a Zebra putter and watching the Byron Nelson vs Gene Littler at Pine Valley match playing in the background.  Now THAT is real golf!

[OnTheBag]

When I went on the bag full time, persimmon and hickory were still the flavor of choice.  The names on the hats and bags are relegated to the bargain bin and ebay now, but the quality of golf in my opinion was better.  Those guys (and some of us) could really manage ball flight because the equipment wouldn't do it for us.  

 

Remember when -1 or +1 used to win the US Open or when Seve won the Masters in '86 at -9 after shooting -7 in the final round?  The creativity and skill are different in today's game.  Oh it's still there but is just different.  

 

But to someone's point, it is the power that has changed today's game.  My last 3 gigs were in the LPGA.  Their game reminds me of the old PGA game.  It is more about position and finesse than grip it and rip it.  Take someone like Lydia Ko for example.  Her entire course management strategy is built around the approach and short game.  Very similar to Ray Floyd or Tom Watson.  

 

I also agree that the PGA doesn't punish the miss like they used to.  The players have no disincentive against swinging for the fences.  When your scrambling starts with a 56 or 60 deg wedge, there's room to recover.  Back in the 80's and early 90's, that same scramble would have started with an 8i or 9i.  

 

Anyway....I'm starting to ramble.  My wife says it's all I'm good at anymore.