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Handicap and Golf Courses


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I play with a guy who can shoot low 80's on some of these link style course local in the area.  He hits a really low ball and is really good at running them up on the greens, even if guarded by bunkers he has a knack of pin balling them up there.  One thing he does well is reading the fairways driving or shooting a low shot and playing the bends of the fairway.  

 

However when we get him on a target golf course he shoots 100ish.  

 

What really piqued my interest, I was reading an article that a golfer usually is within 6 - 7 strokes of his handicap if calculated correctly over time.  Well in this case I am not seeing it to be honest, there is a huge variance with his scoring.  

 

Is this common?   We recently played Hills at the LPGA, very hard course played the right tee's distance wise, 6200.   I believe 9 of the 18 holes are forced carries.  

 

It didn't effect me as bad.  I shot a pretty bad score but I was within 6 - 7 strokes of my average, ~88 - 92 is my mean.  I was still able to keep it under a 100 but he really crapped the bed.  

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It is not unusual to have a blow up round on a tough course, especially with several forced carries, especially if it is an unfamiliar course. There is a big difference playing a course with a slope rating over 130 compared to playing the same distance on a course of 115-120. In addition to the forced carries, there is more trouble and green complexes will be difficult.

 

 

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Like they say different horses for different courses--- I can somewhat relate especially now with old age and a bad back injury. I do not hit the ball as high now. Sounds like your guy has adapted his game to that style course.

 

There are also the guy whome they say "his handicap travels well" those type of players can play close to their handicap on just about any course as long as it is of appropriate yardage for their game.

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@BIG STU @Hickory4ever @jvincent

 

Here is the course we played.  

 

https://lpgainternational.com/-arthur-hills-signature-course

 

Usually play 6200 this was almost 6400.   Seriously there were at least 7 forced carries maybe 8 going to greens.  Small greens....     It was tough.   (First time playing it)

 

6339 Yards, 70.7 and 130 Slope.    It was too much for him and to be honest it was hard on me, driving it was hard keeping it in play.  

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The higher the slope of the course, the more important playing the right tee blocks becomes for most of us. Golf is meant to be fun, why beat yourself up.

 

I get to play a lot of difficult courses throughout the year. We strive to play tees that are reasonable for our ages and abilities.

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1 minute ago, Hickory4ever said:

The higher the slope of the course, the more important playing the right tee blocks becomes for most of us. Golf is meant to be fun, why beat yourself up.

 

I get to play a lot of difficult courses throughout the year. We strive to play tees that are reasonable for our ages and abilities.

 

I should of played 5800.....   They were the gold tees though, which is seniors I think.  6339 is the "mens" tee's.

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4 minutes ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

I should of played 5800.....   They were the gold tees though, which is seniors I think.  6339 is the "mens" tee's.


I don’t believe that most of the seniors I know like to play at 5800, more like 5300. The vast majority of male golfers of any age will get beat up on a 6340 yard slope 130 tee block. In my opinion, check your ego at the door, you will have more fun playing within your abilities.

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1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Like they say different horses for different courses--- I can somewhat relate especially now with old age and a bad back injury. I do not hit the ball as high now. Sounds like your guy has adapted his game to that style course.

 

There are also the guy whome they say "his handicap travels well" those type of players can play close to their handicap on just about any course as long as it is of appropriate yardage for their game.

He just put it the best way. 
personally I strive to have a great travel game instead of being a 1-5 course pony where you can shoot under, good etc but can’t go to a new course and play similar. 
 

but we get it how we live there isn’t nothing wrong with either or tbh, I just look at it as being a competent golfer 

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This thread reminded me of that "made for TV" event they did at the US Open a couple of times, where they had a few single digit celebrities and a contest winner try to break 100 on the US Open setup.  The one poor lady was a 3 or 4 but couldn't carry the hazards from the back tees at Pebble and shot like a 140.  I think they scrapped that whole concept after that year.

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2 hours ago, tw_focus said:

OP your observation is not abnormal, and remember that when you hear someone falsely claim "you are only .00x% likely to shoot N strokes over/under your handicap". It's nonsense, and the entire handicap system is nonsense.

 

Think of a golfer as having a collection of skills. One skill might be hitting high shots, another skill is hitting low shots, another is hitting approach shots from flat lies, another from hilly lies, etc. You can be a pretty good golfer on a flat course with flat lies, then have things completely blow up with you go to a course with hilly lies and unfamiliar greens. It happens everyday when a golfer who has been playing poa greens plays on bent or bermuda for the first time and starts putting. Or a golfer has only played one or two courses in their entire life with similar greens, they have zero ability to read any speed other than their normal. So they can shoot 80 at their home course and 105 at the new unfamiliar course.

 

Handicap is completely bogus. Collection of skills. Level up your individual skills to shoot low and ignore bogus handicap nonsense from nerds who have never touched a golf club.

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2 hours ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

 

I should of played 5800.....   They were the gold tees though, which is seniors I think.  6339 is the "mens" tee's.

That is another thing tee ratings according to age---- I am 64 and play the senior gold tees at my home course which is around 5800 at sea level. The guidence around here refers generally to age--- Under 50 blue tees   50 to 60 white mid tees 60 to 70 Gold Senior tees 70 to 80 Green Super Senior tees  80 up Red Womens Tees. I do not agree with that and neither do I agree with handicap ratings either on what tees someone plays from. Good example is one of my fellow members is 55 yoa and has torn up knees and does not hit a driver maybe 220 when he really hits it good. On the weekly shootout scramble he plays the gold tees with me. No one has any problem with that at all and outsiders do not question it either. Some of our Super Seniors over 70 are in good shape and play from the Green Tees and hit it as far if not further than I do. I know one guy who raised holy heck over that wanted to make them go back to the gold tees. I called BS on that as to Why should they be penalized for being in good shape and good golfers ? The same guy also complained about me hitting from the Gold. Hey all of us meet the criteria. That guy thank the Lord above quit playing with us---- Me personally have no problem with what tees someone plays regardless of age or handicap etc. The main thing is to play where you can play confortable and can have fun

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34 minutes ago, Slippin_Jimmy said:

This thread reminded me of that "made for TV" event they did at the US Open a couple of times, where they had a few single digit celebrities and a contest winner try to break 100 on the US Open setup.  The one poor lady was a 3 or 4 but couldn't carry the hazards from the back tees at Pebble and shot like a 140.  I think they scrapped that whole concept after that year.

One of the announcers on the telecast of the Kapulila tournament asked if a 5 hdcp could break 80 from the pro tees there? My wife asked me because now I am a 5 or 6  if I could? I told her hell no! not from where they were hitting. Some of those carries over trouble I could not carry over. Besides my Hdcp was rated at around 5800 yards. One of our members on WRX posted in the Tour thread he had played there a while back and he is a 5 hdcp and I presume is a younger longer hitter. I think he honestly stated he shot a 85. I told my wife honestly at 64 yoa and with a bad back I would be estatic if I broke 100 from the tournament tees on that course with no wind and playing preferred lies.

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Handicap/slope is interesting, but is a bad predictor of what one should shoot.  Course type has a huge influence on how certain golfers play.  There's a ton of mid-high handicappers who can hit the ball well, but struggle with consistency and putting/chipping/sand/etc.

 

I'm a mid-handicap, but generally end up with similar scores whether I play the easy 107/68.2 Par 71 or the more difficult 134/71.2 Par 72.  I can drive it far, hit the crap out of my hybrid and fairway wood, I can hit irons reasonably well but inconsistent, chipping sucks, putting is not bad.

 

For the most part, I can hit it over the hazards and elevation trouble the harder course brings, taking that out of play.  They place hazards and water in front of greens or 200-280 off the tee on par 5s making them play longer, which I can negate to a degree with a great second shot.  Playing this course and having a good but not great day always results in a score that helps my cap.

 

Playing the local easy muni and even shooting the same doesn't have that same effect.

 

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49 minutes ago, amace04 said:

Course type has a huge influence on how certain golfers play. 

 

This 100%. Think Sand Valley vs Harbour Town. These two courses test two very different players, in my opinion. An elite player can get around both but a weaker player is going to have some holes in their game and one or both of these courses will expose those holes differently and at a different exponential rate. 

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7 hours ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

This 100%. Think Sand Valley vs Harbour Town. These two courses test two very different players, in my opinion. An elite player can get around both but a weaker player is going to have some holes in their game and one or both of these courses will expose those holes differently and at a different exponential rate. 

I get what you are saying but your examples somewhat prove the opposite point. It’s not always one course fitting your game better than another course. The fact is HT is a much more difficult golf course than SV. According to the ratings, it is 2.6 strokes more difficult for the scratch golfer. Adjusted for par that is 3.6 strokes. The slope also shows how much more difficult it is for the bogey golfer 
 

Sand Valley 6938 par 72.
73.2 and 134

 

Harbour Town 7099 Par 71. 

75.8 and 148

 

A legit scratch golfer is very good and their games tend to travel just fine. A course being rated 3.6 strokes different (when adjusted for par) is massive. 

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15 hours ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

I play with a guy who can shoot low 80's on some of these link style course local in the area.  He hits a really low ball and is really good at running them up on the greens, even if guarded by bunkers he has a knack of pin balling them up there.  One thing he does well is reading the fairways driving or shooting a low shot and playing the bends of the fairway.  

 

However when we get him on a target golf course he shoots 100ish.  

 

What really piqued my interest, I was reading an article that a golfer usually is within 6 - 7 strokes of his handicap if calculated correctly over time.  Well in this case I am not seeing it to be honest, there is a huge variance with his scoring.  

 

Is this common?   We recently played Hills at the LPGA, very hard course played the right tee's distance wise, 6200.   I believe 9 of the 18 holes are forced carries.  

 

It didn't effect me as bad.  I shot a pretty bad score but I was within 6 - 7 strokes of my average, ~88 - 92 is my mean.  I was still able to keep it under a 100 but he really crapped the bed.  

 

14 hours ago, Paddy_2_Iron said:

@BIG STU @Hickory4ever @jvincent

 

Here is the course we played.  

 

https://lpgainternational.com/-arthur-hills-signature-course

 

Usually play 6200 this was almost 6400.   Seriously there were at least 7 forced carries maybe 8 going to greens.  Small greens....     It was tough.   (First time playing it)

 

6339 Yards, 70.7 and 130 Slope.    It was too much for him and to be honest it was hard on me, driving it was hard keeping it in play.  

 

Well ol' Paddy. Seems like you're making us guess the rest of the story.

 

How LONG is your buddy ?

 

Your descriptions suggest he's play along the ground. And then you tell us of 7 forced carries off the tee and 8 forced carries to the greens, something it sounds like he can't do (pinballing the ball up onto the green).

 

If that's true I'm not surprised at all he can't score on the 2nd course.

 

As for handicapping, one's index no longer represents their "potential" but their "demonstrated ability".

 

And generally speaking the lower a player's handicap the more consistently the player will shoot NEAR his index.

 

But everybody has blowup holes, sometimes even in a round near his index. And everybody has blowup rounds as well. coffee.gif

 

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I appreciate all the insights, this has been ridiculously informative.  I really hope this thread continues on, I am learning a ton.  Dan iteach talked about this at my lone lessons with him.  Said it's important to play courses that suit your game if you are just starting / higher handicap.  That's me.   

 

I was playing a neighborhood course (I live on a golf course) and I was coming in around 105.  Playing the blues (6100 remember community course) postage stamp greens, narrow fairways etc...   

 

I upped my iron game quite a bit (with Monte's drills) but what really did it for me is playing wide open courses for tee shots.  That's my miss and it helps me get into the high 80s or low 90s.  If I play a beast course even from the whites if I lose focus I can get to a 100 still.  Normally not though, usually 95.  Stronger mentality and some additional skills.  

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10 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I get what you are saying but your examples somewhat prove the opposite point. It’s not always one course fitting your game better than another course. The fact is HT is a much more difficult golf course than SV. According to the ratings, it is 2.6 strokes more difficult for the scratch golfer. Adjusted for par that is 3.6 strokes. The slope also shows how much more difficult it is for the bogey golfer 
 

Sand Valley 6938 par 72.
73.2 and 134

 

Harbour Town 7099 Par 71. 

75.8 and 148

 

A legit scratch golfer is very good and their games tend to travel just fine. A course being rated 3.6 strokes different (when adjusted for par) is massive. 

 

Fair enough. When I played Harbour Town I played from the yellow tees (5867 yds - 69.6 - 131) because I was realistic about my game and knew I need to play a distance that would allow me to hit Hybrid off most tees and still be able to hit greens in regulation. Playing from an equivalent distance at Sand Valley would be the Sand tees (6000 yds - 69.6 - 127) which for me would only be about a 1 shot difference. Caveat: I have never played Sand Valley but based on looking at it on Google Earth I reckon I could hit Driver A LOT out there and keep it in play (many landing zones look to be 70 yds wide) plus it is about 1,000 ft higher elevation wise than HT which gives me a bit more pop. All that to say, I am pretty confident that I could beat my HT score by at least a few shots. 

 

The point I was making was about weaker golfers struggling between certain types of courses. I can appreciate the point you are making but, honestly, there is no reason in the world why a mid (or even mid single) digit handicap should be anywhere near the tips at Harbour Town. Which is why I said "a weaker player....".

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I think there needs to be an additional calculation layer for handicaps and course ratings. I suffer from the same thing as this thread starter. I fluctuate between 2-3 hdcp and always find myself feeling confused at the round results. My specs are:

Driver distance: 250-260

7 Iron: 160

 

I think a player handicap needs to be categorized by tees/distance. A scratch golfer from Bronze can be a 8 hdcp from silvers and 14 hdcp from blacks. 

Example:

Course specs:

Black: 6820    74.4/133

Silver: 6520   72.3/124

Bronze: 6158   70.5/121

 

The course has 3 par 3s with forces carry over water on multiple sides that are all over 200 yards from Blacks. The 4th par 3 is 190 yard.

I have seen many times where low handicap golfers who usually play from the silvers or bronze, are having to hit 3 wood or more on these holes. The result is they put it in the water on all holes ad get stroke penalties. It is basically guaranteed that they will incur at least 3 penalty strokes because it is not realistic for them to hit the green. They then need to drop and still hit a shot over the water from closer up which still runs risk of more penalty strokes if they miss it short, or to the sides.

 

My point is, thee difference in adjusted par is only 2 strokes silver to black tees, yet, the realistic loss for a player who doesn't have the distance and accuracy with a 3 wood, will automatically incur 3 strokes at minimum penalty. This is just for the par 3 holes!

It doesn't add up.

 

 Golfers should have multiple handicaps depending on the tees they play from, you cannot give one handicap figure that suits all tees and distances. 

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28 minutes ago, Desh said:

I think there needs to be an additional calculation layer for handicaps and course ratings. I suffer from the same thing as this thread starter. I fluctuate between 2-3 hdcp and always find myself feeling confused at the round results. My specs are:

Driver distance: 250-260

7 Iron: 160

 

I think a player handicap needs to be categorized by tees/distance. A scratch golfer from Bronze can be a 8 hdcp from silvers and 14 hdcp from blacks. 

Example:

Course specs:

Black: 6820    74.4/133

Silver: 6520   72.3/124

Bronze: 6158   70.5/121

 

The course has 3 par 3s with forces carry over water on multiple sides that are all over 200 yards from Blacks. The 4th par 3 is 190 yard.

I have seen many times where low handicap golfers who usually play from the silvers or bronze, are having to hit 3 wood or more on these holes. The result is they put it in the water on all holes ad get stroke penalties. It is basically guaranteed that they will incur at least 3 penalty strokes because it is not realistic for them to hit the green. They then need to drop and still hit a shot over the water from closer up which still runs risk of more penalty strokes if they miss it short, or to the sides.

 

My point is, thee difference in adjusted par is only 2 strokes silver to black tees, yet, the realistic loss for a player who doesn't have the distance and accuracy with a 3 wood, will automatically incur 3 strokes at minimum penalty. This is just for the par 3 holes!

It doesn't add up.

 

 Golfers should have multiple handicaps depending on the tees they play from, you cannot give one handicap figure that suits all tees and distances. 


The whole handicap system is a complete joke. It depends, mainly, upon each player’s integrity. Probably this is the reason why players tend to play with those off similar marks. 

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On 1/11/2022 at 7:45 AM, Paddy_2_Iron said:

I play with a guy who can shoot low 80's on some of these link style course local in the area.  He hits a really low ball and is really good at running them up on the greens, even if guarded by bunkers he has a knack of pin balling them up there.  One thing he does well is reading the fairways driving or shooting a low shot and playing the bends of the fairway.  

 

However when we get him on a target golf course he shoots 100ish.  

 

What really piqued my interest, I was reading an article that a golfer usually is within 6 - 7 strokes of his handicap if calculated correctly over time.  Well in this case I am not seeing it to be honest, there is a huge variance with his scoring.  

 

Is this common?   We recently played Hills at the LPGA, very hard course played the right tee's distance wise, 6200.   I believe 9 of the 18 holes are forced carries.  

 

It didn't effect me as bad.  I shot a pretty bad score but I was within 6 - 7 strokes of my average, ~88 - 92 is my mean.  I was still able to keep it under a 100 but he really crapped the bed.  

The handicap system isn't perfect which is why I avoid net games by any means neccessary.

 

I play with a guy at my home course that plays 200+ rounds at our (Parkland style) course.  He shots 73-75 almost every round at home.  He might play 3 rounds at most on a different course and every time I've played with him away from home he struggles to break 90.  He's an extreme case because he plays over 99% of his rounds on one course but I've seen a lot of golfers that can't even come close to their handicap when you take them out of their comfort zone.

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12 minutes ago, PhlashPhace said:

The handicap system isn't perfect which is why I avoid net games by any means neccessary.

 

I play with a guy at my home course that plays 200+ rounds at our (Parkland style) course.  He shots 73-75 almost every round at home.  He might play 3 rounds at most on a different course and every time I've played with him away from home he struggles to break 90.  He's an extreme case because he plays over 99% of his rounds on one course but I've seen a lot of golfers that can't even come close to their handicap when you take them out of their comfort zone.


In the U.K. this is very common. I remember c 1970: the category 1 system was c 10 rounds per year to your handicap to retain it, with c 2 rounds at away courses. Those struggling might select 2 easy tracks. Category 2 and above was 1 score in each half of year, home course or elsewhere.
 

Because we kept losing the Walker Cup *1 , the rulers tightened things up, for Cat 1 at first I think. Then the whole thing became a farce and bureaucratic nightmare and we still lose the Walker Cup. 
 

*1= This was because handicap limits applied to top amateur events and real class players could be balloted out and so miss International selection.  

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12 minutes ago, Desh said:

This might have been discussed already, but what is wrong with just using the "average score" figure instead? I think this is way more accurate.

 

That is what I use to determine if I am getting better or not. To be specific, I use average DIFFERENTIAL rather than score since courses can obviously vary in difficulty or can be par 70s, etc. 

 

Handicap is your "potential" and, depending on how consistent someone is, can differ significantly from your average differential. I like looking at my anti-cap (the other 12 differentials from the last 20 that can be averaged) vs my handicap as well to get an indication as to how volatile I have been. Personally, handicaps are not terribly useful for me. I don't care how I do in a tournament on a "net" basis. Gross is all that matters to me. And this is when I don't have a chance in hell of winning a tournament gross as a 5 hdcp. 

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1 minute ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

That is what I use to determine if I am getting better or not. To be specific, I use average DIFFERENTIAL rather than score since courses can obviously vary in difficulty or can be par 70s, etc. 

 

Handicap is your "potential" and, depending on how consistent someone is, can differ significantly from your average differential. I like looking at my anti-cap (the other 12 differentials from the last 20 that can be averaged) vs my handicap as well to get an indication as to how volatile I have been. Personally, handicaps are not terribly useful for me. I don't care how I do in a tournament on a "net" basis. Gross is all that matters to me. And this is when I don't have a chance in hell of winning a tournament gross as a 5 hdcp. 

This is a good explanation.  I'm a low handicap but the most dangerous person to play against is a high handicap that hits it far because of their volatility.  I shot within a couple shots of my average round every time I play where I've seen a high handicap that hits it far beat his handicap by 10 shots.  I could never do that.

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On 1/11/2022 at 9:29 AM, Hickory4ever said:


I don’t believe that most of the seniors I know like to play at 5800, more like 5300. The vast majority of male golfers of any age will get beat up on a 6340 yard slope 130 tee block. In my opinion, check your ego at the door, you will have more fun playing within your abilities.

 

On 1/11/2022 at 11:28 AM, Slippin_Jimmy said:

This thread reminded me of that "made for TV" event they did at the US Open a couple of times, where they had a few single digit celebrities and a contest winner try to break 100 on the US Open setup.  The one poor lady was a 3 or 4 but couldn't carry the hazards from the back tees at Pebble and shot like a 140.  I think they scrapped that whole concept after that year.

 

That door swings both ways.  I can hit equally wayward shots playing a 6200 yard course where I rarely have to hit driver and there is a need to lay-up regularly, as I can on a 7000 yard course where I am hitting driver 14 times.  Distance isn't always the issue as to why someone's handicap is what it is.  I don't think I am a unicorn either.

 

 

On 1/11/2022 at 2:42 PM, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

This 100%. Think Sand Valley vs Harbour Town. These two courses test two very different players, in my opinion. An elite player can get around both but a weaker player is going to have some holes in their game and one or both of these courses will expose those holes differently and at a different exponential rate. 

 

How you play is a factor as well.  If you grip and rip and make your hay when you can get on par fives in two by virtue of length you will likely struggle some on the courses that call for more shot-making or a more measured, point-to-point approach.  

 

Some people have honed a high driver shot to cut corners over trees.  On parkland type courses that shot can really help you.  And I'd venture most US courses fit a parkland description.

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