Sand or loose soil is not a loose impediment in the general area

[Shilgy]

I saw this in a story about Victor Hovland picking sand off the green yesterday when his ball was off the green and it got me wondering if I’ve done it wrong.  Hmm, loose soil it says. How loose is loose? Like grains of sand or small clumps? When preparing to hit a shot from the general area…usually but not always from the fairway…. If a divot pelt is laying on the ground I will toss it aside. As well as small clumps that break off of it.  So how small do those clumps of soil from the divot need to be to be no longer removable in the general area?

[antip]

48 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I saw this in a story about Victor Hovland picking sand off the green yesterday when his ball was off the green and it got me wondering if I’ve done it wrong.  Hmm, loose soil it says. How loose is loose? Like grains of sand or small clumps? When preparing to hit a shot from the general area…usually but not always from the fairway…. If a divot pelt is laying on the ground I will toss it aside. As well as small clumps that break off of it.  So how small do those clumps of soil from the divot need to be to be no longer removable in the general area?

Interesting perspective. Loose sand/soil+vegetative binding material+Arnie Palmer 9 iron stroke=foot long divot. When Arnie's caddie lifts that divot and some bits fall off onto another nearby ball, which bits have reverted to loose sand/soil and which have not? I think this is one of those "I'll know it when I see it" scenarios.

At least in my Arnie scenario the owner of the ball gets full relief from the loose stuff regardless as conditions were worsened after ball came to rest (8.1d) but if the ball owner was the one moving the divot the question becomes relevant again.

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I saw this in a story about Victor Hovland picking sand off the green yesterday when his ball was off the green and it got me wondering if I’ve done it wrong.  Hmm, loose soil it says. How loose is loose? Like grains of sand or small clumps? When preparing to hit a shot from the general area…usually but not always from the fairway…. If a divot pelt is laying on the ground I will toss it aside. As well as small clumps that break off of it.  So how small do those clumps of soil from the divot need to be to be no longer removable in the general area?

With reference to the thread title, sand and loose soil aren't loose impediments anywhere.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

With reference to the thread title, sand and loose soil aren't loose impediments anywhere.

Yes Colin, I copied a headline from an article. 
 

Now back to the question…with.how big a clump does it take for loose soil to become a loose impediment in the general area?  

[antip]

7 hours ago, Colin L said:

With reference to the thread title, sand and loose soil aren't loose impediments anywhere.

Classic rules question feint - is the headline true or false. Most definitely true.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Now back to the question…with.how big a clump does it take for loose soil to become a loose impediment in the general area?  

 

I believe you got your answer from antip already, i.e. you'll know when you see it.

 

There is one guideline that will point you to the correct direction. If you can easily pick the clump up with your fingers it most likely is a LI by definition, and not only in the General Area.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe you got your answer from antip already, i.e. you'll know when you see it.

 

There is one guideline that will point you to the correct direction. If you can easily pick the clump up with your fingers it most likely is a LI by definition, and not only in the General Area.

I agree. My further thought is, if it bears any resemblance to a piece of the (unattached) divot, it's highly likely to be a LI. But as I noted earlier, if the person moving the divot is careless and part of the divot ends up on their ball, they are at risk of penalty when they attempt to move it (if the process moves the ball).

[jobin]

Just what is sand on the putting green?  Removable foreign material ! 

[sui generis]

21 minutes ago, jobin said:

Just what is sand on the putting green?  Removable foreign material ! 

 

It's one of the Improvements Allowed on Putting Green" by R13.1.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=13&subrulenum=1

[davep043]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

Just what is sand on the putting green?  Removable foreign material ! 

Agree with @sui generis, sand on the putting green is "sand".  Rule 13.1c(1) says a player is allowed to remove "sand" on the putting green.