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Why carbon drivers (specially Callaway) cracks?


GSM
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So, my son's (12 years old) Callaway Epic SZ simply cracked the carbon piece during a normal practice. The same happened to other 2 players from the high performance team in our club. There are several reports like this in the foruns as well. 

 

So, why is that? And as those Callaway drivers are really fragile, is it the case to switch to other brands that make full titanium drivers? Any recommendation on a specific model? He is 12 years old, hits around 200-240 years in mid-fairway (currently 4th in the national ranking, boys, 12, Brazil).

 

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If it's the Epic from last year should still be under warranty and Callaway should replace it. Most brands are good with replacements if components fail from normal usage. 

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4 minutes ago, Kale_m said:

Ever seen carbon / composite hockey sticks? They explode 

While the world is getting smaller, he mentioned about his son being ranked in Brazil, so you might have to explain what hockey is 😃

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Drivers can crack for several reasons.  They are made from thin materials, so a small manufacturing glitch can result in a shortened lifespan.

And yes, pounding range rocks off the crown in 45 degree temps will absolutely increase the chance of failure.

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It's a fine line between light weight and structurally sound. 

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My guess would be material fatigue over time, as you hit more and more golf balls. Or bad bond between crown and face when that is failure point, where you see lots of commonalities in failures from a model year of a club, you know that is simply the mechanically weak point of the club (failure point) as in inherent design flaw, or material at it's limits. 

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2 hours ago, Kale_m said:

Ever seen carbon / composite hockey sticks? They explode 

Worked in the composite industry, specifically hockey sticks & baseball bats, ski's etc. Despite the advancements in tech, the same issue w/premature breakage & cracking still occurs. Typically, especially w/baseball/softball bats, you are advised to not use them in temps 50 or below. These products are usually only replaceable by the manufacturer one time. Not a big deal for pro hockey players, but can get expensive for kids. Pretty sure that's why you haven't seen any composite faced Stealth fairways or hybrids. The force generated driving the club into the fairway/ground, rough, sand, etc will eventually cause face cracks & possible breakage. The composite used on the crown of any club is a different application than that of the Stealth face. Its a bold move by Taylormade, and one that could become costly if the composite face breaks down like most other composite sporting goods applications

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It has been almost 40 years since my mechanics of materials class in engineering school but I suspect that the toughness of carbon fiber matrix faces and connections are not as high as the metal ones. Toughness is a term used to measure a material’s ability to withstand sudden impacts without failing. 
The golf manufacturing engineers will know more about this than I do but a lot of these club heads are very near their limits.

I am surprised more driver heads of all types last as long as they do.

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Two common places are where multi-material heads fail are at bond interfaces, and the face themselves. Modern faces are very thin, which is what engineers are chasing: how thin can we make it fo best speed retention within limits while also pulling weight to other parts of the club.

 

Taylormade has their share of face cracks and caves. Lower selling brands I am not sure of as the number of Cally and TM heads out there makes it that we hear about them more. Bryson sure has cracked a few Cobra heads (IIRC him and Kyle are playing older LTD heads but working with them on new designs) 

 

I am 1 for 1 in warranty replacement from Cally: cold range balls and my old Rogue didn't mix well. 

 

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On 1/30/2022 at 7:23 AM, bvanlieu said:

Two common places are where multi-material heads fail are at bond interfaces, and the face themselves. Modern faces are very thin, which is what engineers are chasing: how thin can we make it fo best speed retention within limits while also pulling weight to other parts of the club.

 

Taylormade has their share of face cracks and caves. Lower selling brands I am not sure of as the number of Cally and TM heads out there makes it that we hear about them more. Bryson sure has cracked a few Cobra heads (IIRC him and Kyle are playing older LTD heads but working with them on new designs) 

 

I am 1 for 1 in warranty replacement from Cally: cold range balls and my old Rogue didn't mix well. 

 

Totally agree, the weld between those 2 materials seems to be the weak point (3 Epic cracked in the same place among the 6 players in their team in last year). I understand range balls and lots of practice can be challeging for those new, very thin drivers. Reason why we'll move to the TiS2 Tietlist driver. No known failure on those full titanium drivers in our local club, while the Callaway are experiencing a huge number of failures (specially Epics and Rogues).  

Question is: are the TIS2 the best choice of do you recommend something else? 

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15 minutes ago, GSM said:

Yes, i contacted them, they denied any replacement. The only thing they offered was a "sorry for the inconvenience".

They didn’t give any other indication why they wouldn’t replace? Just curious how others have replacements. This might help me make future choices if callaway denies claims and their heads are prone to breaking.

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22 minutes ago, GSM said:

Yes, i contacted them, they denied any replacement. The only thing they offered was a "sorry for the inconvenience".

 

That should be under warranty and Callaway has great customer service. Now I'm thinking here new account, no pics, slandering a company with good reputation. 

 

red flag 24hnbr GIF by ADAC TOTAL 24h Nürburgring

 

Anyone else getting red flags from a troll? 

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Lefty

Driver: 8° Cobra LTDxLS | Mitsubishi C6 Onyx 60X

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Not quite a red flag but certainly feel like there should be a Not sure if Serious Fry meme with that post 🙂 

 

My rogue was within 1 year of the CPO warranty so they fixed it, otherwise it would have to be courtesy warranty which I have heard them doing inside of 2 years. But 4-5? not gonna happen and can't blame any  MFG for that. 

 

I can't recall reading many threads about Mavrik or Speed face cracks, so the evolution of their flashface seems more durable than the older face tech. Stuff still happens, I am sure there are warranty claims no different then the new SIM2 that had an adjustment failure from a buddy of mine. Just had to wait for a replacement. 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, LeftyMatt24 said:

They didn’t give any other indication why they wouldn’t replace? Just curious how others have replacements. This might help me make future choices if callaway denies claims and their heads are prone to breaking.

The original Epic model is pretty old. I'd say it was a toss up whether they'd replace it or not. Probably just outside the warranty period.

 

OP get your son fit. There is no "best" manufacturer. They all have their share of failures.

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3 hours ago, LeftyMatt24 said:

They didn’t give any other indication why they wouldn’t replace? Just curious how others have replacements. This might help me make future choices if callaway denies claims and their heads are prone to breaking.

Yes, they did. Warranty expired. So on the legal point of view, they have the right to refuse any liability and i understand that. BUT, honestly, sounds like they're selling drivers that lasts for 2 years, and 2 years only. We (my son and I) only used Callaway since the beginning in Golf, I should say I was so disapointed that we donate all hats and shirts with Callaway on it to charity. We'll move to other brand and won't make free advertisement of a brand we no long trust in.

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1 minute ago, GSM said:

Yes, they did. Warranty expired. So on the legal point of view, they have the right to refuse any liability and i understand that. BUT, honestly, sounds like they're selling drivers that lasts for 2 years, and 2 years only. We (my son and I) only used Callaway since the beginning in Golf, I should say I was so disapointed that we donate all hats and shirts with Callaway on it to charity. We'll move to other brand and won't make free advertisement of a brand we no long trust in.

 

3 hours ago, MattM97 said:

 

That should be under warranty and Callaway has great customer service. Now I'm thinking here new account, no pics, slandering a company with good reputation. 

 

red flag 24hnbr GIF by ADAC TOTAL 24h Nürburgring

 

Anyone else getting red flags from a troll? 

I understand your concern, but I'm just sharing exactly what happened to me. This discussion was openned to answer the question: is a full titanium driver a better choice than a carbon one for a young player? Didn't mean to hurt Callaway or your feelings.

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2 hours ago, naj959 said:

The original Epic model is pretty old. I'd say it was a toss up whether they'd replace it or not. Probably just outside the warranty period.

 

OP get your son fit. There is no "best" manufacturer. They all have their share of failures.

This one was bought in PGA SuperStore Orlando in Jan 2019. So, yes, warranty expired, reason why i'm searching for a new driver for him and asked the group for recommendations. Need to mention that I just bought (Nov21) a Rogue and I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm more of a weekend player and not a competitive athlete, like my son.

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1 minute ago, GSM said:

 

I understand your concern, but I'm just sharing exactly what happened to me. This discussion was openned to answer the question: is a full titanium driver a better choice than a carbon one for a young player? Didn't mean to hurt Callaway or your feelings.

 

You're just not too clear because Callaway Epic there are several versions the GBB Epic came out in 2017, the Epic Flash came out in 2019 and the latest Epic was in 2021. The first 2 would be out of warranty which is fair not every brand will warranty something that long, if it was the latest Epic they would replace it.

 

You also said that driver you bought in Jan 2019, so it's already 2 years old at that point and broke recently so that driver has 4 years of use on it and the last 2 were substantial if your son is practicing a lot. The driver had a long life and most likely failed for prolonged use, maybe developed a small crack putting the driver into the bag or in travel or something. So it's not so much carbon being bad maybe your son just used the drive until it couldn't handle the use anymore. 

 

Plus not too many brands now do a full titanium drivers and they are expensive for the ones that do them. Like some others said get your son a fitting especially if he's competitive and a high level player, it will cost you a bit more but it will have a warranty on it for the amount your son plays/practices.  

 

 

 

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Lefty

Driver: 8° Cobra LTDxLS | Mitsubishi C6 Onyx 60X

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Most everything you purchase comes with a manufacturer warranty. Once you're outside of it, they will not cover damages. That's just the way it is. You cannot expect any golf OEM to replace a 3 year old driver.

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15 hours ago, GSM said:

BUT, honestly, sounds like they're selling drivers that lasts for 2 years, and 2 years only. 

 

Bit of a reach on your conclusion after your experience with ONE club.

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Carbon fiber is very strong but also is more brittle than steel/titanium. The strain of impacts over time can eventually cause failure. Still, driver heads fail at different locations for various reasons. With the use case for a small object designed to hit the crap out of a stationary object, we're fortunate to have good warranties for the first year or two of usage. Sadly though I don't think we'll ever see anything built to the level that performs at the limit and covered by the OEM for longer under warranty. 

 

We're also talking about products that get redesigned every 1 or 2 years. The tech used to manufacture them doesn't change as much over time but every head can have its own potential weak point. 

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On 2/2/2022 at 2:19 PM, GSM said:

Yes, they did. Warranty expired. So on the legal point of view, they have the right to refuse any liability and i understand that. BUT, honestly, sounds like they're selling drivers that lasts for 2 years, and 2 years only. We (my son and I) only used Callaway since the beginning in Golf, I should say I was so disapointed that we donate all hats and shirts with Callaway on it to charity. We'll move to other brand and won't make free advertisement of a brand we no long trust in.

Just watched a Matt Blois video on youtube (formerly of TXG), featuring a Cobra marketing rep. In summary, the rep goes on to say that when you design clubs to have extremely thin faces and be at the C.O.R. legal limit, they will fail over time. It's just something we have to accept as a tradeoff for the performance. A thicker face would last longer but you won't get anywhere near the ballspeeds and distance we've become accustomed to.

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