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Let it fly… Hovland style?


MtlJayMan
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Thread is timed with Viktor’s recent success – but a general fan of his swing (who wouldn’t be?)… and without looking at his elite ball striking (early lead wrist flexion; little ROC; hard pivot) – if we focus on the P3-P5 range pattern – he’s exhibiting a huge across the line motion / ‘flying elbow’… with a transition showing massive external shoulder rotation / humerus forward (without dropping that trail shoulder) – coupled with lead wrist flexing (and trail wrist extending) at the top -> awesome shallowing move that allows him to pivot aggressively…

 

My question is why isn’t that type of motion P3-P5ish more mainstream as it seems to be a ‘relatively easy’ way to shallow the club / send the COM behind the hands – coupled with a Rose drill type of ‘delaying pivot’… compared to a turn-turn laid off approach that can rapidly lead to slight OTT if the player has any sort of beeline hand path action – and the usual suspect compensations ensuing; stall, flip…

 

Any big drawback to that type of motion usually seen with amateurs - matchups issues, difficult sequencing, too much trail shoulder drop (?)

vall.JPG.a06e0fb2f17747d3614163ff7a318e37.JPG

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havent had an in person lesson in many years, but the extension of the lead wrist gets talked about a lot here, probably inspired by dj, morikawa, hovland etc.. 

 

I try to implement it and certainly believe in it, but I think you have to be quite into swing theory in an academic sense to understand it. I only understand it to a limited extent. The average golfer I see getting lessons isnt really prepared to think about it or practise it to the degree required to have any success with it, and I think pro's probably know this.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

havent had an in person lesson in many years, but the extension of the lead wrist gets talked about a lot here, probably inspired by dj, morikawa, hovland etc.. 

 

I try to implement it and certainly believe in it, but I think you have to be quite into swing theory in an academic sense to understand it. I only understand it to a limited extent. The average golfer I see getting lessons isnt really prepared to think about it or practise it to the degree required to have any success with it, and I think pro's probably know this.

Interesting take - and surely has some truth with teachers wanting to keep it simple with their students and not going into flexion/extension ulnar/radial type discussions... and I guess people associate rapidly 'bowed' lead wrist (DJ, Rahm, Morikawa, Hovland) at the top to 'I need to do that' - while it is definitely more of a matchup (grip / lead wrist / trail wrist)... and the early transiton lead wrist flexing / trail wrist extending action that sends the COM of the club behind the hand path that is the benefical move to square the clubface... 

 

I wanted to discuss also the 'flying elbow' / across the line action that seems to be an easy way to assure that you send the COM of the club behind your hand path (obvisouly coupled with good external shoulder rotation)... You let the momentum of the clubhead loop in - and your early ('humerus forward' + lead wrist flexing) action -> automatic shallowing... knowing that what, 95% of ams have OTT -> EE action - why isn't it a more mainstream teaching method?... people dropping their trail shoulder instead? other?

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5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Thread is timed with Viktor’s recent success – but a general fan of his swing (who wouldn’t be?)… and without looking at his elite ball striking (early lead wrist flexion; little ROC; hard pivot) – if we focus on the P3-P5 range pattern – he’s exhibiting a huge across the line motion / ‘flying elbow’… with a transition showing massive external shoulder rotation / humerus forward (without dropping that trail shoulder) – coupled with lead wrist flexing (and trail wrist extending) at the top -> awesome shallowing move that allows him to pivot aggressively…

 

My question is why isn’t that type of motion P3-P5ish more mainstream as it seems to be a ‘relatively easy’ way to shallow the club / send the COM behind the hands – coupled with a Rose drill type of ‘delaying pivot’… compared to a turn-turn laid off approach that can rapidly lead to slight OTT if the player has any sort of beeline hand path action – and the usual suspect compensations ensuing; stall, flip…

 

Any big drawback to that type of motion usually seen with amateurs - matchups issues, difficult sequencing, too much trail shoulder drop (?)

vall.JPG.a06e0fb2f17747d3614163ff7a318e37.JPG

That camera angle makes it appear more across than it actually is. 

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1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

This is all that matters:

Hovland2.png.9993397dc345f9bc2cf50581f83cc7d7.png

 

You can teach positions all day.  But unless you understand why he's here and what his intent is from here, it won't matter. 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Agreed - and even then that image doesn’t do justice of the motions; on how he made sure the COM of the club is behind his hand path + arms/body matchup that allows for an aggressive pivot 

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5 hours ago, hammersia said:

Only seen him on the practice ground once in person and I’ve got to be really honest - I didn’t think his striking was as elite as many of the other players.  Not that it matters much, great player still. 

 

This is pretty surprising, cause VH is a walking f**king stipeshow

 

Has one of the heaviest strikes out there as well

 

 

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3 hours ago, jobin said:

What the h*ll is a 'stipeshow'?  Probably a mis-spelling but the meaning is entirely  beyond my caring.

Well, maybe some obscure Norwegian comedy act. Who knows?

This is a stipe show.  
 

 

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I love his swing. Huge fan of Viktor also. I've tried to copy his style from time to time and honestly you have to be a crazy athlete to pull off some of his moves. I am a good athlete but his positions are hard to hit. He takes it back inside with a closed face, gets very vertical to the top, arms and hands come out on the downswing but he's able to pivot hard and avoid coming over the top. Truly amazing swing. 

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11 minutes ago, reefrash1043 said:

I love his swing. Huge fan of Viktor also. I've tried to copy his style from time to time and honestly you have to be a crazy athlete to pull off some of his moves. I am a good athlete but his positions are hard to hit. He takes it back inside with a closed face, gets very vertical to the top, arms and hands come out on the downswing but he's able to pivot hard and avoid coming over the top. Truly amazing swing. 

This. I watch his swing and the amount of leverage he creates is unusual even at that level.

It looks like he takes it back very vertical and then has some very quick routing and twisting move at the top that allows him to just unload on the ball.

Looks massively strong for being smaller than many out there.

But not like Rory who is basically straight back and then comes back around with raw timing and power.

It's like VH creates a lever through either a side bend or something else I can't really figure out.

 

 

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9 hours ago, reefrash1043 said:

I love his swing. Huge fan of Viktor also. I've tried to copy his style from time to time and honestly you have to be a crazy athlete to pull off some of his moves. I am a good athlete but his positions are hard to hit. He takes it back inside with a closed face, gets very vertical to the top, arms and hands come out on the downswing but he's able to pivot hard and avoid coming over the top. Truly amazing swing. 

 

9 hours ago, Justsomeguy said:

This. I watch his swing and the amount of leverage he creates is unusual even at that level.

It looks like he takes it back very vertical and then has some very quick routing and twisting move at the top that allows him to just unload on the ball.

 

It's like VH creates a lever through either a side bend or something else I can't really figure out.

Yes and yes!... and that's what I wanted to discuss strating this thread actually...

  • loads up very vertical coupled with early lead wrist flexion (cobra pattern) and flying elbow has him across the line (at least more than 'normal' tour guys) - recentered... first pic
  • and then - a quick trail shoulder external rotation ('humerus forward' / 'Harvey Penick magic move') along with added lead wrist flexion - puts him in a tremendous spot dynamically... second pic (just a few frames from the 1st)... awesome dynamic motion that can't be really appreciated in still images; that comes from the momentum of the clubhead looping around and behind his handpath (awesome shallowing move)
  • and from there (way early, before P5!) it's just an agressive power pivot... no manipulation needed... thought more instructions would lead to this type of swing

v1.JPG

v2.JPG

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4 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

... thought more instructions would lead to this type of swing

 

 

 

What do you find that is so different with his P3-P5?  How would the teaching be different than a lot of the "buzz" topics now such as bowing lead wrist / motorcycle moves / casting behind you or any other popular shallowing club technique?  

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14 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

What do you find that is so different with his P3-P5?  How would the teaching be different than a lot of the "buzz" topics now such as bowing lead wrist / motorcycle moves / casting behind you or any other popular shallowing club technique?  

You are correct - all these terms / patterns / feels lead to a good shallowing motion...

 

I guess my question had more to do about the flying elbow / 'across the line' (he's not that much actually, camera angle)... but it seems, to me anyway, that the latest tendencies are more in line with a turn-turn type of swing and that 95% of Ams have OTT (and EE as a compensation) that comes from a beeline handpath move to the ball from the top... while a combo of lead wrist flexing + trail shouler external rotation (looping back in the flying elbow) would be an 'easy' way to achieve the shallowing motion... I was looking for the major drawbacks from trying to shallow it that way from those that know a lot more about the golf swing than me...

v1.JPG

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51 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

You are correct - all these terms / patterns / feels lead to a good shallowing motion...

 

I guess my question had more to do about the flying elbow / 'across the line' (he's not that much actually, camera angle)... but it seems, to me anyway, that the latest tendencies are more in line with a turn-turn type of swing and that 95% of Ams have OTT (and EE as a compensation) that comes from a beeline handpath move to the ball from the top... while a combo of lead wrist flexing + trail shouler external rotation (looping back in the flying elbow) would be an 'easy' way to achieve the shallowing motion... I was looking for the major drawbacks from trying to shallow it that way from those that know a lot more about the golf swing than me...

v1.JPG

 

So are you saying that he is shallowing or doing a different move than say Morikawa from the top to P4-P5sh?  Also what is flying elbow to you?  When I was younger this term was used for players where their trail elbow pointed sideways or somewhere other than down at the ground.  Are you referencing distance from his body?  Genuinely curious on your thoughts.  Just wanting to try to see what you are seeing.          

 

1353232315_MorikawTop.png.5ed74c1f91e0441852af5a0ea784d02c.png

 

1444267147_MorikawaP4.png.41754a30a25494562fcbf4b3e5f59719.png

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I have been watching "every shot" compilations of Hovland over the past couple of days - 2020 Tour Championship and Houston Open Rounds 1 and 2 are the top hits on Youtube. Pretty interesting, honestly.

 

You know the thing that stands out to me the most about his swing and game???

 

The smile he has on his face after pretty much every shot. 

 

I'm clearly projecting here, but I get the sense that he's focused way more on results than his flying elbow or where his forearm might be at P5. 

 

Dude knows he can hit the ball well, and just goes out and does it. Tough to analyze that. 

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1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

So are you saying that he is shallowing or doing a different move than say Morikawa from the top to P4-P5sh?  Also what is flying elbow to you?  When I was younger this term was used for players where their trail elbow pointed sideways or somewhere other than down at the ground.  Are you referencing distance from his body?  Genuinely curious on your thoughts.  Just wanting to try to see what you are seeing.

I would get Morikawa, Hovland and DJ in the same 'cobra' style... shallowing coming from a lead wrist flexion + trail shoulder external rotation... just that Hovland seem to have more 'separation' (elbow to body) than the others... and was wondering if it wasn't an 'easy' way to shallow (humerus going forward early)... misunderstanding if my 'flying elbow' comment wasn't used in the 'where is the elbow pointing' context...

 

Compared to players that seem to have a 'tighter' / 'natural' swing and release pattern... Fleetwood, Scott (wonderful swings also for sure)

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1 hour ago, jholz said:

The smile he has on his face after pretty much every shot. 

I'm clearly projecting here, but I get the sense that he's focused way more on results than his flying elbow or where his forearm might be at P5. 

Dude knows he can hit the ball well, and just goes out and does it. Tough to analyze that. 

That's for sure - and a great aspect about his game... I was just trying to figure out what particular moves he makes to be so efficient

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On 12/6/2021 at 4:15 PM, MtlJayMan said:

Thread is timed with Viktor’s recent success – but a general fan of his swing (who wouldn’t be?)… and without looking at his elite ball striking (early lead wrist flexion; little ROC; hard pivot) – if we focus on the P3-P5 range pattern – he’s exhibiting a huge across the line motion / ‘flying elbow’… with a transition showing massive external shoulder rotation / humerus forward (without dropping that trail shoulder) – coupled with lead wrist flexing (and trail wrist extending) at the top -> awesome shallowing move that allows him to pivot aggressively…

 

My question is why isn’t that type of motion P3-P5ish more mainstream as it seems to be a ‘relatively easy’ way to shallow the club / send the COM behind the hands – coupled with a Rose drill type of ‘delaying pivot’… compared to a turn-turn laid off approach that can rapidly lead to slight OTT if the player has any sort of beeline hand path action – and the usual suspect compensations ensuing; stall, flip…

 

Any big drawback to that type of motion usually seen with amateurs - matchups issues, difficult sequencing, too much trail shoulder drop (?)

vall.JPG.a06e0fb2f17747d3614163ff7a318e37.JPG

 

I don't think he is hugely across the line or has a flying right elbow. 

 

Anyhow most amateurs who tried to be across the line elbow flying and then reroute the club(wolfe would be the extreme example) would hit it do far right they would be lucky to keep it on the course. 

 

That's if they didn't shank it or take a trench behind the ball.

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7 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

Anyhow most amateurs who tried to be across the line elbow flying and then reroute the club(wolfe would be the extreme example) would hit it do far right they would be lucky to keep it on the course. 

 

That's if they didn't shank it or take a trench behind the ball.

So I'm guessing that type of motion / Wolff style rerouting for general amateur - would tend to present a steep angle of attack coupled with an open face - and far right, meaning blocks from in-out path (or still OTT and slice it right of the planet with face-path open?)

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9 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

So I'm guessing that type of motion / Wolff style rerouting for general amateur - would tend to present a steep angle of attack coupled with an open face - and far right, meaning blocks from in-out path (or still OTT and slice it right of the planet with face-path open?)

 

from personal experience trying  to lead with the elbow external rotation of shoulder whilst keeping in left tilt is hard for people. I struggle with that especially at speed because your body will try and help so hello right shoulder drop open clubface. One of the guys I play with had a lesson and he was trying it and I said please don’t.  He had a nightmare along lines you mentioned. His drill was exactly what the AMG guys were showing not to do, that contorted  elbow in front of body move.

 

right shoulder down

weight too much on right side

open face 

right arm bent to much for too long.

 

its a pet hate because I see instructors giving out this move on you tube and even they do the bad parts showing it because if they didn’t it wouldn’t look like what they are describing if that makes sense. People copy what they see. Some do in fairness mention wrist angles and tilts. 

Edited by Hilts1969
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32 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

from personal experience trying  to lead with the elbow external rotation of shoulder whilst keeping in left tilt is hard for people. I struggle with that especially at speed because your body will try and help so hello right shoulder drop open clubface. One of the guys I play with had a lesson and he was trying it and I said please don’t.  He had a nightmare along lines you mentioned. His drill was exactly what the AMG guys were showing not to do, that contorted  elbow in front of body move.

 

right shoulder down

weight too much on right side

open face 

right arm bent to much for too long.

 

its a pet hate because I see instructors giving out this move on you tube and even they do the bad parts showing it because if they didn’t it wouldn’t look like what they are describing it that makes sense. People copy what they see. Some do in fairness mention wrist angles and tilts. 

Yes and yes... I can relate - and thank god for Monte's and AMG videos that explain the countereffect of those moves (as you just did)... I find it more effective to focus on takeway, backswing and at the top wrists movements (only moment in the swing where you 'have time' to set them correctly) and the two Justins in early transition to sync up - for a powerful pivot 

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On 12/8/2021 at 2:58 PM, jholz said:

I have been watching "every shot" compilations of Hovland over the past couple of days - 2020 Tour Championship and Houston Open Rounds 1 and 2 are the top hits on Youtube. Pretty interesting, honestly.

 

You know the thing that stands out to me the most about his swing and game???

 

The smile he has on his face after pretty much every shot. 

 

I'm clearly projecting here, but I get the sense that he's focused way more on results than his flying elbow or where his forearm might be at P5. 

 

Dude knows he can hit the ball well, and just goes out and does it. Tough to analyze that. 

This ^.  Watch the damn ball. Not the swing video.  

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