Rule Experts .... Partner Inadvertently Placing Ball at Partner's Mark ?

[J295]

Four ball match and Bob and Hank are partners.  Bob is 10 feet away from hole and Hank is 12 feet.  Both have marked their own balls.

 

Hank elects to putt first and replaces his ball on the green at the 10 foot mark (inadvertently at Bob's mark).  Before Hank putts Bob catches the error and so Hank puts down the mark at 10 feet and moves back to the correct mark of his at 12 feet and putts.  He misses so Bob then putts from his correct spot at 10 feet.

 

Our understanding that all is good because they are partners.  

 

Thoughts? And anyone have a technical analysis and/or citations to rules?

 

Thanks.

 

P.S.  True story.  This is senior golf for us.  Haha.  

Edited January 2, 2022 by J295
add

[davep043]

Most important, I can't think of a Rule which would penalize this.  A couple of Rules can apply, Rule 14 talks about marking, replacing, and correcting mistakes.  Rule 23 talks about Fourball competitions, and either player is allowed to do any of things the player can do.  This sequence sounds to me like Hank replaced a ball at Bob's mark, call it Bob's ball.  Hank is allowed to replace Bob's ball.  But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do.  Realizing the mistake, he re-marked Bob's ball.  The Hank replaced his own ball correctly and played.  Bob replaced his own ball correctly, and played.

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Most important, I can't think of a Rule which would penalize this.  A couple of Rules can apply, Rule 14 talks about marking, replacing, and correcting mistakes.  Rule 23 talks about Fourball competitions, and either player is allowed to do any of things the player can do.  This sequence sounds to me like Hank replaced a ball at Bob's mark, call it Bob's ball.  Hank is allowed to replace Bob's ball.  But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do.  Realizing the mistake, he re-marked Bob's ball.  The Hank replaced his own ball correctly and played.  Bob replaced his own ball correctly, and played.

Just adding confirmation that Hank had replaced his ball at a wrong place (Rule 14.7a) and was permitted to lift the ball and correct the mistake (Rule 14.5a).

[nsxguy]

42 minutes ago, J295 said:

Four ball match and Bob and Hank are partners.  Bob is 10 feet away from hole and Hank is 12 feet.  Both have marked their own balls.

 

Hank elects to putt first and replaces his ball on the green at the 10 foot mark (inadvertently at Bob's mark).  Before Hank putts Bob catches the error and so Hank puts down the mark at 10 feet and moves back to the correct mark of his at 12 feet and putts.  He misses so Bob then putts from his correct spot at 10 feet.

 

Our understanding that all is good because they are partners.  

 

Thoughts? And anyone have a technical analysis and/or citations to rules?

 

Thanks.

 

P.S.  True story.  This is senior golf for us.  Haha.  

 

15 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Most important, I can't think of a Rule which would penalize this.  A couple of Rules can apply, Rule 14 talks about marking, replacing, and correcting mistakes.  Rule 23 talks about Fourball competitions, and either player is allowed to do any of things the player can do. 

 

This sequence sounds to me like Hank replaced a ball at Bob's mark, call it Bob's ball.  Hank is allowed to replace Bob's ball.  But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do.  Realizing the mistake, he re-marked Bob's ball.  The Hank replaced his own ball correctly and played.  Bob replaced his own ball correctly, and played.

 

Mostly agree, though I see nothing to indicate either player played the other's ball.

 

Each marked his ball correctly. Then Hank, whose turn it was to putt, using his own ball, placed at the wrong spot and corrected his error.

 

In this case I see no harm, no foul.

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Mostly agree, though I see nothing to indicate either player played the other's ball.

 

Each marked his ball correctly. Then Hank, whose turn it was to putt, using his own ball, placed at the wrong spot and corrected his error.

 

Dave nailed it, you did not. It happens.

[nsxguy]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Dave nailed it, you did not. It happens.

 

Well, English was never my best subject in school.

 

Please point out the error I made.

 

TIA

[antip]

New Year greetings to all and particularly J295 for the first actual golf rules question for some time.

 

IMO, the only four ball/partner issue arising in the OP is the fact that partners can choose to play in any order (23.6), which is a variation on singles match play. All that happened on the green is one player inadvertently returned their ball into play by placing it on the wrong spot (not strictly a partner issue). So while that ball is in play, if played from there the player gets a wrong place penalty. 14.5 comes to the rescue after player is told (coincidentally by partner) that the ball is in the wrong spot. 

 

I don't think nsx did anything wrong (only speaking about his post, not his English performance at school), Dave just covered some wider bases as well.

[J295]

Thank you all!   We reached the same result in play this past summer, yet our friendly opponents still like to remind us occasionally of our mix up (which we caught and corrected).  

Edited January 3, 2022 by J295

[Mr. Bean]

19 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, English was never my best subject in school.

 

Please point out the error I made.

 

TIA

 

This is what Dave wrote:

 

'Rule 23 talks about Fourball competitions, and either player is allowed to do any of things the player can do.  This sequence sounds to me like Hank replaced a ball at Bob's mark, call it Bob's ball.  Hank is allowed to replace Bob's ball.  But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do.'

 

Playing from wrong place is the other possible breach but not the only one. Good catch from Dave IMO.

[davep043]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is what Dave wrote:

 

'Rule 23 talks about Fourball competitions, and either player is allowed to do any of things the player can do.  This sequence sounds to me like Hank replaced a ball at Bob's mark, call it Bob's ball.  Hank is allowed to replace Bob's ball.  But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do.'

 

Playing from wrong place is the other possible breach but not the only one. Good catch from Dave IMO.

I think either interpretation of Hank's actions is a reasonable one, and the "wrong place" interpretation is more likely to be correct.  It really doesn't matter, because 14.5 allows either infraction to be corrected as long as a stroke has not been made.

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I think either interpretation of Hank's actions is a reasonable one, and the "wrong place" interpretation is more likely to be correct.  It really doesn't matter, because 14.5 allows either infraction to be corrected as long as a stroke has not been made.

 

At the point when the error is corrected both options are possible yet theoretical as no infraction has taken place. If an infraction would actually take place then the WP infraction is the most likely one.

[nsxguy]

On 1/2/2022 at 11:05 AM, J295 said:

Four ball match and Bob and Hank are partners.  Bob is 10 feet away from hole and Hank is 12 feet.  Both have marked their own balls.

 

Hank elects to putt first and replaces his ball on the green at the 10 foot mark (inadvertently at Bob's mark).  Before Hank putts Bob catches the error and so Hank puts down the mark at 10 feet and moves back to the correct mark of his at 12 feet and putts.  He misses so Bob then putts from his correct spot at 10 feet.

 

Our understanding that all is good because they are partners.  

 

Thoughts? And anyone have a technical analysis and/or citations to rules?

 

Thanks.

 

P.S.  True story.  This is senior golf for us.  Haha.  

 

On 1/2/2022 at 12:42 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

Dave nailed it, you did not. It happens.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is what Dave wrote:

 

'Rule 23 talks about Fourball competitions, and either player is allowed to do any of things the player can do.  This sequence sounds to me like Hank replaced a ball at Bob's mark, call it Bob's ball.  Hank is allowed to replace Bob's ball.  But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do.'

 

Playing from wrong place is the other possible breach but not the only one. Good catch from Dave IMO.

 

Your suggestion that I did NOT "nail it" suggests that somehow I was incorrect. And in asking what I had wrong you posted the above.

 

You start off on the same path as dave got to - going off on possibilities that are nowhere in the OP that *I* can see. i.e. simply expounding on OTHER possible scenarios in OTHER cases.

 

The OP is quite specific.

 

"Both have marked their own balls"

 

So, NO evidence, or even suggestion, they somehow have the wrong ball in hand.

 

"Hank elects to putt first and replaces his ball on the green at the 10 foot mark".

 

You said "But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do." Again, NO evidence of a different ball, only that Hank replaces HIS ball.

 

Given the OP's starting point, playing from a wrong place COULD have been an outcome in a SIMILAR scenario but clearly NOT in this case.

 

So, as antip said, dave expounded/expanded other possibilities for similar situations, ONE of which could be playing from a wrong place,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but not here.

 

Again, feel free to point out my error(s).

 

Later

 

[J295]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:48 PM, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

Your suggestion that I did NOT "nail it" suggests that somehow I was incorrect. And in asking what I had wrong you posted the above.

 

You start off on the same path as dave got to - going off on possibilities that are nowhere in the OP that *I* can see. i.e. simply expounding on OTHER possible scenarios in OTHER cases.

 

The OP is quite specific.

 

"Both have marked their own balls"

 

So, NO evidence, or even suggestion, they somehow have the wrong ball in hand.

 

"Hank elects to putt first and replaces his ball on the green at the 10 foot mark".

 

You said "But he substituted a different ball, which he isn't allowed to do." Again, NO evidence of a different ball, only that Hank replaces HIS ball.

 

Given the OP's starting point, playing from a wrong place COULD have been an outcome in a SIMILAR scenario but clearly NOT in this case.

 

So, as antip said, dave expounded/expanded other possibilities for similar situations, ONE of which could be playing from a wrong place,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but not here.

 

Again, feel free to point out my error(s).

 

Later

 

 

OP here.  Just to be clear .... Hank and Bob each correctly marked their ball, and each only held their own ball and played their own ball.  The only snafu was the first player that was 12 feet out walked up to the 10 foot marker and inadvertently placed down his own ball and picked up the 10 foot mark, then when alerted he was in the wrong spot and before putting placed down a mark (i.e. replaced the mark he had just picked up) at 10 feet where his ball was sitting and picked up his ball then went to the 12 foot mark (his mark) and played as he should.