Dr Kwon

[MK7Golf21]

1 minute ago, MPStrat said:

It’s not uncommon for tour players to have some EE. It’s not a slight or a knock on Rose. Not everyone can do what DJ does. 

 

oh Rose admits his hips don't work as well as some players, he blames limited mobility. 

[MPStrat]

7 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

oh Rose admits his hips don't work as well as some players, he blames limited mobility. 

Makes sense. Interestingly Kwon mentioned on his podcast with Mike Beaumont that EE is not a big concern to him

[MK7Golf21]

22 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Makes sense. Interestingly Kwon mentioned on his podcast with Mike Beaumont that EE is not a big concern to him

better not be, most people in his training do it, lol. Love his stuff for freeing up the swing and speed but I like some control which require bit of position work.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

better not be, most people in his training do it, lol. Love his stuff for freeing up the swing and speed but I like some control which require bit of position work.

There are 3 things that help you on the lesson tee.

 

1.  Technical knowledge of what happens in good swings.

2.  Experience on the lesson tee.  

3.  Experience doing good things and bad things in the swing in play when it means something.  In other words, practical understanding of how these movements work, both good and bad in the real world.

 

He obviously has oodles of #1, but dismissing EE shows a lack of number 2.  In and of itself it’s not bad, just like hitting 8 down on a 7 iron is not inherently bad.  Until you have thousands of hours on the lesson tee, the data is just that.  Just like thousands of hours on the lesson tee without the data is also incomplete.   EE creating speed the wrong way is bad both physically and for dispersion.

 

He’s a smart guy and he will takes some wrong turns and learn from them, but right now, if I were him, I’d partner with a tech savvy guy who has 20,000 hours on the lesson tee.

 

The medical equivalent is the guy who invented the MRI machine and has seen 1000’s of readouts, starts doing knee surgeries.  
 

I can increase someone’s club speed in 30 seconds, but long term their golf and physical health will be tenuous.

PS-Rose only EE’s when his body leads out too much as he demonstrates in his famous video.  Mostly with driver and not so much with irons…and to beat a dead horse, hip mobility only causes problems with EE when something else is wrong.  I’m an old fat man.  When I yank the handle and get stuck on my right side, I EE like a champ.  When I shift and sequence correctly….niet.

Edited May 3, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[RichieHunt]

Interesting few days on the range and the course.  

 

Tuesday was a beautiful day and I had some more free time on my hands, so I really went after on the range.  This was more of a training session than a practice session.  Worked a lot with Tour Tempo and the kettlebell.  Then after some initial warmup I tried working on hitting my 7-iron as far as I could.  I brought 2 different 7-irons with me...my gamer (New Level 902 Forged CB with a KBS $ Taper shaft and JumboMax grip) and a backup (Yonex Ezone MB, Nippon Modus 130 shaft, standard size PURE Grip).  I like to train with 2 different clubs to provide enough of a difference.  I feel like it gives me better awareness.

 

Anyway, there was a pole about 170 yards away and I was hitting the practice balls roughly to that pole (I was about 5-10 yards short of the pole with the Yonex blade 7-iron).  My goal was to hit both 7-irons past that pole by increasing my shift off the ball, increasing the speed of my pivot, lengthening my backswing and being able to push off the lead foot.  

 

What was fun to see in action was after pushing myself to my max and then re-pushing myself again to the max, I then decided to take a more 'normal' swing and that's when my shots traveled the furthest.  When I 'do things right' it's very much like I'm on Auto-Pilot in the downswing.  I'm not slowing down and I'm still moving the club very fast, but the effort is like I'm coasting.

 

 

Wednesday I decided to play in our club's league.  I remember years ago hearing Ron Guidry say that he could probably still throw a 7-hitter and only give up 2 or 3 runs in a game if he were pitching today.  Then when Guidry was asked why he still doesn't pitch, Guidry replied 'because it would take me 3 months to recover.'  That's how I felt Wednesday on the range.  The Tuesday session made my body not want to even put it into 3rd gear, much less 5th gear.  

 

Anyway, I hit the driver really well.  Including a roughly 295 yard drive into a 1-2 club wind.  But I struggled with the irons as I was falling into my old habit of not getting enough tilt and starting to re-center the pressure by p2.5-ish.  Part of the issue was I kept having uphill lies with my irons and that prompts me to have too much pressure on my trail foot.

 

Fortunately on Thursday they moved the hitting area on the range up and we had uphill lies so I could work on hitting irons from that lie.  Things eventually really clicked for me when I started to feel like I was performing the 'wind up' so much that I kept pivoting until I got substantial flex in my left knee and quite a bit of pressure on the left foot.  I almost felt like as I was getting to p4 I started to squat a little while I continued to turn.  

 

Not only was the sound of the strikes beautiful, but the trajectory was just ideal and the ball started to noticeably fly further.  I really wished I had a launch monitor to measure the different.  It felt substantial to say the least.

 

Unfortunately it's supposed to rain the next couple of days so I probably won't get time to build off the latest range session.  But I am starting to learn things, particularly that there's a difference between 'flow' and trying to exert as much effort as you can to move the backswing pivot as fast as you can.  There appears to be some connection between the two because you can't get good 'flow' if you're moving slow in the backswing, but without the proper sequencing moving as fast as your can will destroy any semblance of flow as well.

 

 

 

 

RH

[zacgolf]

 

[MPStrat]

5 minutes ago, zacgolf said:

 

I like how Lee calls shifting from right side back to left as you're still turning a tug of war. Good description. Bobby Jones said if you don't get weight to the left side, the downswing becomes like pulling on a slack rope. It's easy to see all of the slack bad golfers create in the backswing and carry over into the downswing.

 

 

[Zitlow]

Dropping the arms creates slack which blocks the flow of energy into the ball. Bobby was taught by Stewart Maiden the Scottish pro at East Lake. 

 

 

Taking the slack out of his joints so he can snap the clubhead into the ball. If he dropped his arms he'd lose all the tension from his left foot to the clubhead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Duffer Mark]

Should my lower back be sore from the shift-turn action Dr. Kwon teaches (provided I'm doing it correctly)?

 

I played 9 holes last Wed. evening. Was a little stiff the next day but no big deal. Then, Friday morning I worked out doing a barbell complex. About two hours later, my lower back was hurting and it lasted a few days. I discovered that when I slowly did a back swing motion, all seems well, but when I did a slow down swing to finish motion, my left side around my lower back and hip have slight pain. It almost feels like my left hip is not moving up and back as well as my right hip.

 

Just looking for some insight on what my issue(s) may be and how to fix them.

[iceman1118]

33 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

Should my lower back be sore from the shift-turn action Dr. Kwon teaches (provided I'm doing it correctly)?

 

I played 9 holes last Wed. evening. Was a little stiff the next day but no big deal. Then, Friday morning I worked out doing a barbell complex. About two hours later, my lower back was hurting and it lasted a few days. I discovered that when I slowly did a back swing motion, all seems well, but when I did a slow down swing to finish motion, my left side around my lower back and hip have slight pain. It almost feels like my left hip is not moving up and back as well as my right hip.

 

Just looking for some insight on what my issue(s) may be and how to fix them.

Assuming you are doing the shift and turn correctly, you could potentially be using core muscles in a fashion you have not used in some time. Could be tight hamstrings, glutes and hip flexors funneling up to your back. 

[letterrip]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:56 AM, johnrobison said:

Keep in mind that Dr Kwon isn't a golf instructor (perhaps not even a golfer, AFAIK). He's a scientist who specializes in biomechanics with an emphasis on applying force to a golf club.

 

He is a golfer, but he has an old injury of his foot that substantially limits his golf swings power - it is mentioned in one of his many videos but I don't recall which one.

[Duffer Mark]

I know Dr. Kwon is not a professional golf instructor but he has been writing and researching about golf since at least 2006 and has worked with 35 male, and 21 female, professional golfers. He also offers his certification courses. So, I wonder how qualified he is to do what he does with reprogramming people's of the golf swing. 

 

(As an outsider, I say he is qualified best I can tell.)

 

[zacgolf]

Maybe of interest…..

 

 

[ezpz]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:52 PM, zacgolf said:

 

To me this is kind of weird. The point Kwon and his videos seem to make is that the dynamics of the big muscles create the positions but then this reverts to a very positional micromanaged swing. I get the interest for dissecting movement out of curiousity but improvement wise this seems to be the opposite of the Kwon videos even though he might be trying to recreate the same positions (if this makes any sense)

[johnrobison]

2 hours ago, ezpz said:

To me this is kind of weird. The point Kwon and his videos seem to make is that the dynamics of the big muscles create the positions but then this reverts to a very positional micromanaged swing. I get the interest for dissecting movement out of curiousity but improvement wise this seems to be the opposite of the Kwon videos even though he might be trying to recreate the same positions (if this makes any sense)

The hands and arms have some responsibility for the correct movement of the club, as well. In fact, there are some videos where Kwon corrects the player's incorrect use of them. His focus is almost solely on how to create the largest moment arm to generate the most power - and for some people that may be where the majority of their conscious focus needs to be - but that's not to say that the hands and arms will somehow just magically do the right thing.

[Duffer Mark]

Does this image show the hands moving closer to the body through impact while the club head moves slightly outside like Lee is teaching in the above videos?

Source: http://www.drkwongolf.info/biom/pos.html

[Nels55]

I like this video as it shows practical application of the drills with a student who may be a bit limited in mobility:

 

[RichieHunt]

I haven't played in the past 2 weeks or so due to crappy weather and then I got an acute bronchial infection that sidelined me for a while.

 

I have been watching some of Marcus Bell's videos (Zen Golf Mechanics) and have focused on the footwork and ankle work.  I believe what originally was going on with me was that I would turn the hips open too soon and that would not get enough pressure towards the left ball of the foot/toes in transition.  Then when I started working on the Dr. Kwon stuff I started to get more pressure on the left ball of the foot/toes, but wasn't transferring that pressure enough to the left heel.  And I think that was causing me to not get enough torque force and my vertical force was too late.

 

Watching Marcus' videos helped me quite a bit, particularly when he would have students do drills where they would stand on balance pods and it would better show the foot and ankle movements.

 

I feel like I know better understand the 'kick the ground' movement in the downswing.  It's certainly a push off the ground, but getting that vertical force while shifting the pressure from the toes to the heel.  I could feel the 'kicking the ground' motion when I did rope drills, but couldn't get it with a real club.  Today I felt like I finally got it.  It felt very 'automatic' and everything would just fall into place.

 

 

 

 

RH

[Nels55]

Here is a video with some detail on swing positions:

 

[Nels55]

My work on the Kwon swing might be starting to pay off.  I recently shot the best round of my life a one under par 70 which I mentioned in a thread here: 

I believe that practicing Dr. Kwon's drills to the best of my ability had a lot to do with shooting my personal best round.  I have also been working on swinging with my wrists acting as a free hinge which seems to help a lot as long as I focus on keeping my body moving through the ball.  And I have been working on getting a bit more extension on my back and through swing trying to get to arms parallel on the follow through with both arms straight.  I saw a drill on 'Swing Expedition' with Chris Como by a guy named Andrew Getson where you take a half swing and finish facing the target with both arms straight and I have been doing that drill in addition to the Dr. Kwon drills.  

 

LOL I have a long history of playing well for short periods of time with various swing methods and then turning to field mice and pumpkins so it will be interesting to see if this holds up at all.  

[Hawkeye77]

On 5/11/2022 at 4:37 AM, zacgolf said:

Maybe of interest…..

 

 

In addition to some left foot nonsense, that’s just another mess of a “lesson” that DeVore is taking. Only one comic moment, “Not up here like you did with Malaska” (paraphrase). That guy talks too much and can’t communicate and DeVore adds nothing - not doing each other any favors. 

 

 

[Soloman1]

The only thing harder than golf is golf instruction.

[glk]

 

[Duffer Mark]

When does kicking the ground, as Kwon says, occur? Is it right before the shurn? Right after the shurn?

[Nickc]

Does anyone use the left (lead) foot step drill when actually playing?

[glk]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:16 AM, Duffer Mark said:

When does kicking the ground, as Kwon says, occur? Is it right before the shurn? Right after the shurn?

Max vertical happens by shaft vertical.  So roughly p5.5.   Extending the lead leg is going to start happening then.    Seen Berkshire on force plates and he reaches max vertical by p5 but then he also has off the chart forces and reaches their max earlier.   Scott Lynn talks about how the accel/decel pattern for ground forces has a very consistent pattern for golfers as compared to the kinematic sequence.   It is horizontal, torque, then vertical.   We mere mortals max out horizontal by or before p4, torque by p5 then vertical.   Force comes before motion.     Crossfield video has his vertical peaking too late and he is working to get it to peak prior to impact. Brendon has a video with Scott where he reaches max vertical after impact!     Not recommended, lol.  Ian poulter had a double peak - second peak after impact and Scott was working with him to eliminate it cause they suspected is was causing lower back pain that poulter was having.

interesting stuff with likely way more for these scientists to learn that they already know.

Edited May 29, 2022 by glk

[Duffer Mark]

I asked the same thing on one of Kwon’s videos and he replied as follows. 
 

Leg push and pelvis (shoulder( turn occur at the same time. The leg push is the driving force. Leg push -> upward and slightly backward weight-bearing hip motion -> pelvis turn -> shoulder turn.

[glk]

21 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

I asked the same thing on one of Kwon’s videos and he replied as follows. 
 

Leg push and pelvis (shoulder( turn occur at the same time. The leg push is the driving force. Leg push -> upward and slightly backward weight-bearing hip motion -> pelvis turn -> shoulder turn.

Great example. Note when Rory starts straightening the left leg - appears about p5 or a bit after.   He first adds flex in transition. And has to rotate back to square to get into position to kick.

 

hard to see on kwon’s as in Rory but note where golfer is at max grf.  
 

 

 

another way to view this is on a scale lowering oneself raise vertical force and the raising lowers it - so weight goes up and then down - max grf is at point at or just before the raising up happens.

 

first the shift has to happen to align the hip and ankles - if hip stays inside ankle or goes outside then won’t be able to push as hard.  And given the downswing happens in .25 sec and getting to p5 takes about .12 of that easy to sense that turn and kick happen almost at same time.   
 

tyler has a video that covers a bit on sequencing,etc that applies to the discussion.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by glk

[Duffer Mark]

@glk, thanks. I watched a few Dr. Scott Lynn Swing Catalyst videos and he’s saying the same thing you’re saying. Technically, the order is weight shift, hip turn, then lead leg kick. The entire sequence happens within milliseconds that breaking them down while actually swinging is difficult. 
 

I noticed this today while practicing with my driver. I have a tendency to get my upper body ahead of my lower on the downswing. So when I was trying to separate out the kick in the down swing, my upper body would get too far ahead and I could push up and back with the lead leg. But when I slowed down and kept all the swing movements to what felt minimal, my sequence got better and I was hitting great drives with little exertion. 

[glk]

28 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

@glk, thanks. I watched a few Dr. Scott Lynn Swing Catalyst videos and he’s saying the same thing you’re saying. Technically, the order is weight shift, hip turn, then lead leg kick. The entire sequence happens within milliseconds that breaking them down while actually swinging is difficult. 
 

I noticed this today while practicing with my driver. I have a tendency to get my upper body ahead of my lower on the downswing. So when I was trying to separate out the kick in the down swing, my upper body would get too far ahead and I could push up and back with the lead leg. But when I slowed down and kept all the swing movements to what felt minimal, my sequence got better and I was hitting great drives with little exertion. 

Scott Lynn has lots of good info.   I watch and listen to every video or podcast including him that I can.   It is more of me saying the same thing Scott is cause he and kwon are two of my biggest sources for info on grf.  As Scott says humans are messy and there is plenty of variation within our swing motion - more a spectrum than a dichotomy or tricohotomy.    
 

can take his level 1 certification on the swing cat site for free.    

Edited May 31, 2022 by glk