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Is it Sandbagging to Post Compettive Round Scores only for Handicap Purposes?


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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Good point.  Another thing you see is “ greenies “.   Par 3s you’ll have single digits guys fire at  every par 3 pin , which on many courses included mine , is not the way to play par3s.  Why do they do this ?  In some big turnout games  a greenie might be worth $10 or more. When a total entry is $20 it makes sense to try to break even on greenies , and then skins are gravy.  But this isn’t shooting best score.  It’s trying to make $.  

 

Exactly. People play in tournaments for all kinds of reasons. 

 

Holding competitive rounds to some gold standard is ridiculous. 

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2 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

I play in comps that have a gross, net and skins component. Lots of people have no chance in winning either the gross or net so they go for broke trying to win skins. 

 

You'll oftentimes see single digital hcps shooting high 80s because skins are more fun. Are these legitimate rounds?  

Was the player trying to make the best score possible? Seems the answer would be yes.  Even if playing damn the torpedoes full speed ahead on every hole.  If the player was “on” that day he could have an abnormally good day….would that be postable?

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13 hours ago, rogolf said:

There are two sets of "rules" - the Rules of golf and the rules of handicapping.  Depending on your location, the handicapping authority determines what are acceptable scores for handicap posting.  For example, in North America, the rules of handicapping provide means to post acceptable scores that may not have been played according the the Rules of golf.  The handicapping authorities have already determined what scores are acceptable for handicaps, yet you keep arguing against those rules of handicapping.  You should explain your real issue with the rules of handicapping (in a few words).

If the above in bold is true, then we have a winner.  Post everything OP.  And that means there are going to be a lot of rounds posted that are not played by the rules of golf.  Hilarious.

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19 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Exactly. The handicap system should work in a manner that supports how those that use it play the game. I see it as two types; Formal tournament and general play non tournament. 

 

Years ago I did a sample analysis of US golf indexes in the GHIN and found only a very small percentage had any tournament scores, and even those that did only had a couple scores. If using T scores only in the math that's Hardly enough to have a proper handicap that's good for general play. 

 

The system we have now works well if you follow the process. That includes posting non tournament and tournament scores, including those that someone thinks won't be used in their handicap calculation. I call people out regularly for not posting and have told friends their index will be adjusted down if they fail to post and I'm running an  event. 

 

Just follow the GD posting rules! It's not that difficult. 


You hit the nail on the head, just follow the posting rules. Unfortunately, as a lot of the discussions here show, it does not happen that way and it is not going to change given human nature. Is handicapping an accurate assessment of the skill level of a player, that depends on the level of compliance.

 

First of all, golf is not played a single game. For centuries, golf was a match play game and as it grew exponentially, match play tournaments became harder to manage due to the number of participants. Stroke play is more commonly played in North America and in Europe and other parts of the world still play more match play or Stableford which plays much more like match play in the way it manages risk and reward.

 

I have been a certified rules official in the past and currently am part of a pilot with Golf Canada on establishing a separate Hickory Handicap as well as a modern handicap. As such, I have two separate handicaps and they are studying the differences. We need to post all hole scores and comply fully with the posting rules which are the same in Canada as the USGA. I just went over them again and the rules are clear that all rounds need to be posted with few exceptions. Tournament rounds are a check box.

 

The purpose of handicapping is to allow a means for players of different skill levels, playing different variations of the game to compete. The WHS was adopted due to statistical analysis showing it better predicted skill level and to allow people like me in Canada to go over to Europe or US and compete which I have done.

 

As stated, the reality of the situation is that compliance with the rules of golf and of course the posting rules of your national body is far from perfect. There is no handicap system that can address intentional or innocent manipulation of scores inputted. The accuracy of how a handicap reflects your ability over the last 20 games is up to you. Scores that are inputted wrong either deliberately or innocently that give you a higher index are more problematic because they give you an advantage in net play (sandbagging) which is especially damaging in stroke play. Though a “vanity” handicap is inaccurate, it does not benefit you in net play. 
 

I have run a lot of tournaments and have audited a lot of scores and the most obvious things that happen are to fail to enter all scores that the governing body says you should and secondly reporting a score on a different tee than you actually played.  By the way, this has happened for the whole forty plus years I have played, it is human nature. The two private courses over the years were more diligent in trying to insure compliance than the public courses. In general, I believe lower handicap players tend to be more compliant since a higher percentage are competing and usually have a better understanding of the rules.

 

The moral of my story is that at best, handicapping needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I will not play in an event where net scores involve money or significant prizes unless I know the group. Handicapping is useful as a guide to flighting me if I travel down to US or go over to Scotland as an example. I recognize the limitations which are usually the human factor, not the process.

 

Thanks for indulging my rant. By the way my hickory handicap is approximately 4 points higher than my modern and yes I entered all my scores in both accounts 😀😀😀.

 


 


 

 

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21 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Well. Could you comment on it ?    That is this whole topic.  Posting when not following the rules.   Don’t tell us how to follow the rules.  Tell us your opinion on the many rounds not played by the rules , and whether or not to post them.  
 

meaning on topic.  You're initial post in this thread tells the op that his handicap should be higher than it is.  Indicating to me that you are saying  that if he post rounds when not following the ruies his cap will be higher.  “ should be higher “ also tells me that you understand that everyone does this and his should match theirs in order to be in line which is the only interpretation of “ should “.     Also leading  someone to assume that you are for and maybe also posting rounds not played by the rules.  Yes or no ?  Or will we not get on topic ?  
 

if you intend to not give  ambiguous statements then make some declarations of opinion that are clear and answer the ops question , but also explain your view.  I’ve assumed a lot from what you said. And been shot down.  So clarify in detail.  

 

As usual, you're all over the place.

 

I don't believe I've been ambiguous even once. It's your A.D.D.

 

The RULES of Handicapping cover whether or not one should post such rounds (not playing by the ROG). The answer is NO.

 

I AGREED with you that players POST those rounds (not played by the ROG) anyway.

 

I TOLD you I don't care as playing against these types will be to MY advantage, and their disadvantage.

 

Now, WHAT ELSE would you like to know - that I've already said multiple times before ?

 

Now if that doesn't cover whatever you were asking, please ask ONE (hopefully short) question at a time. You know, for clarity.

 

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What about guys like me and my friends. I posted over 100 rounds last year and didn't play in any comps. The year before was the same. I play twice a week and keep a hdcp just cause I want to. I post all my scores myself and don't have a committee to review them. Most golfers I know do the same thing. We don't belong to a club and travel around our area playing public golf. We trust each others hdcps and when we bet we give strokes where needed.

 

If we only posted comp scores we wouldn't have a handicap.

 

Sounds like some of you might need to find a new group to play with.

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, CDLgolf said:

What about guys like me and my friends. I posted over 100 rounds last year and didn't play in any comps. The year before was the same. I play twice a week and keep a hdcp just cause I want to. I post all my scores myself and don't have a committee to review them. Most golfers I know do the same thing. We don't belong to a club and travel around our area playing public golf. We trust each others hdcps and when we bet we give strokes where needed.

 

If we only posted comp scores we wouldn't have a handicap.

 

Sounds like some of you might need to find a new group to play with.

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like your group is very insular.  Handicapping most certainly can work within a group like yours. 

 

As a side note, finding new groups to play with is quite fun.  That's actually why this thread exists...😁

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13 hours ago, CDLgolf said:

 

If we only posted comp scores we wouldn't have a handicap.

 

Its worth noting, for those who are not familiar with posting customs in other parts of the world, that most (all maybe?) have mechanisms to post scores from "casual rounds" too.  The most common method I've read is that the round must be pre-registered as being a handicap round, and that another player must attest the score posted.  There are probably other facets that I'm not aware of, but I don't think any jurisdiction uses ONLY competition scores.  Separately, because club management and handicap system management don't develop independently of one another, many courses around the world offer much more regular chances to compete than we see in the USGA areas, so its easier (and less expensive, I believe) to post some competition scores.

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On 1/15/2022 at 12:25 PM, bladehunter said:

Now you and I know that each other are coming from an honest place.  We’ve talked enough to understand that. 
 

that last line. That’s not the issue at hand. Most of us complaining are posting by the rules.  Several here have tried to tell me I’m not. Which just isn’t true.  I have an anecdote that’s also a rarity where I’ll completely stop playing out of disgust and fill the rest of the card in with MLS.  Why do I do that ?  Because to me posting the purposeful blowup , is cheating.  It’s sandbagging, it’s just a slightly sidetracked Version.  It’s based more on self hate than intent to defraud later.  But still same exact vein.  And again.  I’m talking very rare to nonexistent these days.  I don’t remember the last time.  Wasn’t in 2021.   But.  It is a real thing people go through.  and I feel like I am abiding by the rules by adjusting it on the rare occasion.  Now it was brought to my attention that the system will self correct for me in some of that.  Fine. I hadn’t considered that at all. 
 

 

The greater issue is this. very few people trust it.  Why ? We all know how many liberties are taken.  I’d like to see some sort of push to force clubs or organizations to make players play by the rules and attest rounds in any pre registered comp , including the weekly dogfights. We all preregister for those so they know how many times to block off.  This would it could up the actual  comp scores.  And might convince more to play by the rules , and thus get better.  Which will make the handicaps “ real “.  And would travel from casual to comp.   
 

my idea is that if the theory is true that people play worse in comps because they have to play by the rules then the opposite over time have to be true. That if forced , people would play better in comps if they always played by the rules.  
 

 To me if a handicap is to have any legitimacy , it should be completion geared.  Otherwise what’s it’s purpose ? To brag on ?  For signatures on a website ?  No.  It’s to compete with.  Casual or not.  Yes ?  
 

I just hate the lax attitude the game is treated with.  And do not believe that the herd will leave if forced to eat in a controlled manner.  They’re all following the examples set now. Just change the examples.   It’s proven to work in other parts of the world.  
 

to yes.  Just post.  I agree. But I don’t think that means I can’t also think that it could be better.  For all.  

 

Blade I respect your honesty and point of view and agree in part.  As you pointed out the system is designed to handle scoring anomalies if the posting rules are followed.  That's my gripe to anyone of my friends that comes up w/an excuse to not post--- as long as they complied in accordance to the posting rules then post and let the system do the rest.   

 

As for the concern about lack of trust.  Well that's going to happen whether it be golf, business, taxes, or anything that involves money. Greed is pretty evil at all levels.  Any system where there could be a benefit to cheating it will be exploited.  The more money to be gained the greater the incentive to cheat.  Even w/attestation there will be a way to cheat it.  

 

It's also pretty important to acknowledge that most golf in the USA is played on public courses, not private or semi-private clubs.  I don't know for a fact, and maybe someone has the data, but I believe most handicaps in the US are not from private or semi-private golf clubs either. I also know for a fact that the vast majority of handicaps in the US do not have any competition T scores, yet for some reason people like me shell out $50/year to keep an index at a public golf course.  The notion of formal weekly comps at public courses is a pretty obscure and not how those people like to play----yet that index is critical. It supports their all important socials games with friends, acquittances and often with people they may only see or play with once a year or every couple of years or playing with for the first time.  To me these folks are the backbone of golf in the USA and any handicap system should support how people play and use their indexes, not the other way around. 

 

With that said, I'd be supportive of a system that provided a competition index and an index for everything outside of formal comp. 

 

Edited by BlackDiamondPar5
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15 hours ago, CDLgolf said:

What about guys like me and my friends. I posted over 100 rounds last year and didn't play in any comps. The year before was the same. I play twice a week and keep a hdcp just cause I want to. I post all my scores myself and don't have a committee to review them. Most golfers I know do the same thing. We don't belong to a club and travel around our area playing public golf. We trust each others hdcps and when we bet we give strokes where needed.

 

If we only posted comp scores we wouldn't have a handicap.

 

Sounds like some of you might need to find a new group to play with.

 

 

 

 

 

I LOVE your post.  What you describe is the backbone of golf in the USA and probably all of North America.

Edited by BlackDiamondPar5
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30 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

 

Blade I respect your honesty and point of view and agree in part.  As you pointed out the system is designed to handle scoring anomalies if the posting rules are followed.  That's my gripe to anyone of my friends that comes up w/an excuse to not post--- as long as the complied in accordance to the posting rules then post and let the system do the rest.   

 

As for the concern about lack of trust.  Well that's going to happen whether it be golf, business, taxes, or anything that involves money. Greed is pretty evil at all levels.  Any system where there could be a benefit to cheating it will be exploited.  The more money to be gained the greater the incentive to cheat.  Even w/attestation there will be a way to cheat it.  

 

It's also pretty important to acknowledge that most golf in the USA is played on public courses, not private or semi-private clubs.  I don't know for a fact, and maybe someone has the data, but I believe most handicaps in the US are not from private or semi-private golf clubs either. I also know for a fact that the vast majority of handicaps in the US do not have any competition T scores, yet for some reason people like me shell out $50/year to keep an index at a public golf course.  The notion of formal weekly comps at public courses is a pretty obscure and not how those people like to play----yet that index is critical. It supports their all important socials games with friends, acquittances and often with people they may only see or play with once a year or every couple of years or playing with for the first time.  To me these folks are the backbone of golf in the USA and any handicap system should support how people play and use their indexes, not the other way around. 

 

With that said, I'd be supportive of a system that provided a competition index and an index for everything outside of formal comp. 

 

That may indeed be true.  I guess the question it brings to me is why ?  
 

why is the backbone of our players different than elsewhere ?  
 

i appreciate the response.  I guess my experience is just opposite.   I’ve played since 2014.  And never not one time used my handicap outside of a net club event.  It seems literally as useful as growing a 2nd thumb on each hand.  I don’t recall ever being asked what it is.  And I’ve traveled to play with my brother in law in many member guest events in Greenville Nc , I’ve played most every course at myrtle beach many times always with a group   , half of pine hurst , always with a different group of guys.  
 

anyway.  That’s the disconnect I guess.  Hard to find something useful  that doesn’t get used. An A-B player blind draw using a points game of some sort with skins , greenies and front and back winners seems to be the go to down here. 

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If playing for money, the reason people like to "negotiate" on the first tee is that they want to have a say in the terms of play.  Maybe they have an injury, maybe they haven't played in a while, etc.  These things matter in real time.  Why wouldn't those also be considerations when making a bet?

 

As long as handicaps are kept on the "honor" system, your going to see exactly what BlackDiamond and Blade described on golf courses everywhere.

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