Order of Play

[jimbo123]

2 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Golf won't ever be easy. Golf is insanely hard--and yes, we should absolutely be strong enough to prioritize things that bring value to the experience and that isn't just about making it harder. Longer courses are harder but they're not necessarily better courses, are they?

 

It's just variation for variation's sake. It's like having a Kicker on a fantasy football team. What does it add? It's literally just adding noise to a game of what would otherwise be skillful prediction. There's no predicting what kicker will have a great week. It's noise. But having a kicker is a tradition! You can't not have a kicker! 

 

Just one of the many reasons I don't do fantasy anymore, LOL. 

 

Interestingly there is a tonne of psychological research into the effect of randomness.  People find games much more enjoyable if they have randomness rather than being purely skillful/deterministic.  So (at least for some of us!) it's not variation just for the sake of it; it's at the core of what makes the game fun.  

[klebs01]

10 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

No offense, but it's easy to judge a bad lie. There's no heroism in it. The ball comes off the club a groove lower, flies lower and carries less. 

 

That makes me a great golfer for knowing that? C'mon...it's such a bad argument. 

It so easy I guess I can see you on tour?  What’s your name? I’d like to start following you. Every weekend on TV. I’ve already learned in this thread that I don’t have to worry about fliers anymore. Every bad lie will just be a groove low come off lower and carry a little less. 

[MelloYello]

6 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

 

Interestingly there is a tonne of psychological research into the effect of randomness.  People find games much more enjoyable if they have randomness rather than being purely skillful/deterministic.  So (at least for some of us!) it's not variation just for the sake of it; it's at the core of what makes the game fun.  

 

Randonmess does not mean unpredictability. Keep that in mind. Poker is random. It's not unpredictable. 

 

The kind of unpredictable randomness (e.g. noise) I'm talking about....you'd be hard-pressed to argue benefits people. It certainly doesn't make them happy. As you stated above, at best it provides a sense of accomplishment when overcome but it's fundamentally a setback. It's going to start your car only to find your battery is dead. 

 

And that's my point....why have setbacks in the first place? 

 

I'm thinking of video games. Even expert players still have to defeat the mindless drones in the game. But at that point, they're plowing through what are effectively defenseless enemies. It's like suggesting the guy going for a World Record in some game also has to deal with a controller that keeps shutting off. How's that add anything? 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

6 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

It so easy I guess I can see you on tour?  What’s your name? I’d like to start following you. Every weekend on TV. I’ve already learned in this thread that I don’t have to worry about fliers anymore. Every bad lie will just be a groove low come off lower and carry a little less. 

 

Knowing how to play from a divot makes me a tour player? 

 

C'mon. 

 

P.S. - You don't get fliers from closely-mown areas. 😉

Edited January 18, 2022 by MelloYello

[jimbo123]

1 minute ago, MelloYello said:

 

Randonmess does not mean unpredictability. Keep that in mind. Poker is random. It's not unpredictable. 

 

The kind of unpredictable randomness (e.g. noise) I'm talking about....you'd be hard-pressed to argue benefits people. It certainly doesn't make them happy. As you stated above, at best it provides a sense of accomplishment but it's fundamentally a setback. 

 

Randomness is literally unpredictability.  Elements of poker (like the next card) are perfectly unpredictable, much like elements of golf.  

 

The research shows that when playing games, it gives people some sort of short-lived high and has addiction-like effects.   It's a sure bet that the fantasy game you're referring to has that random kicker feature as a result of this research.   And I think it's a big part of some of the biggest highs you can get on a golf course.  

 

[klebs01]

31 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Knowing how to play from a divot makes me a tour player? 

 

C'mon. 

 

P.S. - You don't get fliers from closely-mown areas. 😉

i guess you haven’t played some of the low rent courses I have and grew up on. Fairways around 3/4” will definitely produce fliers. Trying to figure out if it’s bent, poa or just clovers. 

[rogolf]

Play the Course as You Find It.

“One of the great features of golf is that it tests the player’s ability to execute a great assortment of strokes under a perplexing variety of conditions.” 

Richard Tufts

 

[sui generis]

33 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Play the Course as You Find It.

 

“One of the great features of golf is that it tests the player’s ability to execute a great assortment of strokes under a perplexing variety of conditions.” 

Richard Tufts

 

 

 

 

 It's unusual to see someone who presents himself as a good player, arguing for such a silly proposition. 🙄

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

Good point. I can see it being different for links-style golf. That's a different sport. 

 

The intention there is something different from typical American golf, I think. I don't think American golf is designed in such a way that imperfection can be celebrated. 

 

That said, there are challenges in American-style golf that would expose a purely links-accustomed player, too. They are simply different animals at their extremes. 

 

I just hate courses that have undulations on the fairways. Sometimes I have to make a shot from an uphill lie and sometimes from a downhill lie. That sucks. There should be a rule dictating that all courses MUST be completely flat so I can make the same shot every time. At least in US as there golf is a different animal.

[MelloYello]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I just hate courses that have undulations on the fairways. Sometimes I have to make a shot from an uphill lie and sometimes from a downhill lie. That sucks. There should be a rule dictating that all courses MUST be completely flat so I can make the same shot every time. At least in US as there golf is a different animal.

 

I actually wonder if people wouldn't do that if it were financially plausible? Then again, it's not plausible so it's not what I was talking about. 

 

The inevitable inconsistencies in turf height/quality are what I was discussing. By definition, we seek to eliminate / minimize that through golf course maintenance with more premium courses spending increasing amounts to do so. Clearly, it's not a welcome, let alone desirable, part of the game. 

 

The funny thing is a permanent form of LC&P would be (A) optional for players and (B) just as fair as the current rules.

 

I wonder if there were people who argued against Air Conditioning when it was first invented? 

Edited January 18, 2022 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

12 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

 It's unusual to see someone who presents himself as a good player, arguing for such a silly proposition. 🙄

 

That's not a very nice comment at all. 

 

Do you think this is an argument we're having? It's a hypothetical discussion based on people's own personal preferences about how to make golf the most enjoyable experience it can be. Different folks may have different takes.. If you have an issue with folks' preferences then don't participate.

 

No need for snide remarks. That's really inappropriate and hostile. How does a conversation about golf justify taking that attitude? Don't be childish.  

Edited January 18, 2022 by MelloYello

[denkea]

9 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

That's not a very nice comment at all. 

 

Do you think this is an argument we're having? It's a hypothetical discussion based on people's own personal preferences about how to make golf the most enjoyable experience it can be. Different folks may have different takes.. If you have an issue with folks' preferences then don't participate.

 

No need for snide remarks. That's really inappropriate and hostile. How does a conversation about golf justify taking that attitude? Don't be childish.  

If your handicap is truly 1.9 then I do believe you are just trolling. 😉

[sui generis]

3 minutes ago, denkea said:

If your handicap is truly 1.9 then I do believe you are just trolling. 😉

 

That's my take, too. It's winter here and some find that engaging in trolling amusing.

[MelloYello]

2 minutes ago, denkea said:

If your handicap is truly 1.9 then I do believe you are just trolling. 😉

 

That's not a logical statement. 

 

Playing by the rules doesn't mean I wrote the rules. I didn't invent the game. 

 

I don't see value in treating every rule as if it's sanctified. There has to be a logical basis for it and it has to be consistent with the framework around it. 

 

I'm still yet to hear anyone justify this tradition of not touching the ball. It doesn't really ad anything. It's not more fair. It just embeds further variation and difficulty. Some are claiming that's good. I disagree. 

 

[MelloYello]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

That's my take, too. It's winter here and some find that engaging in trolling amusing.

 

I'll tell you what is trolling...teasing someone about their index when it's entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

[Colin L]

12 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

 It's unusual to see someone who presents himself as a good player, arguing for such a silly proposition. 🙄

I'm bewildered. To my mind and from my long acquaintanceship with golf, Mr Tufts's description sounds apt and insightful.

 

Edit:  I've just looked back through the thread and I expect Sui is referring to Mello Yello's "proposition" not to Tufts or Rogolf.  I got misled by Tufts being re-quoted.

 

And if I'm right in that, I concur: a silly proposition indeed.  A perfect lie for every shot?  Laughable.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Colin L

[MelloYello]

Questioning the value of each rule and/or tradition seems pretty straight-forward and common-sense to me. 

 

I wonder...how exactly does one find it shocking to see a tradition questioned? Maybe this is one of those insular bubbles they talk about dominating the interwebs, LOL? 

.

Edited January 18, 2022 by MelloYello

[davep043]

Speaking to the hijacking of this thread from its original topic, I can only say that I respect the original principles of the game:  Play the course as you find it, and play your ball as it lies.  While those have been adapted over the centuries, they still form the basis for Golf.  I see no reason to throw them out the window.   And I'd suggest that the divot discussion be pursued in an appropriate thread, maybe this one:

And returning to the Original Topic, I'm glad the rules provide a recommended (required for match play) order of play.  At least in the groups that I play with, we each understand the system, we each keep reasonable track of what each player shoots on each hole, so we know before we get to a tee which player should be playing first.  There's no need for discussion, no need for a polite "No, you go ahead....Oh please, you go first", we simply get ready and play in order.  And if for some reason a player isn't ready, he'll say that he's not ready, and invite the next guy to go first.  In my experience, the structure provided by the Rules assists in keeping pace of play moving, uncertainty would contribute to slower play.  

[Purple Toupee]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

 

I'm still yet to hear anyone justify this tradition of not touching the ball. 

 

It’s been justified numerous times.  You just don’t want to hear it.

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

It’s been justified numerous times.  You just don’t want to hear it.

He sounds a good bit like LICC, who apparently hasn't been around for months.  I actually checked, to see if it could be a new account, but apparently this fellow has been a member for years, overlapping LICC time here.

[Oh Hi Carl]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:37 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

 

But this:

'D1 college kids who aren't shy about walking all the way to the green after hitting from the fairway while their playing partners are getting ready to play their approach shots. '

 

has nothing to do with 'the honor'. That is simply rude behavior.

 

College golf actually requires kids to move on (not necessarily while others are teeing off).  I've seen televised tournaments where a kid is getting a ruling and her playing partners continue the hole and even tee off on the next hole while she's getting her ruling.  She then has to hustle to complete the hole and catch up with her playing partners who could be a full hole ahead.  They're actually required to do that.  

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, denkea said:

If your handicap is truly 1.9 then I do believe you are just trolling. 😉

 

Maybe it is 1.9 because he is not playing the ball down.

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

College golf actually requires kids to move on (not necessarily while others are teeing off).  I've seen televised tournaments where a kid is getting a ruling and her playing partners continue the hole and even tee off on the next hole while she's getting her ruling.  She then has to hustle to complete the hole and catch up with her playing partners who could be a full hole ahead.  They're actually required to do that.  

 

That sounds odd. Who acts as that player's marker while their marker is teeing off 400 yards away? A referee is not supposed to be anybody's marker. I do not believe they are required to do any such thing.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

 

And returning to the Original Topic, I'm glad the rules provide a recommended (required for match play) order of play.  At least in the groups that I play with, we each understand the system, we each keep reasonable track of what each player shoots on each hole, so we know before we get to a tee which player should be playing first.  There's no need for discussion, no need for a polite "No, you go ahead....Oh please, you go first", we simply get ready and play in order.  And if for some reason a player isn't ready, he'll say that he's not ready, and invite the next guy to go first.  In my experience, the structure provided by the Rules assists in keeping pace of play moving, uncertainty would contribute to slower play.  

 

It works as long as the person first to tee off is not the one who starts doing other things.

[Newby]

19 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

College golf actually requires kids to move on (not necessarily while others are teeing off).  I've seen televised tournaments where a kid is getting a ruling and her playing partners continue the hole and even tee off on the next hole while she's getting her ruling.  She then has to hustle to complete the hole and catch up with her playing partners who could be a full hole ahead.  They're actually required to do that.  

I can't believe any qualified referee would require or even allow a player to tee off when others in the group have not completed the hole.

[sui generis]

24 minutes ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

College golf actually requires kids to move on (not necessarily while others are teeing off).  I've seen televised tournaments where a kid is getting a ruling and her playing partners continue the hole and even tee off on the next hole while she's getting her ruling.  She then has to hustle to complete the hole and catch up with her playing partners who could be a full hole ahead.  They're actually required to do that.  

 

What you might be seeing is a holdover from AJGA. Their pace of play guidance requires:

 

Play ready golf throughout the entire round. The first player to hole out should go toward the next tee and be the first to tee off. The second player to finish should replace the flagstick.

 

This practice is quite simple and practical. 

 

My experience as a referee in college golf, though, has been that college players do not make much of an effort to keep it moving until it's about to rain or get dark. 😉

 

[Mr. Bean]

44 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

What you might be seeing is a holdover from AJGA. Their pace of play guidance requires:

 

Play ready golf throughout the entire round. The first player to hole out should go toward the next tee and be the first to tee off. The second player to finish should replace the flagstick.

 

This practice is quite simple and practical. 

 

My experience as a referee in college golf, though, has been that college players do not make much of an effort to keep it moving until it's about to rain or get dark. 😉

 

 

How does that work in practice? Player A holes out first and heads towards the next tee. He is the marker of player C. Player B holes out 2nd and attends the flagstick. Player C holes out last. How does A make sure he is aware of C's score for the hole?

[sui generis]

40 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How does that work in practice? Player A holes out first and heads towards the next tee. He is the marker of player C. Player B holes out 2nd and attends the flagstick. Player C holes out last. How does A make sure he is aware of C's score for the hole?

 

I know this makes you nuts, Mr Bean. I knew when I posted it would ruin your day. 😉

 

If C fails to say to A, "Put me down for a 4." A would ask, "Hey, C, what did you have?"

 

These kids are alright.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I know this makes you nuts, Mr Bean. I knew when I posted it would ruin your day. 😉

 

If C fails to say to A, "Put me down for a 4." A would ask, "Hey, C, what did you have?"

 

These kids are alright.

 

 

 

It's all about integrity, right?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It works as long as the person first to tee off is not the one who starts doing other things.

Oh brother, like the trivial things you have mentioned that don't take time or are things others are doing as well, like taking a simple drink of water?

 

How many times you ringing that bell?