Is it Sandbagging to Post Compettive Round Scores only for Handicap Purposes?

[nsxguy]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

We are not even close, there are still so many differences around the world.

 

We in Finland are doing the same as in England, which unfortunately gives people an opportunity to manipulate their handicap. But I still prefer the option to declare (beforehand!!) your round to be a postable round than forcing every round to be one. Other differences are the formats. We do not accept any kind of team format nor match play scores to be posted.

 

And we certainly do not have any gimmies over or under 5 feet. If you do not hole out you will have a net DB for that hole.

 

A sandbagger's delight (unless there are other committee "punishments" for such behavior). 

 

So there's no provision for a "hole not completed" in your association/country ? Or IS that the process ? NDB for holes not completed.

 

Or if one does not finish ANY hole the score's not post-able ?

 

Rainout after 14 holes ?

 

Or, or, or ?

[Mr. Bean]

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

A sandbagger's delight (unless there are other committee "punishments" for such behavior). 

 

1) So there's no provision for a "hole not completed" in your association/country ? Or IS that the process ? NDB for holes not completed.

 

2) Or if one does not finish ANY hole the score's not post-able ?

 

3) Rainout after 14 holes ?

 

Or, or, or ?

 

1) It is the same as in Stableford. If you do not finish a hole you get 0 points. In stroke play you get NDB. Very simple.

 

2) Sure you may post such a score but would sound a bit dubious, don't you think? I mean, who would score 0 points in Stableford on an 18 hole round?

 

3) Yes. IIRC after 9 holes you may stop your round and the 10th hole will be net bogey and the rest 11-18 will be net par. So if you play14 holes your 15th is net bogey and 16-18 net par.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) It is the same as in Stableford. If you do not finish a hole you get 0 points. In stroke play you get NDB. Very simple.

 

2) Sure you may post such a score but would sound a bit dubious, don't you think? I mean, who would score 0 points in Stableford on an 18 hole round?

 

3) Yes. IIRC after 9 holes you may stop your round and the 10th hole will be net bogey and the rest 11-18 will be net par. So if you play14 holes your 15th is net bogey and 16-18 net par.

 

 

If I've got this right, here in the U.S. we use "most likely score" for ANY hole not completed,,,,,,,,, for handicap purposes.

 

For the event itself, if a stroke play event you are DQ'd. For a match play event you've simply lost the hole to ANY score your opponent made. For Stableford you'd get a blob.

 

For holes not played, we'd score a net PAR, course handicap strokes falling where they will, again for handicap recording, not(?) for the event*. As you yourself suggest, scoring a NDB for holes not played makes zero sense for handicapping.

 

 

*The event would/should spell out the "What ifs" if the 18 hole round is not completed.

[gregen9]

This thread confirms my concerns about posting practices. There is variety and the way I am doing it (the way it’s supposed to be done) puts me at a competitive disadvantage in ‘tournament’ rounds (possibly only a dozen a year) as well as in my ‘money’ games (almost all rounds). In the money games our group (3-10 players) have consensually agreed to subtract 3 strokes from the player only posting tournement rounds (he actually posts NO rounds) when a tournement committee posts FOR him.

So his playing partners become HIS police force- but what about tournement rounds?

The last tournement I completed (3 round event) the winner received a loud voice from the crowd: “POST your scores!” An implied questioning of integrity surely!

So I’m beginning to see this topic as the dirty secret of amateur golf: the many and various ways so many of us manipulate our HC’s. And then: the rationalizations we use while doing so.

[Mr. Bean]

20 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

If I've got this right, here in the U.S. we use "most likely score" for ANY hole not completed,,,,,,,,, for handicap purposes.

 

For the event itself, if a stroke play event you are DQ'd. For a match play event you've simply lost the hole to ANY score your opponent made. For Stableford you'd get a blob.

 

For holes not played, we'd score a net PAR, course handicap strokes falling where they will, again for handicap recording, not(?) for the event*. As you yourself suggest, scoring a NDB for holes not played makes zero sense for handicapping.

 

 

*The event would/should spell out the "What ifs" if the 18 hole round is not completed.

 

Let me try once more, maybe I was not clear enough. This is how it goes for us:

 

Say you play first three holes and score a net par each. On the 4th hole you lose 2 balls driving into the forest and you decide not to finish this hole but concentrate on the next hole. On the 4th hole your score would be NDB. You continue your round and score a net par on holes 5 to 9. Now you decide not to finish the back nine but leave the course. As you had not informed before hand that you would only play 9 holes you are expected to play 18. As you did not play ANY of the holes from the back nine you will get a net bogey for #10 and net par for 11 to 18, that is, not a NDB.

 

In a nut shell: if you stop your round after having played 9 holes but before 18 holes you will get a net bogey + net par's for the holes you did not play (in the end). If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB. And all this is for handicap calculation only, the actual score in stroke play would be DQ any time you fail to hole out (except in Stableford).

 

I hope this helps. Halebopp will correct me if I described something incorrectly here.

[nsxguy]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Let me try once more, maybe I was not clear enough. This is how it goes for us:

 

Say you play first three holes and score a net par each. On the 4th hole you lose 2 balls driving into the forest and you decide not to finish this hole but concentrate on the next hole. On the 4th hole your score would be NDB.

 

You continue your round and score a net par on holes 5 to 9. Now you decide not to finish the back nine but leave the course. As you had not informed before hand that you would only play 9 holes you are expected to play 18. As you did not play ANY of the holes from the back nine you will get a net bogey for #10 and net par for 11 to 18, that is, not a NDB.

 

In a nut shell: if you stop your round after having played 9 holes but before 18 holes you will get a net bogey + net par's for the holes you did not play (in the end). If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB. And all this is for handicap calculation only, the actual score in stroke play would be DQ any time you fail to hole out (except in Stableford).

 

I hope this helps. Halebopp will correct me if I described something incorrectly here.

 

OK, but you originally said "1) It is the same as in Stableford. If you do not finish a hole you get 0 points. In stroke play you get NDB."

 

Your "4th hole" above, a "Hole Not Completed", is an example of limiting strokes on a hole to NDB when you WOULD have made a far bigger number. We used to call that "Equitable Stroke Control", NOW NDB.

 

But there is a SECOND procedure (here) for HNC. MLS (Most LIkely Score). This accounts for someone not completing a hole where they WOULD have clearly made LESS than NDB.

 

So if one has a 3 footer for par and picks up instead of holing out the player gets a PAR for that unfinished hole. A 7 footer, add 2 and record a bogey, NOT NDB. 

 

A NDB, in this case, would inflate the differential for that round. In this case by multiple strokes.

 

"In a nutshell" - You're not describing "Holes Not Played" (as opposed to "Holes Not Completed".

 

If you STOP playing, i.e. HNP, sounds reasonable enough. Only slightly different here. We do net PAR for any holes not played.

 

But you STILL/AGAIN end with "If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB".

 

So THIS is where we seem to differ. ANY hole not completed HERE gets the lower of NDB OR MLS.

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

We thought the same except it was a foreign imposition on us poor ole 'Mericans.  LOL!

Can we whistle up retribution on the Politburo responsible? LOL x2

[Mustard_Tiger]

5 hours ago, dubbelbogey said:

When you say you played as a "single" do you mean you played completely alone - no other strangers in your group?

 

The only scores not postable are those played alone - meaning there was literally no other person(s) accompanying you on your round. 

 

 

Completely alone. My favorite time to play is late afternoons on Saturday and Sunday in the summer. Thankfully the three courses I normally play are pretty open during those times so I play as a single (and often play 2 balls). I can get in 18 holes of golf in the time it takes to play 9. Win-win

Edited January 3, 2022 by Mustard_Tiger

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

OK, but you originally said "1) It is the same as in Stableford. If you do not finish a hole you get 0 points. In stroke play you get NDB."

 

Your "4th hole" above, a "Hole Not Completed", is an example of limiting strokes on a hole to NDB when you WOULD have made a far bigger number. We used to call that "Equitable Stroke Control", NOW NDB.

 

But there is a SECOND procedure (here) for HNC. MLS (Most LIkely Score). This accounts for someone not completing a hole where they WOULD have clearly made LESS than NDB.

 

So if one has a 3 footer for par and picks up instead of holing out the player gets a PAR for that unfinished hole. A 7 footer, add 2 and record a bogey, NOT NDB. 

 

A NDB, in this case, would inflate the differential for that round. In this case by multiple strokes.

 

"In a nutshell" - You're not describing "Holes Not Played" (as opposed to "Holes Not Completed".

 

If you STOP playing, i.e. HNP, sounds reasonable enough. Only slightly different here. We do net PAR for any holes not played.

 

But you STILL/AGAIN end with "If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB".

 

So THIS is where we seem to differ. ANY hole not completed HERE gets the lower of NDB OR MLS.

 

Well, you must start a hole in order to finish it thus a hole not finished cannot be he same as a hole not played.

 

But we reached the point of mutual understanding. Let us keep it that way.

[ThinkingPlus]

57 minutes ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

Can we whistle up retribution on the Politburo responsible? LOL x2

Actually it doesn't bother me.  I am a relatively innocent bystander as far as handicaps are concerned.  If anything, I think the RBs need to look at course rating reform.  IMO, the current system over emphasizes length and under emphasizes green complexes.  I may be tilting at windmills with that opinion though.

[jvincent]

17 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Actually it doesn't bother me.  I am a relatively innocent bystander as far as handicaps are concerned.  If anything, I think the RBs need to look at course rating reform.  IMO, the current system over emphasizes length and under emphasizes green complexes.  I may be tilting at windmills with that opinion though.

 

Amen.

 

With the Shotlink and course mapping data available today a strokes gained approach to handicapping would be much better.

[gregen9]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Let me try once more, maybe I was not clear enough. This is how it goes for us:

 

Say you play first three holes and score a net par each. On the 4th hole you lose 2 balls driving into the forest and you decide not to finish this hole but concentrate on the next hole. On the 4th hole your score would be NDB. You continue your round and score a net par on holes 5 to 9. Now you decide not to finish the back nine but leave the course. As you had not informed before hand that you would only play 9 holes you are expected to play 18. As you did not play ANY of the holes from the back nine you will get a net bogey for #10 and net par for 11 to 18, that is, not a NDB.

 

In a nut shell: if you stop your round after having played 9 holes but before 18 holes you will get a net bogey + net par's for the holes you did not play (in the end). If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB. And all this is for handicap calculation only, the actual score in stroke play would be DQ any time you fail to hole out (except in Stableford).

 

I hope this helps. Halebopp will correct me if I described something incorrectly here.

My understanding is that MLS is used for holes not finished-not- holes not played.

9 hole rounds are postable- and are later paired with other 9 hole scores or used as they are. I don’t think unfinished rounds address to me the major issue which is being resisted in many ways here ( side issues, technicalities, changing the subject etc.).

The issue is: do we all find various ways to post the scores that will  give us an advantage in competition (the most common rationalization: everyone else is doing so!)- or do we follow the rules unfair as we think they are? 
Following the rules, according to my sandbagging friend- “only makes you a chump”. 
The unfortunate choice in any “honor” system may well be “chump” or “competitive”. 
So far I’m sticking with ‘chump with integrity’.

But I am feeling the pinch!

[Mr. Bean]

44 minutes ago, gregen9 said:

My understanding is that MLS is used for holes not finished-not- holes not played.

9 hole rounds are postable- and are later paired with other 9 hole scores or used as they are. I don’t think unfinished rounds address to me the major issue which is being resisted in many ways here ( side issues, technicalities, changing the subject etc.).

The issue is: do we all find various ways to post the scores that will  give us an advantage in competition (the most common rationalization: everyone else is doing so!)- or do we follow the rules unfair as we think they are? 
Following the rules, according to my sandbagging friend- “only makes you a chump”. 
The unfortunate choice in any “honor” system may well be “chump” or “competitive”. 
So far I’m sticking with ‘chump with integrity’.

But I am feeling the pinch!

 

It is different here in Finland, as just explained. You have your own WHS in USGA territory.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, gregen9 said:

My understanding is that MLS is used for holes not finished-not- holes not played.

9 hole rounds are postable- and are later paired with other 9 hole scores or used as they are. I don’t think unfinished rounds address to me the major issue which is being resisted in many ways here ( side issues, technicalities, changing the subject etc.).

The issue is: do we all find various ways to post the scores that will  give us an advantage in competition (the most common rationalization: everyone else is doing so!)- or do we follow the rules unfair as we think they are? 
Following the rules, according to my sandbagging friend- “only makes you a chump”. 
The unfortunate choice in any “honor” system may well be “chump” or “competitive”. 
So far I’m sticking with ‘chump with integrity’.

But I am feeling the pinch!

Stick with the integrity!!  It looks better on you than the alternative.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Well, you must start a hole in order to finish it thus a hole not finished cannot be he same as a hole not played.

 

But we reached the point of mutual understanding. Let us keep it that way.

 

One last clarification if you don't mind.

 

You wrote earlier "If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB."

 

So then, in the scenario I gave you - 3 foot putt for par and the player picks up, under rules of handicapping you give him a NDB for that hole (as opposed to the most likely score he would have made on that hole) ?

 

True or false ?

 

TIA

[Mudguard]

5 hours ago, gregen9 said:

In the money games our group (3-10 players) have consensually agreed to subtract 3 strokes from the player only posting tournement rounds (he actually posts NO rounds) when a tournement committee posts FOR him.

So his playing partners become HIS police force- but what about tournement rounds?

 

So I’m beginning to see this topic as the dirty secret of amateur golf: the many and various ways so many of us manipulate our HC’s. And then: the rationalizations we use while doing so.

I think the issue is allowing that person to continue to play. If they aren't posting all eligible scores then you simply say, sorry Jimmy, we've had thirty rounds this year and you've got six handicap rounds posted. You're welcome to play, but not in our match. 

Or you make him play off zero. (Presuming of course he isn't plus four or something!)

[Mr. Bean]

25 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

One last clarification if you don't mind.

 

You wrote earlier "If you fail to finish a hole anywhere in between when continuing your round you will get a NDB."

 

So then, in the scenario I gave you - 3 foot putt for par and the player picks up, under rules of handicapping you give him a NDB for that hole (as opposed to the most likely score he would have made on that hole) ?

 

True or false ?

 

TIA

 

That is correct. MLS does not exist here and never has. We play golf 😉

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is correct. MLS does not exist here and never has. We play golf 😉

 

And he we are right back at the beginning,,,,,,,,, where, to your

 

"And we certainly do not have any gimmies over or under 5 feet. If you do not hole out you will have a net DB for that hole" and I said "A sandbagger's delight (unless there are other committee "punishments" for such behavior)".

 

Look at all the time we could've saved.

 

Legalized sandbagging. Who'd a thunk it ?

[Mr. Bean]

7 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

And he we are right back at the beginning,,,,,,,,, where, to your

 

"And we certainly do not have any gimmies over or under 5 feet. If you do not hole out you will have a net DB for that hole" and I said "A sandbagger's delight (unless there are other committee "punishments" for such behavior)".

 

Look at all the time we could've saved.

 

Legalized sandbagging. Who'd a thunk it ?

 

Well, there are always methods how to manipulate one's handicap, no system will ever take that away. We just have to rely on golf players' integrity.

 

Btw, IIRC there is a clause in the WHS regarding deliberate poor playing. I can only assume that taking deliberate 4 putts from 5 feet (or lifting one's ball without even trying to sink it in our WHS) would fall under that clause and render the score invalid for handicap purposes.

[rogolf]

58 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is correct. MLS does not exist here and never has. We play golf 😉

Ya, well we play golf here too.  The Rules of the game are the same around the world. 😕

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Ya, well we play golf here too.  The Rules of the game are the same around the world. 😕

 

You mean like this Rule:

 

1.1 The Game of Golf

Golf is played in a round of 18 (or fewer) holes on a course by striking a ball with a club.

Each hole starts with a stroke from the teeing area and ends when the ball is holed on the putting green (or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to 😁

[jvincent]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You mean like this Rule:

 

1.1 The Game of Golf

Golf is played in a round of 18 (or fewer) holes on a course by striking a ball with a club.

Each hole starts with a stroke from the teeing area and ends when the ball is holed on the putting green (or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to 😁

 

(or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to.

 

There's this thing called match play which doesn't require the ball to be holed for a hole to be completed. It's played in a few places around the world and every couple of years there's this fairly big tournament.

[rogolf]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You mean like this Rule:

 

1.1 The Game of Golf

Golf is played in a round of 18 (or fewer) holes on a course by striking a ball with a club.

Each hole starts with a stroke from the teeing area and ends when the ball is holed on the putting green (or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to 😁

I know. It's not like you to ever hold back.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

(or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to.

 

There's this thing called match play which doesn't require the ball to be holed for a hole to be completed. It's played in a few places around the world and every couple of years there's this fairly big tournament.

 

Of course you are completely correct. But enlighten me, how does the Most Likely Score work in MP ? After concession a MLS is estimated/calculated?

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Of course you are completely correct. But enlighten me, how does the Most Likely Score work in MP ? After concession a MLS is estimated/calculated?

Yes.  Examples -> you are conceded a 20 foot putt.  MLS would be add 2 strokes since that is the most likely outcome.  You are conceded a 1 foot putt.  MLS would be to add 1 stroke since most likely outcome is you make the 1 footer.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You mean like this Rule:

 

1.1 The Game of Golf

Golf is played in a round of 18 (or fewer) holes on a course by striking a ball with a club.

Each hole starts with a stroke from the teeing area and ends when the ball is holed on the putting green (or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to 😁

 

31 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

(or when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed).

 

Sorry, I had to.

 

There's this thing called match play which doesn't require the ball to be holed for a hole to be completed. It's played in a few places around the world and every couple of years there's this fairly big tournament.

 

But,,,,, but,,,,, that IS "when the Rules otherwise say the hole is completed"

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by nsxguy

[BlackDiamondPar5]

If I play with you and you don't post you're gonna catch grief and I'll call you out. I check up on people. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by BlackDiamondPar5

[bladehunter]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:36 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Define "sandbagging".

 

Most golfers I'm familiar with play worse in true comps than in casual play. One word - pressure.

 

If that's true in your case, it could be considered sandbagging as your 'cap would be "artificially" higher than it should be.

 

Then again, there are some players who claim they play better in comps because they're more focused, use better course management, etc.

 

If that's true in your case, the yes, your handicap would be artificially lower than it should be and you'd just be cheating yourself.

 

That said, you handicap isn't legitimate in either case; at least not here in the U.S. ALL rounds played by the ROG are post-able for handicap purposes.

 

There are handicapping rules for accounting for holes not finished.

 

 

I disagree in a way.  If the causal rounds aren’t played by the rules , I don’t personally post them.  although usually I’ll just play by the rules and let the others cheat - as in Breakfast ball ?  Not by the rules. Gimme putts ? Not by the rules.  Root rule ? Not by the rules …. Roll it in the fairway ? Not by the rules.  
 

 

[bladehunter]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:32 PM, Augster said:

Can we stop with the “competitive rounds are the only rounds I putt everything out and follow the rules”. It’s BS. 
 

Most everyone I’ve ever played with in casual rounds follow the rules close enough for posting purposes. The US system has had MLS up to ESC for a LONG time and now MLS up to NDB has been implemented in the WHS. 
 

The number is 5 feet. If you are inside 5feet and you pick up, call it a 1-putt. If you’re outside 5 feet, call it a 2-putt. If you are pretty sure you’d have made that 8-footer, call it a 1-putt. None of your future opponents care if your index is artificially a little low. 
 

If you play with at least one other person, post. It’s pretty simple to not be a sandbagger. 

“ close enough “.  Where does that come in the rule book ?  

[pingfool]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:32 PM, Augster said:

Can we stop with the “competitive rounds are the only rounds I putt everything out and follow the rules”. It’s BS. 
 

Most everyone I’ve ever played with in casual rounds follow the rules close enough for posting purposes. The US system has had MLS up to ESC for a LONG time and now MLS up to NDB has been implemented in the WHS. 
 

The number is 5 feet. If you are inside 5feet and you pick up, call it a 1-putt. If you’re outside 5 feet, call it a 2-putt. If you are pretty sure you’d have made that 8-footer, call it a 1-putt. None of your future opponents care if your index is artificially a little low. 
 

If you play with at least one other person, post. It’s pretty simple to not be a sandbagger. 

this is it. The rest is chicken sh-t bs. Post you’re MLS NDG 

if you have 4-5 tournament rounds in your last 20 your index should be an accurate reflexion of your scoring.