Lie Angle at address

[dlow206]

Ok, I understand that everyone says lie angle at address doesn't matter and only lie angle at impact matters. I get that.

 

However, when I setup with my irons, i hate how much toe up they look at address. To my eye, they are so toe up i don't even know if i am aiming them correctly. haven't done a dynamic lie angle test yet, but i am sure i have gotten used to the irons enough that i could manipulate the club enough at this point. however, on course i will hit an occasional giant pull hook with a mid or short iron and its like WTF was that. 

 

For reference, i am short 5'4-ish, short legs, average to slightly long arms (proportionately). My wrist to floor is about 30.5". 

 

[Rosco1216]

Are you just making a statement or Was there supposed to be a question in there?

Edited January 18, 2022 by Rosco1216

[mitchnpat1]

1 minute ago, Rosco1216 said:

Are you just making a statement or Was there supposed to be a question in there?

 

yes

[dlow206]

12 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

Are you just making a statement or Was there supposed to be a question in there?

 

7 minutes ago, mitchnpat1 said:

 

yes

 

Sorry. the question is around is there a point where the lie angle is too upright at address that it will cause you to have to start to manipulate the club as a result

[Cwebb]

54 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

Ok, I understand that everyone says lie angle at address doesn't matter and only lie angle at impact matters. I get that.

 

However, when I setup with my irons, i hate how much toe up they look at address. To my eye, they are so toe up i don't even know if i am aiming them correctly. haven't done a dynamic lie angle test yet, but i am sure i have gotten used to the irons enough that i could manipulate the club enough at this point. however, on course i will hit an occasional giant pull hook with a mid or short iron and its like WTF was that. 

 

For reference, i am short 5'4-ish, short legs, average to slightly long arms (proportionately). My wrist to floor is about 30.5". 

 

 

Yeah, that's way too upright.  You would have to make a awful golf swing, in order to get those to dynamically flatten out enough into impact.

 

You likely need shorter club lengths, in addition to flatter lie angles

[dlow206]

30 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

Yeah, that's way too upright.  You would have to make a awful golf swing, in order to get those to dynamically flatten out enough into impact.

 

You likely need shorter club lengths, in addition to flatter lie angles

 

Thanks. Thats what i was trying to get an answer to. I always hear on WRX and from fitters that only dynamic lie angle at impact is what matters, but i've felt that there can also be a wrong starting point as well, especially for folks that are outside of the bell curve for height/wrist to floor, etc. 

[bnperrone]

Yeah, you don’t want it completely flat on the floor at address, but that looks pretty extreme and I can’t imagine the move you’d have to make to get the sole correct at impact. Were you fit into that length and lie?

[dlow206]

8 minutes ago, bnperrone said:

Yeah, you don’t want it completely flat on the floor at address, but that looks pretty extreme and I can’t imagine the move you’d have to make to get the sole correct at impact. Were you fit into that length and lie?

 

So this is where I didn't do enough critical thinking before buying stuff lol. 

 

What I mean by that is that I was fit a while back based on a static chart. -0.5", 2 degrees flat. At that time, I happened to buy a set of Mizuno JPX 919 hot metal, and Mizuno happens to be on the flatter end for stock specs out of the OEMs. As I have bought different iron sets since then, I have now ended up with these Titleist T300 which i didn't get fit for, but bought 2 degrees flat. That's where I needed to do more thinking. The T300 stock lie angle for a 7 iron is 63 degrees, the stock lie angle on those Mizunos is 61.5. Thats quite a bit of difference as a starting point.

 

I have a Mitchell bending machine, but scared to bend the T300 set any more than they currently are. 

[Cwebb]

30 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

 

Thanks. Thats what i was trying to get an answer to. I always hear on WRX and from fitters that only dynamic lie angle at impact is what matters, but i've felt that there can also be a wrong starting point as well, especially for folks that are outside of the bell curve for height/wrist to floor, etc. 

 

A bad fitting club at address, can promote a bad golf swing.  So it's not just about where the club returns at impact.  

 

In your case, an iron that is extremely upright at address, can promote "early extension" and handle raising.  Two things that most good players do not do.

 

If I was working with you, I'd fit you into the proper length and a good static lie  angle, which will allow you to work on a good golf swing.  Then evaluate if any adjustments need to be made to the lie angle later.

 

I'd rather have your lie angles that are just barely toe up at address vs anything that is extreme in the upright direction like you have now.  Simply because it promotes a much better golf swing.  No good instructor would want to see you using what you have now, regardless of what any dynamic lie test shows.

 

Here's an old thread from the instruction forum that would probably interest you...

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Cwebb

[Billfitz]

1 hour ago, Cwebb said:

You likely need shorter club lengths, in addition to flatter lie angles

Probably. Choking down, a more upright stance and placing the hands further from the body are additional methods of flattening out a too upright lie. One thing to try is to place the club so that the lie is flat, then adjust your stance and grip so that it stays flat. Let the club determine what you do, instead of letting what you do determine what the club does.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Billfitz

[Cwebb]

16 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

Probably. Choking down, a more upright stance and placing the hands further from the body are additional methods of flattening out a too upright lie. One thing to try is to place the club so that the lie is flat, then adjust your stance and grip so that it stays flat. Let the club determine what you do, instead of letting what you do determine what the club does.

 

That's the thing though, I wouldn't want the clubs to determine how he sets up to the ball.  He has an ideal address position and posture.  I'd want him in that, and then start with lengths and lie angles that promote that at address.   Work with them, then evaluate the lie angles dynamically at a later date

[Sparty4202]

2 hours ago, dlow206 said:

Ok, I understand that everyone says lie angle at address doesn't matter and only lie angle at impact matters. I get that.

 

However, when I setup with my irons, i hate how much toe up they look at address. To my eye, they are so toe up i don't even know if i am aiming them correctly. haven't done a dynamic lie angle test yet, but i am sure i have gotten used to the irons enough that i could manipulate the club enough at this point. however, on course i will hit an occasional giant pull hook with a mid or short iron and its like WTF was that. 

 

For reference, i am short 5'4-ish, short legs, average to slightly long arms (proportionately). My wrist to floor is about 30.5". 

 

I think you’re the perfect candidate for a fitting, you are not near what some would say is the average size golfer and the benefits of a fitting would help you establish a good baseline. It beats guessing at what would be best for you.

[dlow206]

18 minutes ago, Sparty4202 said:

I think you’re the perfect candidate for a fitting, you are not near what some would say is the average size golfer and the benefits of a fitting would help you establish a good baseline. It beats guessing at what would be best for you.

Yeah, actually have an appointment at Club Champion this week. I've seen this fitter before for a putter fitting, and I could tell he is a good fitter (vs. some other bad fittings i have had in the past)

[bnperrone]

2 hours ago, dlow206 said:

So this is where I didn't do enough critical thinking before buying stuff lol. 

 

What I mean by that is that I was fit a while back based on a static chart. -0.5", 2 degrees flat. At that time, I happened to buy a set of Mizuno JPX 919 hot metal, and Mizuno happens to be on the flatter end for stock specs out of the OEMs. As I have bought different iron sets since then, I have now ended up with these Titleist T300 which i didn't get fit for, but bought 2 degrees flat. That's where I needed to do more thinking. The T300 stock lie angle for a 7 iron is 63 degrees, the stock lie angle on those Mizunos is 61.5. Thats quite a bit of difference as a starting point.

 

I have a Mitchell bending machine, but scared to bend the T300 set any more than they currently are. 

So, you're 2 degrees flat and 1/2" short of Mizuno specs? That means you'd have to come down to 59.5* on the Titleist, so another 1.5* if I'm reading it right. PLUS, if the length is different you need to account for that at 1/2* for every 1/2". PLUS, and this is where I'm getting out of my experience zone, a different shaft could cause more or less toe drop, which affects the dynamic lie and would need to be accounted for. Really, dynamic fitting is the only thing that matters assuming your swing is repeatable. But, the good news is that it sounds like another 1.5* would get you to a pretty good point on the Titleist set. 

 

As far as being scared to bend, you can first ask Titleist if that lie angle result is within design tolerances. Then, you could have them bent professionally and then just use your machine to keep them in spec. I doubt you'd have to bend T300s very often, but I could be wrong. BTW, I'm jealous of you having a bending machine and an MOI auditor. Both are pieces I'd love to have!

[dlow206]

18 minutes ago, bnperrone said:

So, you're 2 degrees flat and 1/2" short of Mizuno specs? That means you'd have to come down to 59.5* on the Titleist, so another 1.5* if I'm reading it right. PLUS, if the length is different you need to account for that at 1/2* for every 1/2". PLUS, and this is where I'm getting out of my experience zone, a different shaft could cause more or less toe drop, which affects the dynamic lie and would need to be accounted for. Really, dynamic fitting is the only thing that matters assuming your swing is repeatable. But, the good news is that it sounds like another 1.5* would get you to a pretty good point on the Titleist set. 

 

As far as being scared to bend, you can first ask Titleist if that lie angle result is within design tolerances. Then, you could have them bent professionally and then just use your machine to keep them in spec. I doubt you'd have to bend T300s very often, but I could be wrong. BTW, I'm jealous of you having a bending machine and an MOI auditor. Both are pieces I'd love to have!

 

So the initial fitting where the 2 degrees flat and 1/2" short was not a good overall fitting but won't go into that story. Those numbers came from the Ping static chart (even though I was buying Mizunos), and the fitter did not talk about those numbers in context specifically about the Mizunos.

 

I can try to talk to Titleist, but I am guessing i will get a "corporate" response of anything more than 2 degrees in either direction runs the risk of breaking the hosels. 

[bnperrone]

1 minute ago, dlow206 said:

 

So the initial fitting where the 2 degrees flat and 1/2" short was not a good overall fitting but won't go into that story. Those numbers came from the Ping static chart (even though I was buying Mizunos), and the fitter did not talk about those numbers in context specifically about the Mizunos.

 

I can try to talk to Titleist, but I am guessing i will get a "corporate" response of anything more than 2 degrees in either direction runs the risk of breaking the hosels. 

So really you just need to start over. I saw elsewhere that you have a fitting with somebody you trust, so that should take care of it, and then it'll be their job to find products that can fit your specs. 

[dlow206]

1 hour ago, bnperrone said:

So really you just need to start over. I saw elsewhere that you have a fitting with somebody you trust, so that should take care of it, and then it'll be their job to find products that can fit your specs. 

 

Yeah makes sense. The fitter i am going to, when I did my putter fitting, not only has been the first fitter to validate that I was going in the right direction with my 31" putter, but also that i may need to go a tad shorter. All other fitters i have been to tend to think in the box or within what is "typical", meaning putters typically come in 33" to 35", maybe go 1" shorter to 32. 

[bnperrone]

18 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

 

Yeah makes sense. The fitter i am going to, when I did my putter fitting, not only has been the first fitter to validate that I was going in the right direction with my 31" putter, but also that i may need to go a tad shorter. All other fitters i have been to tend to think in the box or within what is "typical", meaning putters typically come in 33" to 35", maybe go 1" shorter to 32. 

Yeah, stick with that fitter. You said you're 5' 4" with short legs. I'm 6' and play a 35" putter and could easily sub in a 34" putter. It's insane for anybody to think that you and I would require the same setup. FWIW the US Kids Club putter that comes with that height range measures 32" and there's no reason to think your own preferences could vary an inch or two beyond that. That player height category is also 63" to 66" so it's going to accommodate players taller than you who are also still growing (like weeds at that point in their life). Kinds at that height are also usually all gangly with long arms and legs that they haven't grown into.

 

Sounds like you're on the right path. Best of luck to you!

[joostin]

So definitely do the ball marker test to see if dynamically you're getting vertical lines or not, on top of the upcoming fitting.  From your pic I measured 11° toe up using the bottom of the picture as 0°.  I want to share some pics showing how significantly different from address to impact the hand position can be.

 

Tiger - I didn't measure but you can see left to right the shaft angle and hand differences (hands vs grass mow lines):

 

Adam Scott - superimposed address and impact, measured 5° difference (from hosel to grip, toe droop will add even more):

 

Collin Morikawa - superimposed, measured 9° difference (toe droop will add even more):

 

Nelly Korda - superimposed, measured 5° difference (toe droop will add even more):

 

Most will be like them - hands a little higher and towards the ball at impact.  Collin might have his toe up close to you sometimes.

 

Here are my static numbers, fellow shorty, toe up angles on right, but all ball markers come out close to vertical dynamically (never did ball marker on driver though, but the lower the loft the less the lie effect on starting line):

 

I was surprised they were angled up that much; they look fine to me.  But I understand the look of more upright clubs not looking right....

Hope you find your happy place.  Maybe seeing vertical marks on the ball marker test will give reassurance that you're not far off.  Bending plus choking down may get you there upon testing and fitting.

[dlow206]

8 hours ago, joostin said:

So definitely do the ball marker test to see if dynamically you're getting vertical lines or not, on top of the upcoming fitting.  From your pic I measured 11° toe up using the bottom of the picture as 0°.  I want to share some pics showing how significantly different from address to impact the hand position can be.

 

Tiger - I didn't measure but you can see left to right the shaft angle and hand differences (hands vs grass mow lines):

 

Adam Scott - superimposed address and impact, measured 5° difference (from hosel to grip, toe droop will add even more):

 

Collin Morikawa - superimposed, measured 9° difference (toe droop will add even more):

 

Nelly Korda - superimposed, measured 5° difference (toe droop will add even more):

 

Most will be like them - hands a little higher and towards the ball at impact.  Collin might have his toe up close to you sometimes.

 

Here are my static numbers, fellow shorty, toe up angles on right, but all ball markers come out close to vertical dynamically (never did ball marker on driver though, but the lower the loft the less the lie effect on starting line):

 

I was surprised they were angled up that much; they look fine to me.  But I understand the look of more upright clubs not looking right....

Hope you find your happy place.  Maybe seeing vertical marks on the ball marker test will give reassurance that you're not far off.  Bending plus choking down may get you there upon testing and fitting.

 

That's awesome, thanks for posting this.

 

I think I raise the handle a fair amount because I have to. I choked down a decent amount in the video below, probably more than half an inch. Normally I do not choke down. 

 

 

[Cwebb]

1 hour ago, dlow206 said:

 

That's awesome, thanks for posting this.

 

I think I raise the handle a fair amount because I have to. I choked down a decent amount in the video below, probably more than half an inch. Normally I do not choke down. 

 

 

 

The club still looks a bit long for you.  Shorter lengths and flatter lies will allow you to improve your posture at address, with a little more bend from your waist vs the the flexion in the upper half of your spine that you have now.  This will help open up your full potential with your swing. 

 

I'd suggest getting a single club to do some testing with.  Make it at least a full inch shorter than 'standard' and 3-4* flat for the lie.  For example, a 7 iron that has a raw ungripped length of 35.75" with a 58* lie angle.

 

The only way to find out what it does for you, is to get something to work with.  Go ahead and experiment outside the normal parameters

[dlow206]

6 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

The club still looks a bit long for you.  Shorter lengths and flatter lies will allow you to improve your posture at address, with a little more bend from your waist vs the the flexion in the upper half of your spine that you have now.  This will help open up your full potential with your swing. 

 

I'd suggest getting a single club to do some testing with.  Make it at least a full inch shorter than 'standard' and 3-4* flat for the lie.  For example, a 7 iron that has a raw ungripped length of 35.75" with a 58* lie angle.

 

The only way to find out what it does for you, is to get something to work with.  Go ahead and experiment outside the normal parameters

 

Thanks. I have always felt uncomfortable standing over the ball with any standard length mens clubs or minus 0.5" clubs. i feel like the shaft looks too horizontal at address or thats what i perceive. 

[Stuart_G]

On 1/18/2022 at 11:02 AM, dlow206 said:

 

 

Sorry. the question is around is there a point where the lie angle is too upright at address that it will cause you to have to start to manipulate the club as a result

 

Everyone has to manipulate the club at address with irons.   The have no stable naturally soled position so it always leaves it completely up to the player to properly orient the club.   Now yes, some factors make it easier/harder for certain individuals - and the lie angle at address certainly might be one of those things.   But even if that's the case, what do you propose the solution might be?  The lie angles should be set based on impact not address.  So you certainly shouldn't bend the clubs any more if the lie angle is correct at impact.   That means the realistic alternatives are predominantly:

1) get better (or just more comfortable) at pointing the face at your current address position - one possibility is relying more on the grip orientation in the hands than looking at the face at address.

2) change the address position - which for many would bring with it all kinds of other potential problems - but if you really have a funky address position it may make sense in the long run.

 

[Billfitz]

23 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

That's the thing though, I wouldn't want the clubs to determine how he sets up to the ball.  He has an ideal address position and posture.

Ideal being what? Like Tiger? Like Hogan? Like DJ? Like Furyk? Like Bryson? One can say that they all have an ideal address position for them, yet they're all different. Furyk and DeChambeau don't even look like they're playing the same game. Making adjustments to one's gear to best suit them is important, but just as important is making adjustments to one's swing, including the grip and stance. The only way to find out what works best is via trial and error. None of those guys mentioned above started off with the same swing they ended up with.

[Cwebb]

28 minutes ago, Billfitz said:

Ideal being what? Like Tiger? Like Hogan? Like DJ? Like Furyk? Like Bryson? One can say that they all have an ideal address position for them, yet they're all different. Furyk and DeChambeau don't even look like they're playing the same game. Making adjustments to one's gear to best suit them is important, but just as important is making adjustments to one's swing, including the grip and stance. The only way to find out what works best is via trial and error. None of those guys mentioned above started off with the same swing they ended up with.

 

"Ideal" being where he and/or his instructor want him to be.  Not letting a club that clearly doesn't fit, dictate a posture and setup...and swing motion

[bladehunter]

Op.  I’d get your pitching wedge and choke down until it feels too short. Literally.  Then grip back up  1/4 at a time till it’s comfort cut it there.  Then build up from that in 3/8 increments adjusting lie angle for each iron individually using a sharpie line on the ball to show impact situation.    
 

this is how I finally fit myself for irons.  I’m opposite, 6ft3 and constantly handed standard length wedges. I couldn’t get down to hit them.  Not comfortably.  Fitting boards are just a guide.  And really don’t help us odd balls much.  I’m plus 3/4 inch in wedges. But end up being much less over length in long irons because of the short step in between each iron . This solved the secondary issue of a 3-5 iron that felt like a 3 wood.  Why ? Because they were too long.  

Edited January 19, 2022 by bladehunter

[Shades234]

My address lie angle would be 2 degrees flat just based on measurements. However, during my swing I get a little more upright, so my clubs are all actually bent only 1 degree flat. 

 

I struggled with alignment for a bit. Had the club face closed a touch. Started setting the club flat to align it before fully stepping into my stance and letting it rest naturally.

[sm_watts]

OP, I fit into your fitting range - 5'5" on a good day, but very short arms relative to my height and tiny hands.  Static Ping measurements put me at -.5" length and 1 degree flat.  Dynamic fitting with Mizuno irons put me at 1/2" over and 2 degrees up...

 

I've settled on Ping standard lie (toe up at address) and .5" long.  I think the club length is mostly due to some knee injuries/surgeries that keep me from really keeping a good posture on my swing.  When you don't have a lot of cartilage left in either knee, finding the least painful swing is sometimes more important than maintaining the best posture.

[Valtiel]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:14 AM, dlow206 said:

 

Thanks. Thats what i was trying to get an answer to. I always hear on WRX and from fitters that only dynamic lie angle at impact is what matters, but i've felt that there can also be a wrong starting point as well, especially for folks that are outside of the bell curve for height/wrist to floor, etc. 

 

On 1/18/2022 at 9:32 AM, Cwebb said:

 

A bad fitting club at address, can promote a bad golf swing.  So it's not just about where the club returns at impact. 

 

 

On 1/18/2022 at 10:15 AM, Cwebb said:

 

That's the thing though, I wouldn't want the clubs to determine how he sets up to the ball. 

This is exactly what I came to touch on. Yes impact lie angle is what matters, but ONLY in so much as you're doing the "correct" things to get there mechanically. If the club sits heinously upright at address and you raise the handle a bunch to achieve a more neutral angle at impact when you do NOT have a good fit despite that "good" angle. 

I agree with the comments about likely needing a flatter lie angle and addressing this in a proper fitting with someone you trust.   

[Cwebb]

38 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

 

This is exactly what I came to touch on. Yes impact lie angle is what matters, but ONLY in so much as you're doing the "correct" things to get there mechanically. If the club sits heinously upright at address and you raise the handle a bunch to achieve a more neutral angle at impact when you do NOT have a good fit despite that "good" angle. 

I agree with the comments about likely needing a flatter lie angle and addressing this in a proper fitting with someone you trust.   

 

Yup.  Go to any high rated swing instructor with irons/wedges that look like the what he posted in this thread and they're going to tell you, "we can't work with that, gotta flatten them out".