Increase in membership, how to handle more play?

[gonewild]

Long story short, I retired from the corporate world back in June to oversee our house build. A few months ago I went to work part-time at a local semi-private course and I've learned a lot about course operations there, but now I have the chance to be the shop manager at a private course. I have my second interview this coming week and the pro asked me to come prepared to discuss how to handle more play with an increase in members (+/- 100) last year.

 

My thought immediately went to pace of play and tee time spacing. During our initial interview he mentioned the first couple of holes are relatively easy, but then the course toughens and that is usually where they see back-ups. I fired up an Excel spreadsheet and started doing analysis on 8-12 min tee times (they use 8 minutes). At this point I'm still compiling the data, but I thought why not turn here and see if I should be looking at something other than pace?

 

Thanks

Edited January 22, 2022 by gonewild

[mizuno player]

Can you reverse nines? 

 

Unfortunately sometimes there isn't anything you can do if the holes are that difficult except less tee times and further spacing. 

[jvincent]

Is there anything unusual about the tougher holes (OB, long grass that encourages long searches for balls, etc).

 

If so, consider re-marking those areas as red penalty areas to allow drops without stroke and distance.

 

Assuming there aren't huge distances between greens/tees anything over 10 min tee time spacing is probably overkill assuming the course establishes some concrete pace of play guidelines and actually tracks and reports them.

[randytrevor]

Pace of play is always a concern, but there is only so much adjusting the spacing can do as there is always point where you are missing out on booking extra groups at the expense of pace. 

 

I would also consider how the extra members will effect Tee time availability. If members were previously able to book whenever with ease, then with the uptick in membership its no longer an option. I know Id be pretty upset to pay the same amount or more with less availability. Might be worth considering a tiered booking option where longer standing members either have specific reserved times or are able book prior to newer members, and public.

[Abh159]

Asking you to discuss how to handle more play is an extremely open-ended question. Are you supposed to specifically discuss pace of play issues? Are members complaining b/c they can't get tee times due to the increase in membership/play? So many variables here...

 

One thing I wouldn't do in the interview is suggest a solution that is going to cost money or cause the club to potentially lose revenue. For example, if pace of play is the major issue then creating more space between tee times could help, but that also leads to less rounds per day and a possible decrease in cart fee revenue if they charge per round.

 

You should definitely have something prepared, but I think you'll need more info regarding what is causing the issue before you could really give a logical solution.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Abh159

[gonewild]

7 minutes ago, mizuno player said:

Can you reverse nines? 

 

Unfortunately sometimes there isn't anything you can do if the holes are that difficult except less tee times and further spacing. 

 

He did mention during peak season the book off 1 and 10, so I don't think reversing is going to help.

 

7 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Is there anything unusual about the tougher holes (OB, long grass that encourages long searches for balls, etc).

 

If so, consider re-marking those areas as red penalty areas to allow drops without stroke and distance.

 

Assuming there aren't huge distances between greens/tees anything over 10 min tee time spacing is probably overkill assuming the course establishes some concrete pace of play guidelines and actually tracks and reports them.

 

The first couple of holes are downhill, then start back up. I've not played it, so no first-hand experience. From what I been told, the course is fairly open so I think the back-ups just come from lengthier holes and being uphill.

 

6 minutes ago, randytrevor said:

Pace of play is always a concern, but there is only so much adjusting the spacing can do as there is always point where you are missing out on booking extra groups at the expense of pace. 

 

I would also consider how the extra members will effect Tee time availability. If members were previously able to book whenever with ease, then with the uptick in membership its no longer an option. I know Id be pretty upset to pay the same amount or more with less availability. Might be worth considering a tiered booking option where longer standing members either have specific reserved times or are able book prior to newer members, and public.

 

I came from a club in the Charlottle area and on the weekends I could get a tee time, but it never happened before 2pm so I get what you are saying. I asked about that during my initial interview, and he said the club is predominantly retirees so he said weekends aren't totally booked, but now that they have added 100 members, things could change. I'm not familiar with tiered booking, I'll do some research into that option.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

Asking you to discuss how to handle more play is an extremely open-ended question. Are you supposed to specifically discuss pace of play issues? Are members complaining b/c they can't get tee times due to the increase in membership/play? So many variables here...

 

One thing I wouldn't do in the interview is suggest a solution that is going to cost money or cause the club to potentially lose revenue. For example, if pace of play is the major issue then creating more space between tee times could help, but that also leads to less rounds per day and a possible decrease in cart fee revenue if they charge per round.

 

You should definitely have something prepared, but I think you'll need more info regarding what is causing the issue before you could really give a logical solution.

 

Yes, it is an open-ended question, especially since I know nothing about their current operations. I actually like that though, he may not be actually looking for a solution, but how resourceful I can be. And absolutely, nothing suggested will cost the club money.

 

Thanks so far.

[Petethreeput]

It's private, so in my opinion, there should be no tiered membership accessibility to tee times.

 

Our small club saw an uptick in membership as well, and now have a healthy waiting list.  A couple of things our GM did, and he is excellent @deadsolid...shank is the club bought the app so members can make their tee times on line and see availability.  Also, over the past 50 years there are many set games that require multiple tee times because they may have 12-20 guys, and the members have become accustomed to playing at noon.. or whatever.  Now each individual has to make their own tee time to preclude those individuals from getting 4 tee times "just in case" and having 8 show up.  Whether it works or not I am not sure, but I do know if you are a habitual tee time canceller you receive the do better letter before you receive the no more tee times for you letter.  It freed up the shop to do shop things, and it also enabled players to see what was available by booking.  We can make tee times a week in advance and it opens at 8AM.

 

We also extended the tee slots from 9-11 minutes to help with pace of play.  2020 saw record rounds played, 2021 saw that record broken, so by putting these limitations on the times, I believe they opened up the course for more play.

[Abh159]

7 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

It's private, so in my opinion, there should be no tiered membership accessibility to tee times.

 

I do know if you are a habitual tee time canceller you receive the do better letter before you receive the no more tee times for you letter. 

 

Agree with the no tiered accessibility for full-members. All you'll do with that is drive away newer members which isn't something I would assume the club wants to do.

 

My club has a similar policy for slow players/groups.

 

Strike 1 - sort of an informal warning from the Pro or Asst. Pro telling them to speed it up next time
Strike 2 - They actually get a written warning letter (email) from the club
Strike 3 - They are suspended from making tee times during the busy times (basically anything before noon during the week and before 2 pm on weekends) for 3 months

 

Granted there is some leeway here to make a logical decision. Like if the group takes 6 hours to play but no one else is on the course then who cares. The warnings or suspension typically only come up if there is a group that is a frequent offender which we don't have many of. Probably because of this system

[gonewild]

14 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

It's private, so in my opinion, there should be no tiered membership accessibility to tee times.

 

Our small club saw an uptick in membership as well, and now have a healthy waiting list.  A couple of things our GM did, and he is excellent @deadsolid...shank is the club bought the app so members can make their tee times on line and see availability.  Also, over the past 50 years there are many set games that require multiple tee times because they may have 12-20 guys, and the members have become accustomed to playing at noon.. or whatever.  Now each individual has to make their own tee time to preclude those individuals from getting 4 tee times "just in case" and having 8 show up.  Whether it works or not I am not sure, but I do know if you are a habitual tee time canceller you receive the do better letter before you receive the no more tee times for you letter.  It freed up the shop to do shop things, and it also enabled players to see what was available by booking.  We can make tee times a week in advance and it opens at 8AM.

 

We also extended the tee slots from 9-11 minutes to help with pace of play.  2020 saw record rounds played, 2021 saw that record broken, so by putting these limitations on the times, I believe they opened up the course for more play.

 

That's where this club is, they have a lengthy waiting list. You made some good points, the club I'm at now has a system setup where the members who want to play in one of the groups must register 72 hrs. in advance through a secondary system, then the shop pulls the names and adds each name to the tee sheet. If there aren't enough players for the tee times we have reserved, we open them up to other members or outside play.

[Petethreeput]

1 hour ago, gonewild said:

 

That's where this club is, they have a lengthy waiting list. You made some good points, the club I'm at now has a system setup where the members who want to play in one of the groups must register 72 hrs. in advance through a secondary system, then the shop pulls the names and adds each name to the tee sheet. If there aren't enough players for the tee times we have reserved, we open them up to other members or outside play.

Yes, we have that as well for those folks who just book tee times.  Like I play in a couple multi tee time games each week.  We don't have to put in the names because they change each week and the pro shop knows they will be full, but for those unknown groups a person can make the tee time.  One time last year there was a tee time in my name for the group game.  A guy saw I was alone and signed up to play with me.  It was a little awkward when he asked me if I had found other folks to join us, and we had 15 people to fill the three tee times.  I didn't realize I had to list TBD in all the slots to prevent that from happening.  I know now.

[caniac6]

I think I would be concerned that the head pro would want your input, and hadn’t figured it out for himself. I think I would think about staying at the semi private.

Edited January 21, 2022 by caniac6

[gonewild]

3 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I think I would be concerned that the head pro would want your input, and hadn’t figured it out for himself.

 

How from what I've posted did you determine that? When I was hiring, I didn't ask what someone's favorite color was, I asked situational questions and how they would handle it, I don't see this as any different.

[caniac6]

4 minutes ago, gonewild said:

 

How from what I've posted did you determine that? When I was hiring, I didn't ask what someone's favorite color was, I asked situational questions and how they would handle it, I don't see this as any different.

I would think an experienced pro should be able to figure that out. I would have serious doubts a guy with several months of experience would have the solution. I have a turf degree, and am now retired. I would never ask a new worker their ideas on anything that could affect operations. 

[RoyalMustang]

15 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I think I would be concerned that the head pro would want your input, and hadn’t figured it out for himself. I think I would think about staying at the semi private.

 

This sounds like a consulting or strategy interview.  All of our interviews in management consulting involve a hypothetical business or ops problem; some data, and then asks the candidate to build out a logical hypothesis structure to investigate and eventually make a recommendation.  

 

This is how you separate the wheat from the chaff in the interview process.  How well does someone think on their feet?  How structured is their thinking?  How logical is their hypothesis testing process? Do they go down rabbit holes or do they keep the big picture in perspective?  Do they bring in personal biases that color their thinking?  How well do they listen?   

 

In this case, I would want the overall goal to keep in mind: what is our objective? it is to maximize throughput on the course?  (basically a cycle time and process changeover problem).  Is it to obtain maximum membership happiness?  (which can be measured, but the ideal would be few members and low fees, so you need a weighted matrix to come up with a better measure).   Is it about maximizing economic benefit?  (which would be to sell as many memberships as possible at the highest possible price-a marketing study based on price and quantity sold, as one would expect as price increases, expectations for a more exclusive experience would increase.  It may be better to have 500 hundred members at $10k/year than 1000 members who are only willing to pay $4k/year).  Not including ancillary sales of course (carts/food/bev).  

 

Lots of stuff to consider, but this type of interview question definitely shows the interviewer that the interviewee is sharp and thinking about issues from an ownership perspective.    

Best of luck on your interview!  Let us know how it goes

[Abh159]

36 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I think I would be concerned that the head pro would want your input, and hadn’t figured it out for himself. I think I would think about staying at the semi private.

 

We (myself and my company) frequently ask people to prepare a solution or plan for a certain scenario for an interview. Especially if it is a position that will involve strategy and/or management.

 

It's not that we have a bunch of problems that need solving, instead we are wanting to see what sort of strategy they come up with, how they would fictionally implement it, and what their expected outcome would be.

[Golfnuck]

4 hours ago, gonewild said:

Long story short, I retired from the corporate world back in June to oversee our house build. A few months ago I went to work part-time at a local semi-private course and I've learned a lot about course operations there, but now I have the chance to be the shop manager at a private course. I have my second interview this coming week and the pro asked me to come prepared to discuss how to handle more play with an increase in members (+/- 100) last year.

 

My thought immediately went to pace of play and tee time spacing. During our initial interview he mentioned the first couple of holes are relatively easy, but then the course toughens and that is usually where they see back-ups. I fired up an Excel spreadsheet and started doing analysis on 8-12 min tee times (they use 😎. At this point I'm still compiling the data, but I thought why not turn here and see if I should be looking at something other than pace?

 

Thanks

 

Private club so you need to keep this at the top of mind when thinking about any possible solutions.

 

What may work at a public or semi-private club may not work at a private club.

 

My club as well as many other privates clubs are struggling with access to the tee issues.

 

Our golf committee has been working on this issue for over 1 year and frankly there are no easy answers.

 

Very interested to hear of your solutions.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Golfnuck

[caniac6]

The only way to get more people on the course is to reduce the time between tee times. This will hurt pace of play, but it will increase volume. I don’t know how the course operates, but many privates are closed Mondays, and that reduces the available tee times. I worked at some semi privates, and we were open seven days, and, from a maintenance standpoint, it never prevented us from getting things done. The only time we closed was for aerification. If you have several holes that slow play, there is very little that can be done. Hopefully, play will pick up after those holes. I think without playing the course, it would be very difficult to make suggestions on how to get more players on the course.

[Golferpaul]

Pace of play is easy to control.  You just have to want to do it and many courses don't want to make the effort. 

I've played many courses that actively manage pace of play.  Some of the things they do include.

 

1. Communicate the pace of play rules.
2. Monitor every group coming off #9 and warn them if they are behind pace.  Cherry Hills does this.
3. Put a "list of shame" in the locker room so everybody can see who was behind pace at the turn.  Cherry Hills does this.
4. Put a clock on every third hole showing your tee time.  If you are behind, you will know instantly.  Desert Mountain does this.
5. After a warning and a few recovery holes, if the group is still behind make them skip a hole.
6. One course offered a free drink to every golfer who finished under the stated pace of play time.

Most pace of play articles focus only on the golfers, but studies have shown that poor course setup causes at least half of the slow play problems. 

 

Some thoughts about the course rather than the golfers.

1. Looking for balls is a time killer and takes the fun out of golf.  Reduce the number of areas where balls can be lost especially on the right side of the fairway.
2. Fast greens leads to slower play for amateurs.  Stop trying to make your greens the fastest in town.
3. The first hole should be very open with NO reasonable opportunity to lose a ball so players can get off to a fast (and happy) start.  Looking for a ball on the first hole makes for unhappy golfers.
4. Bunkers slow play. Does your course have too many bunkers?
5. Tee times too close together do not allow for any "ebb and flow", so most groups are always waiting.  Studies show that 10-minute intervals are better than 8 or 9 and lead to happier golfers.
6. Some courses (Punta Espada, for example) do not let you tee off until the group in front clears the green.  This creates a gap so when groups play slower or faster on a given hole, they don't wait or have to wait.

I can't find the website but there is a company that only does golf course pace of play consulting.  I'll post it if I can find it.

 

 

 

[caniac6]

This time of year, with short days and frost delays, it’s pretty tough to get more people on the course. My club does a 10:00 shotgun on Saturdays. In the summer, we don’t start until 8, and there is no reason we couldn’t start at   7. I’ve worked places that had lights on the greens mowers, and the golfers started at first light.

[hammergolf]

5 hours ago, gonewild said:

Long story short, I retired from the corporate world back in June to oversee our house build. A few months ago I went to work part-time at a local semi-private course and I've learned a lot about course operations there, but now I have the chance to be the shop manager at a private course. I have my second interview this coming week and the pro asked me to come prepared to discuss how to handle more play with an increase in members (+/- 100) last year.

 

My thought immediately went to pace of play and tee time spacing. During our initial interview he mentioned the first couple of holes are relatively easy, but then the course toughens and that is usually where they see back-ups. I fired up an Excel spreadsheet and started doing analysis on 8-12 min tee times (they use 😎. At this point I'm still compiling the data, but I thought why not turn here and see if I should be looking at something other than pace?

 

Thanks

The best club I’ve ever seen handle heavy play did two waves of shotgun starts. They had a morning wave at 8:00 and an afternoon wave at 1:00. They would handle 144 rounds with no issue. The other places just did tee times off #1 and #10. Both worked well.

[gonewild]

Thanks for the responses so far. Reading over the replies since my last post, I'll try an answer what I can.

• This is a Donlad Ross course.
  • I've been told (again haven't played it), the course is fairly open, but the greens are what make it difficult.
  • Being a Ross, course I wouldn't expect long distances between greens and tees so I feel confident in ruling out course layout as a potential problem for slow play.
  • Yes, there are bunkers. Being a Ross course, I don't see them changing them.
• They do allow walking, if it was mandatory carts I could see a timer in the cart letting you know you are behind being an option, here I'm not sure.
• I'm not sure if they use a ranger, certainly this would help keeping up pace. I'll need to ask about this one.
• The shotgun start is a consideration, but for members that chose to walk, I could see an issue there depending on how far from the clubhouse they would have to walk.

 

 

[caniac6]

Our course will allow some guys to take a cart out to a hole for the shotgun start. The walkers just leave the cart there, and bring it back in when they finish.

[Instron4204]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

Pace of play is easy to control.  You just have to want to do it and many courses don't want to make the effort. 

I've played many courses that actively manage pace of play.  Some of the things they do include.

 

1. Communicate the pace of play rules.
2. Monitor every group coming off #9 and warn them if they are behind pace.  Cherry Hills does this.
3. Put a "list of shame" in the locker room so everybody can see who was behind pace at the turn.  Cherry Hills does this.
4. Put a clock on every third hole showing your tee time.  If you are behind, you will know instantly.  Desert Mountain does this.
5. After a warning and a few recovery holes, if the group is still behind make them skip a hole.
6. One course offered a free drink to every golfer who finished under the stated pace of play time.

Most pace of play articles focus only on the golfers, but studies have shown that poor course setup causes at least half of the slow play problems. 

 

Some thoughts about the course rather than the golfers.

1. Looking for balls is a time killer and takes the fun out of golf.  Reduce the number of areas where balls can be lost especially on the right side of the fairway.
2. Fast greens leads to slower play for amateurs.  Stop trying to make your greens the fastest in town.
3. The first hole should be very open with NO reasonable opportunity to lose a ball so players can get off to a fast (and happy) start.  Looking for a ball on the first hole makes for unhappy golfers.
4. Bunkers slow play. Does your course have too many bunkers?
5. Tee times too close together do not allow for any "ebb and flow", so most groups are always waiting.  Studies show that 10-minute intervals are better than 8 or 9 and lead to happier golfers.
6. Some courses (Punta Espada, for example) do not let you tee off until the group in front clears the green.  This creates a gap so when groups play slower or faster on a given hole, they don't wait or have to wait.

I can't find the website but there is a company that only does golf course pace of play consulting.  I'll post it if I can find it.

 

 

 

These sound like great options.  Thank you for sharing this information.

[ArtMBgolf]

Have a Ranger if they don't do it now.   Give the ranger power.  You can do that at 
a private club.  
 
Slow AM groups only get PM TT for a period of time. 
  
A course near me with too many members had a lottery TT system. 
This gave everyone the chance to play early and the wider their criteria the 
better odds of getting a tee time.   
 
Make sure the same guys don't have early every day, unless maybe they are 
fast players.       

[mallrat]

A course I used to belong to had an interesting process. All groups in the first hour agreed to play in under 4 hours. If you or your group could not keep up or play in under 4 your name was removed from the players available to play in that first hour. Then the marshall could stay on the following groups to stay on them and let them know they were falling behind. 

[BirdieRoll]

I'll offer comments regarding course set up because there are so many little things a course can do that are small but collectively they shave minutes off a round.

 

As mentioned, keep greens speeds reasonable. Having "lightning fast" greens, especially if greens already have some undulation and contours, is not a noble endeavor. It just hurts pace.

 

Help players play from the appropriate set of tees. Paint the red tees orange. The club may have some older male members that should be playing from the most forward but no way are they gonna be seen at the red tees. Change the color and some might move up.

 

If the Men's forward tees are yellow, change them to white. Make the Mens standard tees Blue. One in from the tips Yellow. Black for the tips. Tee color is huge, the golf community just doesn't really talk about the stigma. It's there.

 

Combo tees. If not already in place, add them. Players really like them. It'd be a small cost upfront to have them rated, but it really helps pace. Too many courses have nothing between 5,700 and 6,500 yards. Guys will usually play the longer tees but in effect a par 72 course is now a par 76 (or higher) for a lot of these players.

 

Two examples: if the longer tees have a 420 yard par 4, for the average golfer it's really a short part five. They'll likely need a third shot to get on the green. But make the same hole 380 via a Combo tee and now you're helping the player which helps everyone playing behind him. Same thing for a 190 yard par 3. Get that player to a 165 yard tee box. 

 

Also, some courses are now ditching the whole color scheme and using numbers and letters for tee boxes. 

 

Tightly mown areas around the greens. If the course is just heavy rough then there's only one way to play the shot likely. But if there are tightly mown areas, players can play to their strength, whether that be putting, bump n run, flying the ball to the hole or using a hybrid/metal. Better shots means fewer putts which improves pace.

 

Reasonable pin placements. Keep the sucker pins for tournaments.

 

Watch the weather. If a day is going to be blustery from a certain direction, maybe move up the tees on a couple of holes that will play long.

 

I'm sure there are other tips that others can think of but if the course is going to stay at eight minute tee times, I think course set up can really help if they are not already doing some of these things.

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

[ShortGolfer]

How about a free caddy for new members if they play when the course isn't busy?

A caddy can teach them proper course manners and help them avoid course hazards that slow down play at the same time!

 

Lots of folks will jump at the chance to get freebies!

 

Since it is free you have a lot of control over the situation and can modify or change things as circumstances dictate without too much blowback.

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by ShortGolfer

[gonewild]

As far as a Ranger, I've been a member at multiple private clubs over the years and now that I think about it, none used a ranger or starter. I'm not sure whether this club uses them, but I'll certainly ask. BirdieRoll mentioned combo tees, I checked the scorecard and this club has that in place. The last club I was at had those and it definitely is beneficial. 

 

All good comments and suggestions, the second interview can't get here quick enough. Thanks again to all.

[Imp]

22 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Some thoughts about the course rather than the golfers.

1. Looking for balls is a time killer and takes the fun out of golf.  Reduce the number of areas where balls can be lost especially on the right side of the fairway.
2. Tee times too close together do not allow for any "ebb and flow", so most groups are always waiting.  Studies show that 10-minute intervals are better than 8 or 9 and lead to happier golfers.
3. Some courses (Punta Espada, for example) do not let you tee off until the group in front clears the green.  This creates a gap so when groups play slower or faster on a given hole, they don't wait or have to wait.

Here are your three top suggestions. 

On the holes that get choked up, why?  Is the green too steep? I was a member at an old private course (Fall River MA) where the 3rd hole was about 180-200+ yds, tees were elevated about 60 -70feet up, to a narrow green that was sloped about 20 feet back to front with nary a flat surface, over water, no room for error because trees left and right. So #1 above is big here, and this hole was always a choke point because par was like a bird. 

Tee times close together is an issue also. Because it doesn't allow others to actually look for balls, and when they do, the group behind is watching them look for balls. 10 min spacing allows for a great pace and clubs that HAVE gone to 10 min has seen, believe it or not, faster times as a whole. And if you allow #3, it really depends on #1's layout. A few courses around here, #1 is 290ish par 4 which takes less than 10 min on average to play. If you wait for the group to get off, it may be shorter in quite a few cases than the 10 min window. Yet, if you wait 10 min, it looks like "hey, you have the hole open!!! Why?" 10 min is really a good pace and allows for good flow with the occasional ebb.
 

[Apeshill]

Our club uses 8 minute tee times. On weekends, we use a ballot system but the pro ensures that the 3 fastest 4 somes of regulars are out first. They set a pace of 3hr 20 min for everyone to try follow.  If your group is over 4 hours, your names are put on the wall of shame by starters shack. Pace of play has been ingrained in members and they take pride in it.