Jump to content
2024 Houston Open WITB Photos ×

Is it Sandbagging to Post Compettive Round Scores only for Handicap Purposes?


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Seems that from your perspective , sandbaggers don’t effect you , and vanity caps benefit you …. Yes ?  

 

So , who has the most to gain from this current situation.  Me or you ?   ( easy answer ).  

 

Me thinks you’d be saying different things if you encountered the opposite end of that spectrum as i do.  Right ?

 

 

 

I've erased the rest of the quote to make it easy(?) to understand.

 

Who has the most to gain ? Easy answer ?

 

Opposite end of WHAT spectrum ???

 

 

 

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Firstly, kindly show me where I said or implied that sandbaggers don't affect me.

 

Secondly, kindly explain how we are on "opposite ends of the spectrum".

 

I play ANY game to compete and/or win a little ca$h. If my opponent(s) want to help me out by giving me, extra shots, who am I to complain about it ? :classic_rolleyes:

 

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

You’ve repeatedly said the sandbagger issue doesn’t exist.  Which makes one infer that you don’t come into contact with.  Can it be both ? 
 

 

Im simply using your words.  You say you like the system as is.  I do not.  That’s opposite.  You’re for posting Rounds that aren’t played by the rules of golf.  I’m not.  I don’t know how much more opposite we can see it. 

 

I asked you to show me where I said sandbaggers don't affect me. And from you ? Bupkis. :classic_laugh:

 

Instead you now accuse me of "repeatedly" saying the "sandbagger issue doesn't exist".

 

So I'll try this one instead. Kindly show me where I said the sandbagger issue doesn't exist ? ONE time will suffice, never mind "repeatedly".

 

I also never said I "like" the system. I neither like it nor dislike it. I merely accept that the (now) worldwide experts, who have been addressing this for over 100 YEARS, know far more about it than ANY of us do.

 

I ALSO don't recall saying I was in favor of posting rounds NOT played by the ROG. I've pointed out they're not "postable" I've alluded to the fact that I understand why those rounds get posted but I never said they should (or shouldn't) be posted.

 

And btw, as the shilgster already pointed out, there are provisions for posting holes and rounds not completed which includes a process for posting a "Most LIkely Score".

 

Now, IF you are "using my words" and telling me all these things I've said you shouldn't have any problem quoting them.

 

Show me and I'll gladly clarify any misunderstanding and/or apologize and "take it back".

 

TIA :classic_smile:

 

 

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Titleist 716 AP-1  5-PW, DGS300

Ping Glide Forged, 48, DGS300

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 34*, RED, BGT Stability

Titleist Pro V1X

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yes….but more likely he had a low score coming off his last 20 and went out relaxed thinking a “normal” round would bump him up a stroke on his course handicap. Oops…the relaxed golfer played well.

In 2000, I'm not sure that their system was using 20 scores for handicap purposes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Were you attempting to manipulate your handicap in order to win the prize?  There are names for that.

 

No, not at all. I had been playing poorly and was trying to get my handicap closer to what my recent playing history had been. My anticipation was that I would play equally poorly that Thursday as I had been playing for the past two weeks. Had I wanted to cheat I would not have posted my great round or played poorly on purpose. But I did not.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yes….but more likely he had a low score coming off his last 20 and went out relaxed thinking a “normal” round would bump him up a stroke on his course handicap. Oops…the relaxed golfer played well.

 

We had a completely different handicap system those days, nothing similar to current WHS.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sandbagging is artificially maintaining a higher handicap in order to win handicapped competitions. (Plural.) Most clubs in the US that play for decent prizes have sandbagging problems. Some more than others. Depends on the culture and how well the membership is educated on the system. It’s a difficult system to implement at the club level and many do not do an adequate job. 

 

The “experts”: chief handicap expert Dean Knuth later created the Knuth Point system because of the problems/difficulties. If a club implemented his point system, it made handicap reductions “automatic” if you placed high - regardless of score! My club took a serious look at it back in the day. They decided to stay with the much more difficult task of implementing the Handicap Manual - which meant meetings with the problem players and perhaps modifying Indexes or posting Penalty scores. “Cap Patrol” came along later as well. Maybe others? Let’s be frank, our handicap system is really good only for players that know each other well. Problems tend to come as field size increases. The experts should man up and admit it. There is very little trust or confidence in the system for players you do not know. Be honest.
 

Other parts of the world had a different system which worked better for larger field comps. Was it perfect? Of course not. Now they are implementing the WHS and we’ll see if it improves things or not. The metric that matters to me - improvement would mean being able to maintain or increase participation levels in handicapped comps. Other issues like 8 of 20 or whatever, are trivial in comparison.

 

Blade: thanks for all your posts. Well done.

 

EDIT: I would also like to throw this in: I don’t find playing by the rules to be a burden. I actually like holing out every time as well. 

 

Edited by mark m
  • Like 1

Titleist TSR4 9.5, Oban Devotion 6, 05 flex 65g
TM M4 Tour 3W, Oban Devotion 7, 05 flex 75g
TM R15 TP #3 (19*), Fujikura Speeder 869 X
Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 4-PW, KBS C-Taper X
Mizuno JPX 919 Forged GW, KBS C-Taper X
Vokey Wedges - SM8 56.12 & 60.08 S400
Newport 2.5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Dumb question - why do some golfers think that they "know better" than the people that developed the rules of handicapping and handicapping system?

Stop manipulating - just post all the scores that are acceptable in your region's/country's version of the WHS.  It's really that simple - stop any and all "manipulation".  Just do as the rules of handicapping say, then rest easy.

It’s not that simple.  
 

in the US a round not played with exceptions to the rules of golf is rare.  The discussion is valid.  Especially in the US.  It irritates some as they prefer to blindly follow.  But if it’s just , I’m sure it will stand up question.  
 

the subject is being ignored , really.  The only answer given is “ who cares if Its a vanity cap that makes it easier for me anyway “.  That’s not an answer to the question . That’s just an opinion based on singular bias towards winning.   

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/9/2022 at 8:28 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Excepting some vagabond establishing a bogus handicap and then traveling to a big money comp where nobody knows him, THIS is why I personally think serious sandbagging is nowhere near as prevalent as some think.

 

That said, if "they" cheated they should be tossed.

 

Mind Blown - MiceChat

 

 

 

When you tell us how a higher handicapper has a better chance than a lower capper in a net event, you are citing stats; "Odds of Shooting an Exceptional Score".

 

And your experience doesn't negate those stats. The 18 cap should win more often than the 12 cap. But if that's not what you see, that's not what you see.

 

"It’s the very idea of legislating even results that bugs me."

 

Ouch !!! I get it.

 

But I wonder how many games you'd get if there wasn't a handicap system. You're better than what, 99+% of all golfers ?

 

You didn't like my 4 (not 2) stroke spread giving/getting any shots. How often would anybody play you with NO strokes - other than those boys you referenced ?

 

The only sport "worse" than golf in INequity is tennis. I've not ever heard of a way of evening up 2 disparate tennis players. The difference can be really small and the better player will win almost every time. At least in golf we have handicaps.

 

The best Pro tennis players win 3-4 matches before they get knocked out (80% wins). As a TEAM player on a good team you win, often far more, than you lose. The best pro golfers LOSE far more than they win. Win 3 tourneys a year and your often World #1.

 

And amateur golf is even worse. A field of 24 or so yields 1 "winner" and maybe a few others who grab a little ca$h. It can be very tough on one's psyche to "lose" so often, especially when one is so much better (straight up) than one's opponent. Many of us have been there.

 

The only option is to find someone around your own ability - and (especially) in your case that's pretty difficult.

Well I’ll admit. You do a nice job of saying it in an Ambiguous fashion.  But this isn’t The only mention in this thread.  Earlier you asked someone to define it.  Which also points to calling someone crazy for suggesting it exists.  We all know what  or who they are. 
 

i mean heck. In my mind if you are posting with the  idea of what the post will do to your cap , it indicates a propensity  for “ managing “ a handicap. Thats the slippery slope to sandbaggery.     I recall you telling me how much of a differential it would take for me to drop a full shot.  My hand to the sky , I have no clue how it’s calculated.  Nor do I care. Why would  I ?  Unless I intend to manage it ?  I just post , and it is what it is.  Which is my point. Those who seem to study this , are aware of where they are and how to stay there.  
 

at any rate I can’t go round this bush anymore.    I still contest that very few rounds are played by the rules of golf.  And yet posted. And the only defense I’ve heard is “ don’t care. It helps me “.    It’s just hard to understand how folks defend that at the same time as preaching abiding by the rules.  
 

 

Edited by bladehunter

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/2/2022 at 12:17 PM, ilikegolf26 said:

The title pretty much says it all. I’ve stopped posting casual rounds I play and am only posting competitive rounds only. I was accused (not maliciously) of sandbagging. My response is those are the only rounds I  really ever play where every putt is holed out and the rules are strictly followed. 


 

The answer is it could be, but it depends.

 

Question - do you play in handicapped competitions? (Numerous top ams do not keep an accurate scoring record and post just ‘C’ scores. But they don’t play in net comps. See bottom of this post for an example.)

 

Examples

 

Think of playing 1, 2, or more good “general play” rounds prior to net comp that would lower your handicap. And you don’t post those rounds. Others see this. And you win net money. Not good. Best policy is to try hard all the time and post all acceptable scores. 

 

I’ve posted here since 2007 in various threads on how many top ams do not maintain an accurate scoring record. Despite this, their Index may still be “accurate” or very close to it. Who knows. It’s a strange phenomenon. Of the plus players I know personally, the guys that have served in leadership at their club are the best in this area. They understand they have to lead by example.

 

Open your GHIN app and enter Romo and Texas. I don’t mean to pick on Tony Romo. But he is a celebrity and a good golfer and an example of what I am talking about.

 

You will see multiple listings for this name. I am not sure if these are 3 different people, 2, or if there is just one Tony Romo. Three of the scoring records look to be identical and merged - and are probably what he currently uses(?) Are the others old and obsolete? I don’t know. On one of those, the most recent scores are from 2011. Hard to believe any club would pay to maintain this record!

 

On the 3 records that are merged -  his Index is +2.0 (which may be right/close) - and he has 6 scores posted from 2021. He most recent 20 scores include rounds from 2018. (20 rounds played in 3 years? Really?) How many rounds do you think he really played the past 3 years? (I would guess 100+ last year alone unless he was hurt.) Is this leadership?

 

Handicaps are public info and others lookup celebrities and good players in the GHIN app. And right or wrong, many emulate what they do. It would really help if everyone followed the system.

 

Edited by mark m
  • Like 1

Titleist TSR4 9.5, Oban Devotion 6, 05 flex 65g
TM M4 Tour 3W, Oban Devotion 7, 05 flex 75g
TM R15 TP #3 (19*), Fujikura Speeder 869 X
Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 4-PW, KBS C-Taper X
Mizuno JPX 919 Forged GW, KBS C-Taper X
Vokey Wedges - SM8 56.12 & 60.08 S400
Newport 2.5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Well I’ll admit. You do a nice job of saying it in an Ambiguous fashion.  But this isn’t The only mention in this thread.  Earlier you asked someone to define it.  Which also points to calling someone crazy for suggesting it exists.  We all know what  or who they are. 
 

 

22 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

i mean heck. In my mind if you are posting with the  idea of what the post will do to your cap , it indicates a propensity  for “ managing “ a handicap. Thats the slippery slope to sandbaggery.     I recall you telling me how much of a differential it would take for me to drop a full shot.  My hand to the sky , I have no clue how it’s calculated.  Nor do I care. Why would  I ?  Unless I intend to manage it ?  I just post , and it is what it is.  Which is my point. Those who seem to study this , are aware of where they are and how to stay there.  
 

at any rate I can’t go round this bush anymore.    I still contest that very few rounds are played by the rules of golf.  And yet posted. And the only defense I’ve heard is “ don’t care. It helps me “.    It’s just hard to understand how folks defend that at the same time as preaching abiding by the rules.  
 

 

 

Thank you for "admitting" (more or less) I did NOT say "sandbaggers don't affect me" NOR that I EVER said the "sandbagger issue doesn't exist".

 

And there is nothing ambiguous about what I have said on the subject.

 

Yes, I asked the OP to define sandbagging since this is HIS thread and he ASKED if his not posting casual scores was sandbagging. I said it COULD be sandbagging and that *I* considered sandbagging manipulating one's index HIGHER.

 

And I fail to see how anyone could consider the above request for, or answer to, defining sandbagging, as me "calling someone crazy for suggesting it exists".

 

I've also said nothing about considering (or not) posting with the intent of manipulating one's cap. Go argue that one with whoever said it.

 

You "still contest that very few rounds are played by the rules of golf.  And yet posted" ? I don't believe I've commented on that but personally, I would probably agree with you.

 

However, "I don't care because it can only help me" is not "defending" the practice, it is a simple observation of the result. i.e. that person isn't hurting me, he is hurting himself.

 

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Ventus Blue 6S

Ping G425 14.5 Fairway Tour AD TP 6X

Ping G425 MAX 20.5 7 wood Diamana Blue 70 S

Titleist 716 AP-1  5-PW, DGS300

Ping Glide Forged, 48, DGS300

Taylormade MG3 52*, 56*, TW 60* DGS200

LAB Mezz Max 34*, RED, BGT Stability

Titleist Pro V1X

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

In 2000, I'm not sure that their system was using 20 scores for handicap purposes?

Quite possibly correct.  Not familiar with Finland handicap history.

Titleist TSR4 9° Tensei AV White 65

Titleist TSi3 strong 3w 13.5° Tensei AV White 70

Titleist TS3 19°  hybrid Tensei Blue/Titleist TSR3 24° Diamana Ahina

Titleist T150 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125

Vokey SM8 50° F & 56° M SM9 60°M

Cameron Newport w/ flow neck by Lamont/ Cameron Del Mar

 



 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Thank you for "admitting" (more or less) I did NOT say "sandbaggers don't affect me" NOR that I EVER said the "sandbagger issue doesn't exist".

 

And there is nothing ambiguous about what I have said on the subject.

 

Yes, I asked the OP to define sandbagging since this is HIS thread and he ASKED if his not posting casual scores was sandbagging. I said it COULD be sandbagging and that *I* considered sandbagging manipulating one's index HIGHER.

 

And I fail to see how anyone could consider the above request for, or answer to, defining sandbagging, as me "calling someone crazy for suggesting it exists".

 

I've also said nothing about considering (or not) posting with the intent of manipulating one's cap. Go argue that one with whoever said it.

 

You "still contest that very few rounds are played by the rules of golf.  And yet posted" ? I don't believe I've commented on that but personally, I would probably agree with you.

 

However, "I don't care because it can only help me" is not "defending" the practice, it is a simple observation of the result. i.e. that person isn't hurting me, he is hurting himself.

 

Well. Could you comment on it ?    That is this whole topic.  Posting when not following the rules.   Don’t tell us how to follow the rules.  Tell us your opinion on the many rounds not played by the rules , and whether or not to post them.  
 

meaning on topic.  You're initial post in this thread tells the op that his handicap should be higher than it is.  Indicating to me that you are saying  that if he post rounds when not following the ruies his cap will be higher.  “ should be higher “ also tells me that you understand that everyone does this and his should match theirs in order to be in line which is the only interpretation of “ should “.     Also leading  someone to assume that you are for and maybe also posting rounds not played by the rules.  Yes or no ?  Or will we not get on topic ?  
 

if you intend to not give  ambiguous statements then make some declarations of opinion that are clear and answer the ops question , but also explain your view.  I’ve assumed a lot from what you said. And been shot down.  So clarify in detail.  

Edited by bladehunter

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only competition that I participate in that involves my handicap is our club championship, and that is used to flight the competitors. We are a semiprivate club with a relatively small membership and most members know each other. The club cross references the rounds played in the last month with how many you played and how many scores were entered. At this time, we don’t have any guys padding their cap since winning the C flight doesn’t get you a big prize.

 

However, there are lots of players that are normally playing improved lies and gimmes even in mid season which gets exposed when they play in the Club C and they have to play by the ROG. What an amazing coincidence that they have their worst scores of the year. It happens in all flights and actually is probably a bigger program in A flight, since there is a perceived status of being a single digit handicap. With age, I have moved back one flight but mysteriously still score better than several in A flight and it happens every year.

 

That is why I don’t play in net competitions. Personally I enter all my scores accurately for evaluating my own personal journey.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

It’s not that simple.  
 

in the US a round not played with exceptions to the rules of golf is rare.  The discussion is valid.  Especially in the US.  It irritates some as they prefer to blindly follow.  But if it’s just , I’m sure it will stand up question.  
 

the subject is being ignored , really.  The only answer given is “ who cares if Its a vanity cap that makes it easier for me anyway “.  That’s not an answer to the question . That’s just an opinion based on singular bias towards winning.   

There are two sets of "rules" - the Rules of golf and the rules of handicapping.  Depending on your location, the handicapping authority determines what are acceptable scores for handicap posting.  For example, in North America, the rules of handicapping provide means to post acceptable scores that may not have been played according the the Rules of golf.  The handicapping authorities have already determined what scores are acceptable for handicaps, yet you keep arguing against those rules of handicapping.  You should explain your real issue with the rules of handicapping (in a few words).

Edited by rogolf
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

There are two sets of "rules" - the Rules of golf and the rules of handicapping.  Depending on your location, the handicapping authority determines what are acceptable scores for handicap posting.  For example, in North America, the rules of handicapping provide means to post acceptable scores that may not have been played according the the Rules of golf.  The handicapping authorities have already determined what scores are acceptable for handicaps, yet you keep arguing against those rules of handicapping.  You should explain your real issue with the rules of handicapping (in a few words).

I have. But I will again.    The issue is that the rules of golf aren’t forced to be followed.  Yet those scores are accepted by most as a-ok for handicap purposes.    
 

I do not understand how rounds with so many  local rules  ( breakfast ball , gimmies , leaf rule , root rule , rake and place in traps , roll it on the fairway etc) are posted as legit.  To me it calls into question the entire system.  Regardless of whether this lowers or raises scores.  And those same supporters are also of the opinion that a competition   only handicap is sandbagging.  It’s a little off putting to hear that opposite land idea.  It insinuates that a person who likes the idea of a competition only handicap is the cheat.  . One is posting by the rules of golf.  One is just posting - stuff.  

  • Like 1

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I have. But I will again.    The issue is that the rules of golf aren’t forced to be followed.  Yet those scores are accepted by most as a-ok for handicap purposes.    
 

I do not understand how rounds with so many  local rules  ( breakfast ball , gimmies , leaf rule , root rule , rake and place in traps , roll it on the fairway etc) are posted as legit.  To me it calls into question the entire system.  Regardless of whether this lowers or raises scores.  And those same supporters are also of the opinion that a competition   only handicap is sandbagging.  It’s a little off putting to hear that opposite land idea.  It insinuates that a person who likes the idea of a competition only handicap is the cheat.  . One is posting by the rules of golf.  One is just posting - stuff.  

This is just IMHO and try not to flame me too much. The handicap system has always been based on integrity. There are a lot of variables for a true handicap among those you mentioned plus some equipment issues regarding conforming clubs etc. Basically I would trust a handicap posted in conforming comp more than a regular posted round. And I will admit some people are not deliberate handicap cheats they simply do not know the stipulations or rules. One of the reasons I will not play handicapped events period. At one time I did get my AM status back. A friend and I played in the first Dupont World Handicap event here at the beach. I think I was a legit 3 and he near scratch. I would say our handicaps were legit because we played a lot of club comps at his Country Club. Man we got blowed out the first day by quite a few 16 hdcps and we both shot near our handicaps. then we played some other Am events. After that I said screw it and quit playing in them so did he. Later on I went back to playing the local minis here and of course lost my status again. Now I do know about sandbaggers and on the other side vanity caps too--- Like I said it all boils down to integrity.

  • Thanks 1

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I have. But I will again.    The issue is that the rules of golf aren’t forced to be followed.  Yet those scores are accepted by most as a-ok for handicap purposes.    
 

I do not understand how rounds with so many  local rules  ( breakfast ball , gimmies , leaf rule , root rule , rake and place in traps , roll it on the fairway etc) are posted as legit.  To me it calls into question the entire system.  Regardless of whether this lowers or raises scores.  And those same supporters are also of the opinion that a competition   only handicap is sandbagging.  It’s a little off putting to hear that opposite land idea.  It insinuates that a person who likes the idea of a competition only handicap is the cheat.  . One is posting by the rules of golf.  One is just posting - stuff.  

IMO much of what you mention should negate posting of scores. But in the US it is true folks post their  scores even with a breakfast ball and such. I know at my club most of the groups do play a gimme circle. Usually inside the leather. Which by WHS posting rules is the same as most likely score withs chart for how many putts to take as score when you pick up. The other stuff you mention does artificially lower scores. Much like a few other posters here I don’t really care if some do that. At my club I know who they are and will never pick them as a partner because you know their cap is a couple lower than it should be. Can we occasionally miss a putt inside the leather? Sure. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Titleist TSR4 9° Tensei AV White 65

Titleist TSi3 strong 3w 13.5° Tensei AV White 70

Titleist TS3 19°  hybrid Tensei Blue/Titleist TSR3 24° Diamana Ahina

Titleist T150 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125

Vokey SM8 50° F & 56° M SM9 60°M

Cameron Newport w/ flow neck by Lamont/ Cameron Del Mar

 



 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is amazing!  You guys are talking past each other, fuzz farming, etc... .  It's almost entertaining.

 

The real issue with handicapping is vetting.  How well scores are vetted relative to the handicap rules determines in large part how accurate the handicap indices will be.  Comp scores are really well vetted.  Pre-registered rounds (ala golf in the UK and other R&A demesnes) seem to be well vetted.  Casual rounds in the US are maybe not so well vetted (varies club to club).  Single rounds, by definition, are not vetted at all.

 

How well someone believes scores are being vetted usually determines which scores they find acceptable for posting.  If you believe that integrity is the basis for playing golf and everyone is trustworthy, then all scores are acceptable for posting.  The other end of the spectrum is that not everyone plays with integrity and only comps are acceptable scores to post.  Seems to be as simple as that.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Comp scores are really well vetted.  Pre-registered rounds (ala golf in the UK and other R&A demesnes) seem to be well vetted.  Casual rounds in the US are maybe not so well vetted (varies club to club).  Single rounds, by definition, are not vetted at all.

Amen!  I know I've said this before, I'm in the US, and as part of the continuing revisions to the WHS, I'd prefer to see the USGA move closer to the UK model, towards using Competition scores along with pre-registered and attested scores.  I think one valid criticism of the current USGA system is that there's really not a organizational way to deal with casual play, with practice rounds, with a lot of other play that may not be played either within the rules, or truly trying to make the lowest score.  From a Committee standpoint, its impossible to distinguish those rounds from the truly legitimate scores, so we expect every round played to have a score posted.  I know there would be difficulties associated with a change of this type, but I believe it can be overcome.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

Amen!  I know I've said this before, I'm in the US, and as part of the continuing revisions to the WHS, I'd prefer to see the USGA move closer to the UK model, towards using Competition scores along with pre-registered and attested scores.  I think one valid criticism of the current USGA system is that there's really not a organizational way to deal with casual play, with practice rounds, with a lot of other play that may not be played either within the rules, or truly trying to make the lowest score.  From a Committee standpoint, its impossible to distinguish those rounds from the truly legitimate scores, so we expect every round played to have a score posted.  I know there would be difficulties associated with a change of this type, but I believe it can be overcome.  

And that Dave , is pretty much all I could hope for.  And what I’ve been trying to say.  

  • Like 1

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The format of play is very important. It’s very easy to maintain a higher handicap and win $ in Fourball match or stroke play comps. Even if everything else is done correctly including attesting of scores by opponents (fellow competitors) and posting of the scores by a Committee.

 

We know from experience and from numerous posts in threads here over the years that problem players - if they are playing for money - prefer to play Fourball (and/or skins games) in general play rounds as this suits their purpose. The problem is many totally legit guys play the Fourball format and want to continue to do so. And I don’t blame them. 
 

How do you unite many WITHOUT FORCE? 

 

I can’t stand the control freaks and like my freedom. So I seek out like minded fellows and we come together on clear and workable principles. As Blade mentioned at least twice in this thread, and as we discussed here going back 10 years in various threads, a possible solution is to have a second Index based on individual stroke play Comp rounds for those that want one. I don’t know if it would work as intended, but I would like to see it tried in test areas. I don’t believe our so called elites want it.

Edited by mark m
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Titleist TSR4 9.5, Oban Devotion 6, 05 flex 65g
TM M4 Tour 3W, Oban Devotion 7, 05 flex 75g
TM R15 TP #3 (19*), Fujikura Speeder 869 X
Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 4-PW, KBS C-Taper X
Mizuno JPX 919 Forged GW, KBS C-Taper X
Vokey Wedges - SM8 56.12 & 60.08 S400
Newport 2.5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The other end of the spectrum is that not everyone plays with integrity and only comps are acceptable scores to post.

 

I play in comps that have a gross, net and skins component. Lots of people have no chance in winning either the gross or net so they go for broke trying to win skins. 

 

You'll oftentimes see single digital hcps shooting high 80s because skins are more fun. Are these legitimate rounds?  

  • Like 1

Ping G430 Max 10.5* w/ GD Tour AD TP
TaylorMade Stealth 2+ 18* w/ GD Tour AD DI

Srixon ZX MkII 19* & 24* w/x100
Titleist T100s w/ PX 6.5

Vokey SM9 48-52-56-61 w/ PX 6.5

Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Mil Spec  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It always seemed to me that two indexes would have served the world better than a compromise system like the WHS (where it seems to me that mostly the world compromised and adopted the USGA system). There is real 'power' in an index of only well vetted scores (see @ThinkingPlus recent post). And this comes from a guy who has not had a 'well vetted score' for years now.

 

But if there were a 'general play index' (just like what we have now) and an additional index (call it your VI - Vetted Index) that more serious competitions could use (or even whole countries that only used vetted scores until the WHS - just seems better to me. Lots of details to worry about like how to define a 'well vetted round' and so on. But this seemed a better solution to me. 

 

But they didn't ask 😃

 

dave

 

ps. Looks like @mark m just made a very similar suggestion. 

Edited by DaveLeeNC
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

I play in comps that have a gross, net and skins component. Lots of people have no chance in winning either the gross or net so they go for broke trying to win skins. 

 

You'll oftentimes see single digital hcps shooting high 80s because skins are more fun. Are these legitimate rounds?  

It depends somewhat on intent.  All other criteria is met as an acceptable round for posting except whether the intent was to shoot the lowest score possible.  Anytime intent figures into whether an action is proper or not, we are in a squishy situation that is hard to assess.  I don't have a good answer.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

And that Dave , is pretty much all I could hope for.  And what I’ve been trying to say.  

Yep Dave as long as I have known him on here and another golf site is very versed on the rules and is always a voice of reason. Actually one time I asked if he was like a PGAOA Pro or rules official because he was so concise on rules and procedure. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Hickory4ever said:

The only competition that I participate in that involves my handicap is our club championship, and that is used to flight the competitors. We are a semiprivate club with a relatively small membership and most members know each other. The club cross references the rounds played in the last month with how many you played and how many scores were entered. At this time, we don’t have any guys padding their cap since winning the C flight doesn’t get you a big prize.

 

However, there are lots of players that are normally playing improved lies and gimmes even in mid season which gets exposed when they play in the Club C and they have to play by the ROG. What an amazing coincidence that they have their worst scores of the year. It happens in all flights and actually is probably a bigger program in A flight, since there is a perceived status of being a single digit handicap. With age, I have moved back one flight but mysteriously still score better than several in A flight and it happens every year.

 

That is why I don’t play in net competitions. Personally I enter all my scores accurately for evaluating my own personal journey.

Ok I need yours or others opinions here--- Personally I do not keep a real stipulated handicap. I do have a friend of mine who is physically disabled and is a computer whiz that has the software to do so and does my handicaps. And I did say handicaps. Basically I keep 2 handicaps for my own purposes. One I keep with my more modern equipment read basically conforming equipment and the other with my vintage stuff. There is also the "issue" with playing from different tees on my home course. I play up one set of tees with the persimmon and blades. Also on the point of going strictly by the rules most of my vintage equipment is not on the conforming list now but was legal on the date of manufacture. I am not going to lie on my vintage stuff as an average I may be 3 strokes worse than with the moderns off the senior tees. Now if I was to really keep a stipulated handicap would it be ethical to post all scores? If I was to really sandbag I could be like 5 or 6 strokes worse from my regular tees playing the vintage equipment and then when the time comes switch to the modern stuff. In all seriousness I am not going to play any handicap events anyhow just wanted to put this out here. 

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

I play in comps that have a gross, net and skins component. Lots of people have no chance in winning either the gross or net so they go for broke trying to win skins. 

 

You'll oftentimes see single digital hcps shooting high 80s because skins are more fun. Are these legitimate rounds?  

Good point.  Another thing you see is “ greenies “.   Par 3s you’ll have single digits guys fire at  every par 3 pin , which on many courses included mine , is not the way to play par3s.  Why do they do this ?  In some big turnout games  a greenie might be worth $10 or more. When a total entry is $20 it makes sense to try to break even on greenies , and then skins are gravy.  But this isn’t shooting best score.  It’s trying to make $.  

Edited by bladehunter

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

It always seemed to me that two indexes would have served the world better than a compromise system like the WHS (where it seems to me that mostly the world compromised and adopted the USGA system). There is real 'power' in an index of only well vetted scores (see @ThinkingPlus recent post). And this comes from a guy who has not had a 'well vetted score' for years now.

 

But if there were a 'general play index' (just like what we have now) and an additional index (call it your VI - Vetted Index) that more serious competitions could use (or even whole countries that only used vetted scores until the WHS - just seems better to me. Lots of details to worry about like how to define a 'well vetted round' and so on. But this seemed a better solution to me. 

 

But they didn't ask 😃

 

dave

 

ps. Looks like @mark m just made a very similar suggestion. 

Exactly. The handicap system should work in a manner that supports how those that use it play the game. I see it as two types; Formal tournament and general play non tournament. 

 

Years ago I did a sample analysis of US golf indexes in the GHIN and found only a very small percentage had any tournament scores, and even those that did only had a couple scores. If using T scores only in the math that's Hardly enough to have a proper handicap that's good for general play. 

 

The system we have now works well if you follow the process. That includes posting non tournament and tournament scores, including those that someone thinks won't be used in their handicap calculation. I call people out regularly for not posting and have told friends their index will be adjusted down if they fail to post and I'm running an  event. 

 

Just follow the GD posting rules! It's not that difficult. 

Edited by BlackDiamondPar5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Exactly. The handicap system should work in a manner that supports how those that use it play the game. I see it as two types; Formal tournament and general play non tournament. 

 

Years ago I did a sample analysis of US golf indexes in the GHIN and found only a very small percentage had any tournament scores, and even those that did only had a couple scores. If using T scores only in the math that's Hardly enough to have a proper handicap that's good for general play. 

 

The system we have now works well if you follow the process. That includes posting non tournament and tournament scores, including those that someone thinks won't be used in their handicap calculation. I call people out regularly for not posting and have told friends their index will be adjusted down if they fail to post and I'm running an  event. 

 

Just follow the GD posting rules! It's not that difficult. 

Now you and I know that each other are coming from an honest place.  We’ve talked enough to understand that. 
 

that last line. That’s not the issue at hand. Most of us complaining are posting by the rules.  Several here have tried to tell me I’m not. Which just isn’t true.  I have an anecdote that’s also a rarity where I’ll completely stop playing out of disgust and fill the rest of the card in with MLS.  Why do I do that ?  Because to me posting the purposeful blowup , is cheating.  It’s sandbagging, it’s just a slightly sidetracked Version.  It’s based more on self hate than intent to defraud later.  But still same exact vein.  And again.  I’m talking very rare to nonexistent these days.  I don’t remember the last time.  Wasn’t in 2021.   But.  It is a real thing people go through.  and I feel like I am abiding by the rules by adjusting it on the rare occasion.  Now it was brought to my attention that the system will self correct for me in some of that.  Fine. I hadn’t considered that at all.  
 

 

The greater issue is this. very few people trust it.  Why ? We all know how many liberties are taken.  I’d like to see some sort of push to force clubs or organizations to make players play by the rules and attest rounds in any pre registered comp , including the weekly dogfights. We all preregister for those so they know how many times to block off.  This would it could up the actual  comp scores.  And might convince more to play by the rules , and thus get better.  Which will make the handicaps “ real “.  And would travel from casual to comp.   
 

my idea is that if the theory is true that people play worse in comps because they have to play by the rules then the opposite over time have to be true. That if forced , people would play better in comps if they always played by the rules.  
 

 To me if a handicap is to have any legitimacy , it should be completion geared.  Otherwise what’s it’s purpose ? To brag on ?  For signatures on a website ?  No.  It’s to compete with.  Casual or not.  Yes ?  
 

I just hate the lax attitude the game is treated with.  And do not believe that the herd will leave if forced to eat in a controlled manner.  They’re all following the examples set now. Just change the examples.   It’s proven to work in other parts of the world.  
 

to yes.  Just post.  I agree. But I don’t think that means I can’t also think that it could be better.  For all.  

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I am not sure if my HC is Vain though.

 

2021  (8.8)

2020  (12)

2019  (16)

2018  (18)

2016  (22)

 

I have been working on my game a TON.

Last winter I built a golf SIM in my garage. Yep. TGC for the win!

I have been working on my game a TON.

 

I have a golf pass in the summer and play 3 times per week and 1 or two times a month for 5 months in the Winter (Like - Now 45 minutes drive) and a round or two a week indoors.  Sometimes I play 18 inside after a round outside. My SIM HC on TGC is 7.8 FWIW.  

 

I also thought the spirit of your HC was to represent your Best golf potential.  Hence the pick up at 7 on par 4s quirk.  In my group we play to a double par for score, until the ball drops, and by the rules so on Sunday we are not trembling niinys.  I then adjust any score for my *HC entry.  So sometimes my HC score is better than I actually played which actually pisses me off to no end BECAUSE I AM TRYING TO BE BETTER at this game I have played for almost 30 years.

 

Last Summer I broke 80 3 times.  Previously in my life I had only done it 3 times.  

 

I got hot one round last year on my (Par 71 6250yds 123Rtn Flat and Mostly Tame) home course and shot a +2 (73).

 

So it is cool we all pick up at trips but playing for a low handicap is in Vain? Especially if we play a bunch.  I am the best 90 golfer ever.  That is always my goal to beat at a tough track.  Under 85 and I played good overall golf when I look at my stats. At my handicap and I am playing lights out.  It really feels right.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

It depends somewhat on intent.  All other criteria is met as an acceptable round for posting except whether the intent was to shoot the lowest score possible.  Anytime intent figures into whether an action is proper or not, we are in a squishy situation that is hard to assess.  I don't have a good answer.

 

I've had (and witnessed) plenty of tournament rounds where the swing isn't there and you're just trying to finish without losing another ball. Trying to get the lowest score doesn't even cross your mind; you just want to get in your car and drive home. 

  • Thanks 1

Ping G430 Max 10.5* w/ GD Tour AD TP
TaylorMade Stealth 2+ 18* w/ GD Tour AD DI

Srixon ZX MkII 19* & 24* w/x100
Titleist T100s w/ PX 6.5

Vokey SM9 48-52-56-61 w/ PX 6.5

Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Mil Spec  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 8 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...