Have driver prices gone insane?

[amace04]

4 hours ago, mitchdoc said:

 

 

If you look at prices on ping Callaway taylormade cobra and Titleist, they were 25% cheaper 5 years ago compared to now.

 

 

Taylormade M1 reissue cost $500 in 2017.  That's $568 today adjusted for inflation.  Stealth costs $579.  So you're complaining that over 5 years driver prices went up 10 bucks?

Callaway GBB Epic cost the exact same

Titleist 917D2?  Exact same price.

 

Even if you ignore inflation, $500 is 13.6% cheaper than $579.

 

I get that making up stories makes for attention-grabbing posts, but you're wrong.

Edited January 19, 2022 by amace04

[RoyalMustang]

20 hours ago, MattM97 said:

Does no one factor in inflation? @benclab mentioned the Big Bertha and 975D were $500 in 1998 would be $855 today. 

 

The other thing is who's upgrading drivers every year? I get wanting the newest thing but don't expect improvements. Use the new Rogue ST and the previous Rogue as example, if you got the original Rogue new in 2018 and are planning on upgrading to the Rogue ST in 2022 that obviously a 4 year gap and you'll probably see improvements between those two. 

 

yeah-no kidding.

 

I just ordered a bunch of used (returnable) clubs from an online vendor.  SIM2/Max/TS3/TSi3/Sim/ST-Z/LST425

 

I have a TS3 (Diamana BF TX 60) and ST200 (Atmos Black 6X and CK Pro Orange 7X)

 

Out of everything I ordered and tried over 2 weeks, my favorites were still the ones I own; all technically last year's models.  The only one that matched it was a used TS3 Blue Raw 65X. 

 

Granted, I am pretty shaft sensitive, but on the range, I didn't like any of these as well as my current drivers.  I wasn't as accurate nor as smooth.  Even when I swapped in my own shaft on the SIM 2, it was still flying a bit high and spinnny right against my TS3.  There is really no measurable performance improvement yearly on drivers; maybe a robot can detect a gain of 3 yards, but try finding that in real life.  The proof is the fact that there are always a zillion current model drivers here for sale.  For whatever reason, they just aren't better than what people are playing.  Sure, I could get "used" to it, but a driver swing is a driver swing.  Making the same swing should result in immediate improvement if claims are true.  

 

It reminds me of cycling and wind tunnel testing.  "This new frame reduces drag by XXX % over last year's model; 76 seconds saved over a 20k time trial at an average speed of 28mph".  If this were true, we would all be going like 6mph faster due to aerodynamics by now.  The data is cherry picked heavily and for the most part, not improving performance in a real-world way over the competition or over recent releases

[amace04]

5 hours ago, Esox said:

In 1994 My Wilson Whale Titanium driver was $299.00, that's equivalent to about $640.00 today.

In 1993 my Yonex ADX Tour irons (3-10, PW, SW) were $1100--1200. 

Last year my T300's (4-PW, 43 & 48*) were $900.00

 

Every wood in my bag rotation (Ping G400's and TM M6's) were purchased used. I got the TM 1,3,5,7,9 separately, but paid $800 for them all....

I exclusively buy used.  I just bought a SIM2 Ti 5w for $200CAD.  They still sell new for over $500.  There are steals to be had, just gotta look for them.  My entire bag has been replaced over the last year and a couple months with exclusively the past season's clubs, and I paid under $1800 for everything, just bought it all separately looking for deals.  

[amace04]

5 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

yeah-no kidding.

 

I just ordered a bunch of used (returnable) clubs from an online vendor.  SIM2/Max/TS3/TSi3/Sim/ST-Z/LST425

 

I have a TS3 (Diamana BF TX 60) and ST200 (Atmos Black 6X and CK Pro Orange 7X)

 

Out of everything I ordered and tried over 2 weeks, my favorites were still the ones I own; all technically last year's models.  The only one that matched it was a used TS3 Blue Raw 65X. 

 

Granted, I am pretty shaft sensitive, but on the range, I didn't like any of these as well as my current drivers.  I wasn't as accurate nor as smooth.  Even when I swapped in my own shaft on the SIM 2, it was still flying a bit high and spinnny right against my TS3.  There is really no measurable performance improvement yearly on drivers; maybe a robot can detect a gain of 3 yards, but try finding that in real life.  The proof is the fact that there are always a zillion current model drivers here for sale.  For whatever reason, they just aren't better than what people are playing.  Sure, I could get "used" to it, but a driver swing is a driver swing.  Making the same swing should result in immediate improvement if claims are true.  

 

It reminds me of cycling and wind tunnel testing.  "This new frame reduces drag by XXX % over last year's model; 76 seconds saved over a 20k time trial at an average speed of 28mph".  If this were true, we would all be going like 6mph faster due to aerodynamics by now.  The data is cherry picked heavily and for the most part, not improving performance in a real-world way over the competition or over recent releases

 

 

Plus, most drivers are slightly different with weight distribution.  What works for some might not work for you.  Sometimes you find a club that just works great, and even though the new one might be "better" and people actually see a difference, you don't.  That doesn't mean what you've got is better, or the new stuff sucks, but it's not better for you.

 

If money were no issue, I'd certainly go try out all the new equipment every year, but I'd imagine I wouldn't be buying new stuff every year if what's in my bag is still the best for me.

[Ri_Redneck]

Remember the R1 with the Oban Kyoshi White at $900+? You could probably find one online now for $150 or less.

 

BT

[amace04]

1 minute ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Remember the R1 with the Oban Kyoshi White at $900+? You could probably find one online now for $150 or less.

 

BT

Oban is still pricey, but tbh I'm still gaming that shaft in my Sim2

[GooseHook]

Golf is expensive, if you set aside hoarding like the WRX population most people are only going to be buying a club or two per year at most. The "shiny and new factor" is worse in this industry than cars. 

 

I recall paying $1k+ for Mizuno MP irons in 2011, and drivers have always been expensive. Golf ball prices are surprisingly stable all things considered and we now have legitimate tour-caliber balls at lower DTC pricepoints. 

 

IMO the most costly part about golf these days is green fees combined with demand for tee times. Playing a round requires more planning and time investment than ever before. 

[GooseHook]

Golf is expensive, if you set aside hoarding like the WRX population most people are only going to be buying a club or two per year at most. The "shiny and new factor" is worse in this industry than cars. 

 

I recall paying $1k+ for Mizuno MP irons in 2011, and drivers have always been expensive. Golf ball prices are surprisingly stable all things considered and we now have legitimate tour-caliber balls at lower DTC pricepoints. 

 

IMO the most costly part about golf these days is green fees combined with demand for tee times. Playing a round requires more planning and time investment than ever before. 

 

 

Edit: Here's an old article from the R9 Superdeep launch. Look at that retail price!

https://www.intothegrain.com/taylormade-introduces-r9-superdeep-tp-driver/

 

[mitchdoc]

1 hour ago, amace04 said:

 

Taylormade M1 reissue cost $500 in 2017.  That's $568 today adjusted for inflation.  Stealth costs $579.  So you're complaining that over 5 years driver prices went up 10 bucks?

Callaway GBB Epic cost the exact same

Titleist 917D2?  Exact same price.

 

Even if you ignore inflation, $500 is 13.6% cheaper than $579.

 

I get that making up stories makes for attention-grabbing posts, but you're wrong.

Well here in Canada maybe the companies have played with exchange rate because the new stealth is 779$ and o promise you the m1 when it was out was not 600$ it was maybe 529 so 250$ less

[mitchdoc]

1 hour ago, Ri_Redneck said:

Remember the R1 with the Oban Kyoshi White at $900+? You could probably find one online now for $150 or less.

 

BT

I bought an R1 new for 350$ cdn or like 280$ the same year it came out

[amace04]

2 minutes ago, mitchdoc said:

Well here in Canada maybe the companies have played with exchange rate because the new stealth is 779$ and o promise you the m1 when it was out was not 600$ it was maybe 529 so 250$ less

Again, you're simply making things up.  Canadian prices are more difficult to compare as you need to factor both inflation and exchange rate changes over the year.  

 

As TaylorMade is a US company, and the US is the single largest golf market in the world, comparing in any currency but USD is simply foolish.

 

But, a simple fact for you: it cost $649.99CAD at launch.  That's still only 16.5% less not factoring inflation or exchange.    

 

 

[cgasucks]

13 hours ago, grm24 said:

When the TM R510TP was released to retail in late 2002/early 2003 they were selling for between $600-$700 if you were able to get one. That's between $900-$1,000 today. 

 

 

This article is a good read. It's from 1996. In many ways the price of some of todays drivers are simply getting back to a price point from the past.

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1996/02/12/titanium-drivers-made-of-this-space-age-metal-may-be-more-accurate-and-longer-theyre-surely-costlier

 

 

Absolutely true.  I still remember when I started golfing in 2000, the 975D was probably the most used driver on tour and in the early 2001 people were selling a not yet released 975J for easily over $1k on Ebay.

[t4t3r]

The biggest difference I see is that the year-to-year "improvements" just aren't worth the premium price. There are some good stats here so far to illustrate how drivers aren't any more expensive than they used to be, but the performance "floor" is much higher than it used to be.  Every company makes a good driver now that is mostly on-par with everything else, and stuff from 2-3 years ago performs just as well for a fraction of the new price. 

[nvr3putt]

There are many parallels between golf clubs and cars. Both are depreciating assets and the prices of both have skyrocketed due to Covid. 

I wonder if OEMs have ever tried a lease or subscription program with clubs? 

[Abh159]

A brand new iPhone was $199 in 2008. Now they are $699. That's what happens over time... Prices on things go up.

 

For goodness sake your grandfather used to be able to buy a coke and a candy bar for a nickel!!!!!

[Yoshifan151]

1 minute ago, Abh159 said:

A brand new iPhone was $199 in 2008. Now they are $699. That's what happens over time... Prices on things go up.

 

For goodness sake your grandfather used to be able to buy a coke and a candy bar for a nickel!!!!!

The original iPhone was not $200, it was $500 for 4GB or $600 for 8GB. 

[Abh159]

2 minutes ago, Yoshifan151 said:

The original iPhone was not $200, it was $500 for 4GB or $600 for 8GB. 

 

Correct. I guess it's a good thing I didn't say the "original iPhone" or else I would have been wrong 😉.

 

The iPhone 3g came out in 2008. It was $199 for the 8GB version.

[GooseHook]

Just now, Abh159 said:

 

Correct. I guess it's a good thing I didn't say the "original iPhone" or else I would have been wrong 😉.

 

The iPhone 3g came out in 2008. It was $199 for the 8GB version.

At that time, even the 3G was a product that was relatively new and competing for market space against the established phones. It was also heavily subsidized and you could only get one with AT&T service in the US. 
 

 

[Krt22]

No need to worry, I read an article where they said inflation was a good thing

[amace04]

11 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Correct. I guess it's a good thing I didn't say the "original iPhone" or else I would have been wrong 😉.

 

The iPhone 3g came out in 2008. It was $199 for the 8GB version.

No it was not.  It may have been $199 on a contract, but no iPhone was ever $199 outright.

But the point remains, the iPhone 4 (Best on the market at the time) cost about $700CAD.  the iPhone 13 Pro Max costs over $2000

[Krt22]

17 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Correct. I guess it's a good thing I didn't say the "original iPhone" or else I would have been wrong 😉.

 

The iPhone 3g came out in 2008. It was $199 for the 8GB version.

No it was not, that was the carrier subsidized cost which required a contract

[amace04]

37 minutes ago, t4t3r said:

The biggest difference I see is that the year-to-year "improvements" just aren't worth the premium price. There are some good stats here so far to illustrate how drivers aren't any more expensive than they used to be, but the performance "floor" is much higher than it used to be.  Every company makes a good driver now that is mostly on-par with everything else, and stuff from 2-3 years ago performs just as well for a fraction of the new price. 

By that logic they never have been.

 

5 years ago the M1 was re-released in 2017.  The year before, the M1 came out with a different colour scheme and slightly different sound.  Many claim the OG is better.  Zero improvement year over year.

 

M1 vs. R11s?  Again a 5 year difference.  Off the centre of the face, there were minimal improvements.  Where they're better is for your inconsistent striker who will hit them low, hit them off the toe, etc.  

That same comparison exists today for M1 vs Stealth.  Each were released within 5 years of each other.  Each have minimal improvements on perfect strikes, but notable improvements on inconsistent striking.  

 

Essentially any driver made since 2008 when the COR restrictions came into effect should be equally as hot on centred strikes.  The changes come from spin characteristics and forgiveness on off-centred strikes.  Even reports of Stealth vs SIM or SIM2 note that Stealth seems more forgiving.  

 

Be wary of watching pro reviews.  They often hit off the centre almost every time, and eliminate the bad strikes.   By those rules, there's very little difference over the past 15 years.

Edited January 19, 2022 by amace04

[t4t3r]

16 minutes ago, amace04 said:

By that logic they never have been.

 

5 years ago the M1 was re-released in 2017.  The year before, the M1 came out with a different colour scheme and slightly different sound.  Many claim the OG is better.  Zero improvement year over year.

 

M1 vs. R11s?  Again a 5 year difference.  Off the centre of the face, there were minimal improvements.  Where they're better is for your inconsistent striker who will hit them low, hit them off the toe, etc.  

That same comparison exists today for M1 vs Stealth.  Each were released within 5 years of each other.  Each have minimal improvements on perfect strikes, but notable improvements on inconsistent striking.  

 

Essentially any driver made since 2008 when the COR restrictions came into effect should be equally as hot on centred strikes.  The changes come from spin characteristics and forgiveness on off-centred strikes.  Even reports of Stealth vs SIM or SIM2 note that Stealth seems more forgiving.  

 

Be wary of watching pro reviews.  They often hit off the centre almost every time, and eliminate the bad strikes.   By those rules, there's very little difference over the past 15 years.

 

I'm not sure why you're quoting my post other than you seem to like to argue with everyone. It seemed like we are saying mostly the same thing? If you are trying to say there are no differences going back 5+ years then ok? I don't agree with that but that is fine. Ball technology has changed a lot which is a huge factor as well.

 

Also, pros don't hit the center of the clubface almost every time, especially with a driver. If that was the case they wouldn't care about forgiveness which is completely false. There are articles where Dustin Johnson was asked about this and he said he might hit one or two flushed driver shots per round. They don't miss as much as the rest of us but they also aren't machines.

Edited January 19, 2022 by t4t3r

[RoyalMustang]

4 hours ago, amace04 said:

 

 

Plus, most drivers are slightly different with weight distribution.  What works for some might not work for you.  Sometimes you find a club that just works great, and even though the new one might be "better" and people actually see a difference, you don't.  That doesn't mean what you've got is better, or the new stuff sucks, but it's not better for you.

 

If money were no issue, I'd certainly go try out all the new equipment every year, but I'd imagine I wouldn't be buying new stuff every year if what's in my bag is still the best for me.

 

yeah, there is also the question of what your time is worth in finding the perfect blend of flex shaft/head performance/swing weight.  

 

One could go down a rabbit hole and spend many, many hours searching for something better than a perfectly good setup, rather than just use that time to work on the weakness of their game.  

 

Even time I spent in ordering, unpacking, trying (at the range), re-trying, narrowing down for a 3rd session, deciding nothing was better and sending back is significant.  Just imagine if I had gone to multiple fittings and came away empty-handed?  It is fun, but is it a good use of resources for a golfer with less time to practice and play than one would like?  

 

If I just walked into a store, hit balls for 30 minutes, and bought something, I would be 95% guaranteed to walk out with something worse than I already have in my bag.  

[drumdude96]

It's not so much driver prices, it's the other clubs to fill out the bag that have skyrocketed.  Irons, fairways, hybrids, and wedges have had a very steep increase over the last several years.  Driver prices seem to have stayed pretty stable in comparison.

[mitchdoc]

21 hours ago, amace04 said:

Again, you're simply making things up.  Canadian prices are more difficult to compare as you need to factor both inflation and exchange rate changes over the year.  

 

As TaylorMade is a US company, and the US is the single largest golf market in the world, comparing in any currency but USD is simply foolish.

 

But, a simple fact for you: it cost $649.99CAD at launch.  That's still only 16.5% less not factoring inflation or exchange.    

 

 

You forget this is Taylor made. Perhaps that was the launch price for all of 12 minutes but I can assure you that within four months of release the price was between 50 and $100 lower 

[GooseHook]

18 hours ago, drumdude96 said:

It's not so much driver prices, it's the other clubs to fill out the bag that have skyrocketed.  Irons, fairways, hybrids, and wedges have had a very steep increase over the last several years.  Driver prices seem to have stayed pretty stable in comparison.

 

Wedges have gone up maybe 30-40 bucks per club in recent years. Somewhat steep but maybe not as extreme as fairway woods? In 2014 the highest end TM fairway was the SLDR TP and that was $350 with a nice choice of higher end shafts. So I guess that's a pretty big increase if compared to the Stealth Plus now. Go back a little further and TEE was charging quite a hefty price for their models 10 years ago. 

 

Seeing most of the examples here I think the WRX population has some recency bias because we buy new clubs every year. 

[Ri_Redneck]

23 hours ago, mitchdoc said:

I bought an R1 new for 350$ cdn or like 280$ the same year it came out

Yes, but the MSRP was 900 when it came out. It quickly dropped when they found out no one was going to pay that for it.

 

BT

[dokex]

If I needed a new driver, it would be the Sub70 Pro driver. $299.00, with decent no upcharge shafts.

[dokex]

1 minute ago, dokex said:

If I needed a new driver, it would be the Sub70 Pro driver. $299.00, with decent no upcharge shafts.

Wait a minute, I see that Sub70 jacked the price to $329.00. Still a good price, though.