Beginner fit into low-spin shaft?

[Luckydutch]

I had a free fitting this week for my first driver and I'm not completely confident in the results so would appreciate a second-opinion.

 

I don't currently own a driver and have only ever hit one when borrowing a friend's old one for a bit. This made the fitting quite challenging as I was finding it difficult to get used to hitting up on the ball without delivering way too much dynamic loft. It made it almost impossible for me to really get a good sense as to whether I preferred one loft option or shaft from another. I was also a little tentative in my swings as I was focusing on so many things so I wasn't swinging with my true potential speed.

 

Eventually, the fitter settled on a 9 degree head and stiff HZRDUS Smoke Yellow shaft. He said that that would be the best combination for me to grow into because I have the potential to be a fast swinger, even though I wasn't on the day. I did ask him to fit for where I might be in a few months' time after I have had some lessons dedicated to driver.

 

I came away semi-content except for the fact that even on my better strikes, the distances where a little underwhelming. 

 

Since the fitting, I dug into the trackman data a bit and noticed that my spin and launch angle on the better strikes was really low and looking at both the trackman optimizer and the ping distance chart would suggest that I need more loft and more spin to optimize my distance. Here's an example of one of my better swings (220 carry, 250 total):

 

 

It looks like it could have gone much further simply if it had more spin and launched higher.

 

 

I've put a little red box there around where I currently am with my 'good' swings. I reckon I probably could reach 150 ball speeds with a bit more confidence as my 7i club speed is mid-90s, I should be able to swing over 100 with driver with some practice.

 

The purple box is where I'd need to be to be efficient with those spin numbers and 9 degrees of loft from the driver. I'm just not sure if I can reach that. That's incredibly fast ball speed and I would need to make BIG improvements to hitting up on the ball too.

 

Should I be concerned that the loft/shaft combo recommended to me is too far away from my current ability? Or am I miss-interpreting this information and actually it is OK?

Would really appreciate some guidance.

[MrCook]

Imagine fitting someone into a combo resulting in 1900 spin. Of course your distance is lacking, the ball will just plummet out of the air. So no, you're not misinterpreting the data, the combo is as far away from a decent fit as it gets.

 

Takeaways for you: Don't buy the combo, and don't visit that fitter again. At least the fitting was free.

 

Out of curiosity, which head did they fit you into?

[Luckydutch]

7 minutes ago, MrCook said:

Imagine fitting someone into a combo resulting in 1900 spin. Of course your distance is lacking, the ball will just plummet out of the air. So no, you're not misinterpreting the data, the combo is as far away from a decent fit as it gets.

 

Takeaways for you: Don't buy the combo, and don't visit that fitter again. At least the fitting was free.

 

Out of curiosity, which head did they fit you into?

 

In fairness, if I show you all my data, you will see how difficult I made the fitter's job!

 

It was PXG and I fit for the 0211 driver head

 

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Luckydutch

[Luckydutch]

This is another OK-ish strike with the same shaft. Way better spin but my ball-speed was way down so it didn't go anywhere.

 

I was so afraid of skying the ball and damaging the man's club head that I was a bit wooden and tentative with many of the swings. Big pause at the top etc. No power.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Luckydutch

[MrCook]

I see. I somehow thought the numbers in your OP were averages.

 

I agree, the numbers are all over the place, which is to be expected if you never owned a driver let alone practiced with one a decent amount.

 

Low efficiency can have a lot of different reasons. Without knowing impact positions, it's almost impossible to tell what caused it.

 

Regarding the shaft, are you an aggressive swinger? How does the Smoke Yellow feel to you? It's a good shaft, but has a tendency to feel harsh even for faster swingers, so chances are that it's just too much shaft for someone new to swinging a driver.

Edited January 14, 2022 by MrCook

[bvanlieu]

Your CHS is sub 100, your face to path varies, shape and strike is gonna wander. Seeing as many shots where spin is 2400-2800 I would say is pretty darn good. with the good carries being out 220-230ish. 

 

The sub 2000 outliers are there with the 3K+ ones. You generally are swinging up a smidge and loft isn't horrible, but your quality of strike and ball speed numbers you can see are gonna vary (again, still learning the weapon). You swap out the low 130's ball speeds with a 140ish and the shape is going to look better for sure. 

 

 

Non-beginners struggle with that optimized chart: its just targets certainly *not* the norm of strikes we all make. 

 

At your level I would want the fitter to try to get you into a decent weight and profile that you feel comfortable trying to get a good tempo and load on and work with a pro to better that swing. 5 out of 10 decent strikes ain't too shabby IMHO.

 

- b

 

[Howard_Jones]

58 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

I had a free fitting this week for my first driver and I'm not completely confident in the results so would appreciate a second-opinion.

 

I don't currently own a driver and have only ever hit one when borrowing a friend's old one for a bit. This made the fitting quite challenging as I was finding it difficult to get used to hitting up on the ball without delivering way too much dynamic loft. It made it almost impossible for me to really get a good sense as to whether I preferred one loft option or shaft from another. I was also a little tentative in my swings as I was focusing on so many things so I wasn't swinging with my true potential speed.

 

Eventually, the fitter settled on a 9 degree head and stiff HZRDUS Smoke Yellow shaft. He said that that would be the best combination for me to grow into because I have the potential to be a fast swinger, even though I wasn't on the day. I did ask him to fit for where I might be in a few months' time after I have had some lessons dedicated to driver.

 

I came away semi-content except for the fact that even on my better strikes, the distances where a little underwhelming. 

 

Since the fitting, I dug into the trackman data a bit and noticed that my spin and launch angle on the better strikes was really low and looking at both the trackman optimizer and the ping distance chart would suggest that I need more loft and more spin to optimize my distance. Here's an example of one of my better swings (220 carry, 250 total):

 

 

It looks like it could have gone much further simply if it had more spin and launched higher.

 

 

I've put a little red box there around where I currently am with my 'good' swings. I reckon I probably could reach 150 ball speeds with a bit more confidence as my 7i club speed is mid-90s, I should be able to swing over 100 with driver with some practice.

 

The purple box is where I'd need to be to be efficient with those spin numbers and 9 degrees of loft from the driver. I'm just not sure if I can reach that. That's incredibly fast ball speed and I would need to make BIG improvements to hitting up on the ball too.

 

Should I be concerned that the loft/shaft combo recommended to me is too far away from my current ability? Or am I miss-interpreting this information and actually it is OK?

Would really appreciate some guidance.

I have to be short this time

The shafts job is NOT to deliver or reduce spin, but weight, feel and dispersion.

Launch and spin is LOFT, so if you want more launch and spin, you need more loft, not a different shaft. If the shaft weight was good, feel was good, dispersion good, its nothing wrong with the shaft, you simply need more loft.

and DONT look at Trackmans "optimum charts"...its not even close to what we can make of it

You are close to 100 mph, then 150 mph ball speed should be target
Click for larger size

Edited January 14, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Luckydutch]

55 minutes ago, MrCook said:

I see. I somehow thought the numbers in your OP were averages.

 

I agree, the numbers are all over the place, which is to be expected if you never owned a driver let alone practiced with one a decent amount.

 

Low efficiency can have a lot of different reasons. Without knowing impact positions, it's almost impossible to tell what caused it.

 

Regarding the shaft, are you an aggressive swinger? How does the Smoke Yellow feel to you? It's a good shaft, but has a tendency to feel harsh even for faster swingers, so chances are that it's just too much shaft for someone new to swinging a driver.

 

Not sure whether I would describe myself as an aggressive swinger or not. I'm tall and quite explosive generally in sports but I've been really focusing hard on technique with golf and I try not to swing too wildly.

 

I've recently reached the point with my irons where I've started doing my transition a bit earlier, almost just before I reach the top of the backswing and that's added a fair bit of power back into my irons but I'm still trying to be somewhat controlled. I was recently fit into 95g stiff irons but they haven't arrived yet.

 

Don't tell the missus but here's an example from a bit of indoor practice I shouldn't have been doing 🤫

 

https://imgur.com/a/qMmWmcr

Edited January 14, 2022 by Luckydutch

[cgasucks]

It is pretty useless and foolish for a high handicapper to get a $500 shaft with a $400 head that was fitted at their local club champion if he/she hits it all over the face.  It's like 16 year old learning to drive in the same car that Paul Walker died in (a car that intimates even Formula 1 drivers).  The numbers generated at the time of fitting will change as time goes on, especially as his/her swing gets better.

 

I suggest sticking to what you have and getting lessons and practice and working on accuracy and the solidity of shots.  Once you get more consistent and hit it on the button more often, then you can get a pro-level fitting to squeeze out a few more extra yards.

Edited January 14, 2022 by cgasucks

[Luckydutch]

12 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

I have to be short this time

The shafts job is NOT to deliver or reduce spin, but weight, feel and dispersion.

Launch and spin is LOFT, so if you want more launch and spin, you need more loft, not a different shaft. If the shaft weight was good, feel was good, dispersion good, its nothing wrong with the shaft, you simply need more loft.

and DONT look at Trackmans "optimum charts"...its not even close to what we can make of it

You are close to 100 mph, then 150 mph ball speed should be target
Click for larger size

 

 

That's really helpful, thanks.

 

In terms of feel, yeah I quite liked the shaft. I don't have a huge amount of experience to compare it to but I was comfortable with it.

 

Dispersion, relative to my experience with driver was acceptable:

 

 

Drawing the ball more than I would want but I would like to hope that would tighten-up with practice. Most of my limited golf career has been spent slicing due to an over-the-top swing but I've recently learnt to reign that in a bit but that heavy draw bias might be a bit of over-correcting.

[Luckydutch]

1 minute ago, cgasucks said:

It is pretty useless and foolish for a high handicapper to get a $500 shaft with a $400 head that was fitted at their local club champion if he/she hits it all over the face.  The numbers generated at the time of fitting will change as time goes on, especially as his/her swing gets better.

 

I suggest sticking to what you have and getting lessons and practice and working on accuracy and the solidity of shots.  Once you get more consistent and hit it on the button more often, then you can get a pro-level fitting to squeeze out a few more extra yards.

 

I don't disagree but I don't have anything right now. I need to buy a driver to learn to hit driver! 🙂

 

This driver + shaft was only £205 all-in so it's less than a lot of second-hand drivers. Bit of a steal!

[Howard_Jones]

5 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

 

 

That's really helpful, thanks.

 

In terms of feel, yeah I quite liked the shaft. I don't have a huge amount of experience to compare it to but I was comfortable with it.

 

Dispersion, relative to my experience with driver was acceptable:

 

 

Drawing the ball more than I would want but I would like to hope that would tighten-up with practice. Most of my limited golf career has been spent slicing due to an over-the-top swing but I've recently learnt to reign that in a bit but that heavy draw bias might be a bit of over-correcting.

You are closing up to much, that also lower loft, reduce launch and spin.
Pay attention to how "strong" your right hand is...probably to strong, or to active hands...slow down, dont "push it" thinking of speed, its delivery to the ball and impact position that matters the most.
When we try to hard, we loose both distance and dispersion

Edited January 14, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Luckydutch]

13 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

You are closing up to much, that also lower loft, reduce launch and spin.
Pay attention to how "strong" your right hand is...probably to strong, or to active hands...slow down, dont "push it" thinking of speed, its delivery to the ball and impact position that matters the most.
When we try to hard, we loose both distance and dispersion

That’s great advice, thanks.

 

The closing also reducing spin/loft would totally explain why I’m getting a lot of over-draws without the height to reach their carry potential.

 

I think a contributing factor for me may be that I took to bowing my left wrist in the backswing to counteract a slice that was coming from an OTT move. Now that I’m swinging more on-plane and from the inside, I probably don’t need that bowing anymore and a flat left wrist would serve me better.

 

These are things I definitely can work on once I get the driver.

[jmcm87]

48 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

It is pretty useless and foolish for a high handicapper to get a $500 shaft with a $400 head that was fitted at their local club champion if he/she hits it all over the face.  It's like 16 year old learning to drive in the same car that Paul Walker died in (a car that intimates even Formula 1 drivers).  The numbers generated at the time of fitting will change as time goes on, especially as his/her swing gets better.

 

I suggest sticking to what you have and getting lessons and practice and working on accuracy and the solidity of shots.  Once you get more consistent and hit it on the button more often, then you can get a pro-level fitting to squeeze out a few more extra yards.

Yes. This. 

 

Lot's of time to tinker and toy and get fit when you can provide more consistent data. Invest in lessons for now. 

[bnperrone]

I may get corrected on this, but I’m told there’s only one scenario where you would do a fitting while also manipulating your swing. That’s when the fitting is done in conjunction with instruction AND the instructor has worked with you enough to know your old and current swing, and has confidence that they can get  you to the point where the swing they want you to make during the fitting will become your repeatable swing.

 

I get that you have to start somewhere, but it sounds like you weren’t swinging your own swing in the fitting and don’t have clear guidance. That would make the results sketchy. Not trying to be rude, and I hope this is helpful.

[Phabs]

Hzrdus yellows are 500 dollar shafts?  Damn.  I took a loss at about 50 bucks for mine…

[bluedot]

I believe deeply in club fitting, and I also believe that waiting on swing changes before getting fitted is foolish.

 

That said, I have NO confidence that this was a good fitting, and I don’t see how it could possibly be a good purchase. On the face of it, the number of amateur golfers who will be at their best with a 9* head is pretty small, IMO.  The likelihood of a 9* head being best for a player who currently doesn’t hit a driver at all seems REALLY small.

 

Even some of the last few swings where your club head speeds were up, you weren’t getting matching distance.

 

I’m curious, but unless I’ve missed something, you have no data for any loft above 9*. Did you hit a 10.5* at all?  Starting ANYBODY in a 9* head and just staying there despite these numbers would seem really odd, to say the least.

[Howard_Jones]

5 hours ago, bluedot said:

I believe deeply in club fitting, and I also believe that waiting on swing changes before getting fitted is foolish.

 

That said, I have NO confidence that this was a good fitting, and I don’t see how it could possibly be a good purchase. On the face of it, the number of amateur golfers who will be at their best with a 9* head is pretty small, IMO.  The likelihood of a 9* head being best for a player who currently doesn’t hit a driver at all seems REALLY small.

 

Even some of the last few swings where your club head speeds were up, you weren’t getting matching distance.

 

I’m curious, but unless I’ve missed something, you have no data for any loft above 9*. Did you hit a 10.5* at all?  Starting ANYBODY in a 9* head and just staying there despite these numbers would seem really odd, to say the least.

If you look over the numbers, its quite clear that this club fitting was done to "fix" a flipping hand issue, and its NOT how it should be done, but its done, and the player is not unhappy with it.

He should now work on his swing, and most likely go shorter on club length to have a fair chance to improve. Loft itself is not that important in the end in this case, simply because the player will never actually play "a 9* lofted head".

His variables to impact is still overruling loft, and since all drivers have face roll, and his impact is both high and low on the face, combined with a variable angle of attach, its no big deal what loft he starts from.

We dont even know "true loft" on the drivers we buy, so for all we know, the actual head is 10.25*, maybe only 8*?

If the player is happy with the deal, he have a driver, and can modify it to improve it, and it has a adjustable hosel for loft change when his swing starts to develop into a pattern, so IMO...the fitting done could be way better, but its not a total disaster if the deal itself was good.

To the OP, read this tread im linking to now, and dont hold back, but ask for help if you feel the need for it. Its many users here who will gladly help you to make your driver easier to play, and its simple stuff most club fitters ignore. (i assume you was sent home with a club with standard length, but hardly any "WRX member" plays standard...we go shorter to make it easier to get a good impact, and we gain both distance and dispersion that way...you should do the same.
 

 

[Luckydutch]

On 1/15/2022 at 8:06 PM, Howard_Jones said:

If you look over the numbers, its quite clear that this club fitting was done to "fix" a flipping hand issue, and its NOT how it should be done, but its done, and the player is not unhappy with it.

He should now work on his swing, and most likely go shorter on club length to have a fair chance to improve. Loft itself is not that important in the end in this case, simply because the player will never actually play "a 9* lofted head".

His variables to impact is still overruling loft, and since all drivers have face roll, and his impact is both high and low on the face, combined with a variable angle of attach, its no big deal what loft he starts from.

We dont even know "true loft" on the drivers we buy, so for all we know, the actual head is 10.25*, maybe only 8*?

If the player is happy with the deal, he have a driver, and can modify it to improve it, and it has a adjustable hosel for loft change when his swing starts to develop into a pattern, so IMO...the fitting done could be way better, but its not a total disaster if the deal itself was good.

To the OP, read this tread im linking to now, and dont hold back, but ask for help if you feel the need for it. Its many users here who will gladly help you to make your driver easier to play, and its simple stuff most club fitters ignore. (i assume you was sent home with a club with standard length, but hardly any "WRX member" plays standard...we go shorter to make it easier to get a good impact, and we gain both distance and dispersion that way...you should do the same.
 

 

 

 

Thanks for the follow-up there, Howard.

 

I didn't proceed with the purchase immediately, I questioned the low-spin/launch shaft with the fitter (awaiting response) and also separately did a different fitting at a local retailer.

 

The retailer had me try the new Taylormade Stealth and the PING G425.

 

I didn't really like the Stealth. Can't say why, something just seemed off about it at address. Perhaps it was the shape or twistface.

 

I did much better with the G425 and as this was my second fitting, I had the confidence to crank-up the speed a little.

 

I was swinging with clubhead speeds in the 100-107mph range at what I would say felt like a '90% effort' swing. Ball speeds and carries were up as a consequence. 

 

What was interesting was he also fit me into a lower loft head. We tried the 10.5 initially but dropped it to 9.5. I was balooning the 10.5 even on shots with shots where I nicely squared the face. I was also able to consistently hit up on the ball a bit more than in the first fitting (2-5 degrees up vs 0-2 in the first fitting)

 

I'm at the point now where I feel relatively comfortable in the 9 degree head. I can always increase the loft at the hosel a bit which will also help with closing the face a touch - not a bad thing for me to begin with. I'd be happy to have a one-side miss.

 

I'm less confident in the shaft. I wasn't able to hit that Hzrdus Smoke again with the higher swing speed so I don't really know for sure what that would be like. I want something that I can 'grow into' a little as I am early in my golf journey and improving fast (gone from scoring 125 to mid-90s with just irons in the past 3 months). However, I don't want something that's objectively wrong for me and going to cause me to lose significant distance due to lack of spin/launch.

 

Alternative options would be Evenflow Riptide (also counter-balanced and designed for similar tempo but higher launch/spin) or the Diamana S+. However, I've not been able to test either and PXG aren't back in my area for months now.

 

Regarding length, PXG fit me for 45.5 length. He said theirs were a touch shorter than standard. I'm 6ft3 and have my irons +1/2 (when they arrive - they're in the post).

Edited January 17, 2022 by Luckydutch