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AMG - Increasing Swing Speed Through Proper Hand Speed


jholz
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I came across this video yesterday and generally like AMG's content, but having a hard time wrapping my head around this one:

 

 

It makes sense if we thing about all of the levers and leverage involved in generating club head speed - makes me think of the Trebuchet idea. But, I'm having a hard time trying to work this into a set of feels that might carry over into an actual swing. 

 

Seems like these ideas can easily get into the "pulling the handle" and "holding the angles" rabbit holes.

 

Ultimately, what do you folks think of this?  

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I am a big proponent of speeding up the hands, because when I focus on do so it forces me to do other good things in my swing, including staying closed longer, pressuring better into my lead side, etc. For me, this means a more well connected, more effortless swing with less variability. I lose this feeling from time to time, so it's always a good thought to go back to.  

 

That said, I do wish there was a bit more detail given on how to actually speed up the hands, other than "just do it." I'm sure some of it is just genetic ability (e.g., some guys are just fast), but any feels, drills, etc. to actually speed up the hands would be nice. 

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12 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

I am a big proponent of speeding up the hands, because when I focus on do so it forces me to do other good things in my swing, including staying closed longer, pressuring better into my lead side, etc. For me, this means a more well connected, more effortless swing with less variability. I lose this feeling from time to time, so it's always a good thought to go back to.  

 

That said, I do wish there was a bit more detail given on how to actually speed up the hands, other than "just do it." I'm sure some of it is just genetic ability (e.g., some guys are just fast), but any feels, drills, etc. to actually speed up the hands would be nice. 

 

Yes, that's clearly a weak point in the video. They keep teasing that they will "tell you what to do" but they don't. They just tell you what not to do. 

 

One of the reasons I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around it. 

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14 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

I am a big proponent of speeding up the hands, because when I focus on do so it forces me to do other good things in my swing, including staying closed longer, pressuring better into my lead side, etc. For me, this means a more well connected, more effortless swing with less variability. I lose this feeling from time to time, so it's always a good thought to go back to.  

 

That said, I do wish there was a bit more detail given on how to actually speed up the hands, other than "just do it." I'm sure some of it is just genetic ability (e.g., some guys are just fast), but any feels, drills, etc. to actually speed up the hands would be nice. 

 

Here's a drill by AMG that Rory uses for speeding up the hands while shallowing. Just be careful to not break a shaft doing it:

 

 

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They talk about the am having a poor intent, leave hands up and rotate.   And that was this ams issue.    eveyone will be unique.

but i'd say a big issue is the backswing - too slow, out of synch, too little depth, too much depth, too flat, . . .      so speed is lost just in compensations needed to get hands moving on downswing with a path that will hit the ball.      So as Dr. Kwon says active, mature backswing - he consistently gets speed gains for the folks who come to him for a reprogramming session - for pro's it depends on where they are in their career - he had lots of established pro's come into his lab and swing for his research but not make changes - he talked about this on with Mike Beaumont.

 

Short story - have to get at the reasons why an individual's swing isn't reaching their potential and in my experience it is highly likely in the backswing/transition.   No universal solution.

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46 minutes ago, jholz said:

I came across this video yesterday and generally like AMG's content, but having a hard time wrapping my head around this one:

 

It makes sense if we thing about all of the levers and leverage involved in generating club head speed - makes me think of the Trebuchet idea. But, I'm having a hard time trying to work this into a set of feels that might carry over into an actual swing. 

 

Seems like these ideas can easily get into the "pulling the handle" and "holding the angles" rabbit holes.

 

Ultimately, what do you folks think of this?  

 

10 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

I am a big proponent of speeding up the hands, because when I focus on do so it forces me to do other good things in my swing, including staying closed longer, pressuring better into my lead side, etc. For me, this means a more well connected, more effortless swing with less variability. I lose this feeling from time to time, so it's always a good thought to go back to.  

 

That said, I do wish there was a bit more detail given on how to actually speed up the hands, other than "just do it." I'm sure some of it is just genetic ability (e.g., some guys are just fast), but any feels, drills, etc. to actually speed up the hands would be nice. 

 

Definitely not the player you guys are (been playing only 2 years - but loving it!)... I had seen this video before and will look into the replys here because, when practicing and pushing for faster hands feeling - there are benefits as dvq mentioned; back to the target longer, connected swing, Rose drill style, shallowing club (dropping with lead forearm pronation and lead arm adduction - not OTT 'spining out')... but I'm guessing the missing piece in that video is that pros lower body (torque generation) is matching up that speed and in sync... when doing those 'speeding up' the hands swing (and only focusing on this) - my knees get back even with the target line only by P5.5ish and I'm pretty sure it's late for an agressive body driven pivot (when looking at a multitude of tour swings, they get there by P5 at the latest)

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Disclaimer: I just watched it without the sound (at work..shhh).

 

From just watching it, reminds me of what I was taught back in the early 70's.  Trying to hold the release as long as you can.  We were taught to try to keep the butt end of the grip pointed at the ball as long as we could in the downswing.  The entire purpose of this was just trying to hold the release as long as you can.  The swing is composed of many moving parts...this was just one of the parts to focus on at a particular point in the swing.  We would start doing it in slow motion & then try to work up from that point.  From just the visual of the video...that is what came to my mind on it.  SO....since this was back in the 70's, I can claim age as a disclaimer if you guys think I am totally off from what the video was about.

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7 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

Here's a drill by AMG that Rory uses for speeding up the hands while shallowing. Just be careful to not break a shaft doing it:

 

 

 

Yeah, this fits with how my mind has been rationalizing the feels and how exactly to apply speed in the hands. 

 

I have a bit of a Furyk loop at the top of my swing to shallow the club, and I can envision myself essentially speeding up the latter half of that move. A little pause at the top to get the hands in the right position, then accelerating from there. 

 

One of these days it will stop snowing and I can actually get to the range to work on this. It does really fit into where I am presently in my swing rebuild. 

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3 minutes ago, GLF4EVR said:

Disclaimer: I just watched it without the sound (at work..shhh).

 

From just watching it, reminds me of what I was taught back in the early 70's.  Trying to hold the release as long as you can.  We were taught to try to keep the butt end of the grip pointed at the ball as long as we could in the downswing.  The entire purpose of this was just trying to hold the release as long as you can.  The swing is composed of many moving parts...this was just one of the parts to focus on at a particular point in the swing.  We would start doing it in slow motion & then try to work up from that point.  From just the visual of the video...that is what came to my mind on it.  SO....since this was back in the 70's, I can claim age as a disclaimer if you guys think I am totally off from what the video was about.

 

Yeah, exactly. This is the kind of thing my Grandpa was telling me in the late 70's/early 80's as I was learning the game - and led to those "pulling the handle" and "maintaining the angles" problems that so many contemporary coaches are fighting against. 

 

So, I don't think it is the move itself, but rather how we are rationalizing it and the "feels" that we are using to achieve it. 

 

I think when you add shallowing the swing to the equation, it starts to make more sense. 

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2 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Yeah, exactly. This is the kind of thing my Grandpa was telling me in the late 70's/early 80's as I was learning the game - and led to those "pulling the handle" and "maintaining the angles" problems that so many contemporary coaches are fighting against. 

 

So, I don't think it is the move itself, but rather how we are rationalizing it and the "feels" that we are using to achieve it. 

 

I think when you add shallowing the swing to the equation, it starts to make more sense. 

Thanks.....again, this was just one part of the swing.  It was taught to us "much later in the teaching process".  My closest friends dad had taught us most of the basics when we first started.  After a couple of years, the pro at the course would have classes during the summer that we would take.  His teachings were that the swing was made up of several parts & went thru each part in trying to teach us how to hit a ball.  This part of it was one of the last things that he had us work on.  Cannot remember, but seems like it was 5-6 "sequences" that the pro had us work on to try to make the swing into a whole package.  Of course all of us are kids back in the early 70's, so those that picked stuff up quicker would always be helping out the ones struggling......another big plus, parents were always no where to be seen when the lessons were going on.

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31 minutes ago, glk said:

They talk about the am having a poor intent, leave hands up and rotate.   And that was this ams issue.    eveyone will be unique.

but i'd say a big issue is the backswing - too slow, out of synch, too little depth, too much depth, too flat, . . .      so speed is lost just in compensations needed to get hands moving on downswing with a path that will hit the ball.      So as Dr. Kwon says active, mature backswing - he consistently gets speed gains for the folks who come to him for a reprogramming session - for pro's it depends on where they are in their career - he had lots of established pro's come into his lab and swing for his research but not make changes - he talked about this on with Mike Beaumont.

 

Short story - have to get at the reasons why an individual's swing isn't reaching their potential and in my experience it is highly likely in the backswing/transition.   No universal solution.

 

Yes, clearly. It's one of the problems with these kinds of concepts. When you separate them out from the swing, you have to do so with an assumption that the player is getting into the right positions at the top to execute them. 

 

If you get your average recreational player reading a tip like this in Golf Digest or something (notice the age) and then trying to incorporate it into a flawed backswing, all sorts of bad things can result. 

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31 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Yeah, exactly. This is the kind of thing my Grandpa was telling me in the late 70's/early 80's as I was learning the game - and led to those "pulling the handle" and "maintaining the angles" problems that so many contemporary coaches are fighting against. 

 

So, I don't think it is the move itself, but rather how we are rationalizing it and the "feels" that we are using to achieve it. 

 

I think when you add shallowing the swing to the equation, it starts to make more sense. 

As a “ handle puller “ at times myself. Mainly with driver. A thought  or drill that takes this away is to imagine trying to knock over a coke can in your backswing.  Think of it as being as far back as you can reach. This make ME take it back low and wide , and for  whatever reason makes me come back down wider and shallow.  Vs steep and narrow.  I consistently see 1-3 mph swing and ballspeed jumps from that one thought.  It has to be creating faster hand speeds.  Doesn’t it ?  I mean I don’t know how to prove it. But it creates a better flight.  And more speed.  For ME.       I think the pull down , move stalls the hands since there’s not enough room to build speed.  The clubhead may speed up at the end with the narrow move , but I think that wide wide let’s it be fast at the right moment.   Which is just before the ball. Not just after the ball.  Does that make any sense ?   I’m purely spit balling here. 

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2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

As a “ handle puller “ at times myself. Mainly with driver. A thought  or drill that takes this away is to imagine trying to knock over a coke can in your backswing.  Think of it as being as far back as you can reach. This make ME take it back low and wide , and for  whatever reason makes me come back down wider and shallow.  Vs steep and narrow.  I consistently see 1-3 mph swing and ballspeed jumps from that one thought.  It has to be creating faster hand speeds.  Doesn’t it ?  I mean I don’t know how to prove it. But it creates a better flight.  And more speed.  For ME.       I think the pull down , move stalls the hands since there’s not enough room to build speed.  The clubhead may speed up at the end with the narrow move , but I think that wide wide let’s it be fast at the right moment.   Which is just before the ball. Not just after the ball.  Does that make any sense ?   I’m purely spit balling here. 

 

Yeah, totally. The second AMG video that @GungHoGolf posted talks about this - not letting the speeding up of the hands result in a collapse of the trail elbow, narrowing the swing and getting the shaft steep. 

 

I still need to test out the idea, but in my mind, it seems like the acceleration of the hands is really tied to shallowing the club. If you get the club shallowed properly, it should get you into a good position to accelerate the hands without narrowing the swing and getting steep. 

 

This is all totally theoretical of course. I'm sure someone will show up shortly to call me an idiot. 😄

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The intent can be confusing and what seems to work for me is try to reach max hand speed when hands approach right knee. If I go with that, then my shoulder do not rotate open too soon. The "throw away" from the top is the key because it has to have right direction too. There's a video of Tiger & Butch on GC from decades ago, he talked about getting hands "down to knees" as fast as possible. Same idea to my mind. The straightening of trail arm and or not over bending it is important to this.

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3 minutes ago, jholz said:

 

Yeah, totally. The second AMG video that @GungHoGolf posted talks about this - not letting the speeding up of the hands result in a collapse of the trail elbow, narrowing the swing and getting the shaft steep. 

 

I still need to test out the idea, but in my mind, it seems like the acceleration of the hands is really tied to shallowing the club. If you get the club shallowed properly, it should get you into a good position to accelerate the hands without narrowing the swing and getting steep. 

 

This is all totally theoretical of course. I'm sure someone will show up shortly to call me an idiot. 😄

Lol.  Yea.  I’m sure. We’re all idiots. Tell me some new info  !  😂

 

that’s my feel for it in the backswing.  It’s not a hard reach back  , just extension that extends all  the way up.  Then trace the line ( feel) coming back to the ball.  I’m purely talking driver for ME.  With an iron , I just let it do what it do ! 

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One of my more memorable lessons was with a pro who went into a long diatribe about how she swings with her feet.  I'm not quite sure what I was supposed to get out of that, iow it fit right in with the rest of her instruction.

 

My point being that it seems as though every body part at one time or another has been advocated as the swing key (hips, knee, elbow, arms, shoulder and even the feet) so why not give the hands some equal time?

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As Monte explains very well, there's a lag between your intent and what your body does and the timing of the transition is measured in milliseconds. Having the conscious thought to start moving your hands early is really a bit of a trick to get them to not move late. 

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7 minutes ago, tm3 said:

One of my more memorable lessons was with a pro who went into a long diatribe about how she swings with her feet.  I'm not quite sure what I was supposed to get out of that, iow it fit right in with the rest of her instruction.

 

My point being that it seems as though every body part at one time or another has been advocated as the swing key (hips, knee, elbow, arms, shoulder and even the feet) so why not give the hands some equal time?

 

Yeah, but I think it is important to understand that I'm not forwarding this as a "swing key."

 

It's purely about swing speed and how it is mechanically generated through physical movements within the golf swing. 

 

Applying these principles well could have good results. Applying them poorly could be disastrous.

 

So, me personally, I wouldn't try to apply this as a swing key, per se.

 

Rather, it helps me to understand more concretely what I am already doing, and how I can improve and refine some individual elements of an already competent golf swing. 

 

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Can't speak for anyone else, as I am self-taught.  I never thought my SS was high or different; not until a tour club builder acquaintance watched me swing.  He was building a set of clubs for me, and asked me to explain my swing... I laughed, then said I look to where I want the ball to go, then hit the sh** out of the ball.  He had no launch monitor, he just watched me at the range, and smiled.

 

I have always known my hands were doing something during impact, just wasn't sure what.  To this day, I just like smacking the ball hard, no science.  What I didn't realize was the extent of my wanting to hit the ball hard, had my hands accelerating at the last possible moment before impact.  My SS increases in the last inch or two before impact.  Handle pusher using my right side????

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5 hours ago, bladehunter said:

As a “ handle puller “ at times myself. Mainly with driver. A thought  or drill that takes this away is to imagine trying to knock over a coke can in your backswing.  Think of it as being as far back as you can reach. This make ME take it back low and wide , and for  whatever reason makes me come back down wider and shallow.  Vs steep and narrow.  I consistently see 1-3 mph swing and ballspeed jumps from that one thought.  It has to be creating faster hand speeds.  Doesn’t it ?  I mean I don’t know how to prove it. But it creates a better flight.  And more speed.  For ME.       I think the pull down , move stalls the hands since there’s not enough room to build speed.  The clubhead may speed up at the end with the narrow move , but I think that wide wide let’s it be fast at the right moment.   Which is just before the ball. Not just after the ball.  Does that make any sense ?   I’m purely spit balling here. 

It makes perfect sense.

Your drill with an imaginary coke can is basically the Mickey Wright tee drill in which she placed a medium length tee in the ground about a foot directly behind the ball and knocked it over going back .
Sasho Mckenzie did a study correlating hand width in the backswing to greater clubhead speed at impact 

Look  at all of the long hitters . They  all create a good deal of width going back . Bryson is a good current example 
Instead of following the “ flavor “ of the month to gain distance , golfers should first increase their hand width going back. And the secret to doing this is via delaying straightening their trail arm. 

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44 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

Can't speak for anyone else, as I am self-taught.  I never thought my SS was high or different; not until a tour club builder acquaintance watched me swing.  He was building a set of clubs for me, and asked me to explain my swing... I laughed, then said I look to where I want the ball to go, then hit the sh** out of the ball.  He had no launch monitor, he just watched me at the range, and smiled.

 

I have always known my hands were doing something during impact, just wasn't sure what.  To this day, I just like smacking the ball hard, no science.  What I didn't realize was the extent of my wanting to hit the ball hard, had my hands accelerating at the last possible moment before impact.  My SS increases in the last inch or two before impact.  Handle pusher using my right side????

 

If only it were that simple for me. As a kid it was, but once I got into my 30's that "hit it hard" instinct never resulted in good things. I clearly had a lot of faults in my swing. 

 

So, I've completely rebuilt my swing over the past five years with a focus on consistency and ball striking. Speed was never really a goal during that process.

 

Now that I feel like I've got a solid base to work with, I want to start reintroducing some of that focus on swing speed. But, I want to do it in a conscious way and really understand what is going on. It might be a fools errand, but it keeps me occupied. 😃

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17 hours ago, jholz said:

 

Yeah, but I think it is important to understand that I'm not forwarding this as a "swing key."

 

It's purely about swing speed and how it is mechanically generated through physical movements within the golf swing. 

 

Applying these principles well could have good results. Applying them poorly could be disastrous.

 

So, me personally, I wouldn't try to apply this as a swing key, per se.

 

Rather, it helps me to understand more concretely what I am already doing, and how I can improve and refine some individual elements of an already competent golf swing. 

 

Yes, I understand.  I was trying to be funny and hope that I did not come across as critical.

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2 hours ago, tm3 said:

Yes, I understand.  I was trying to be funny and hope that I did not come across as critical.

 

Ah gotcha. Dry humor is always difficult to detect in text. 😃

 

No sense of criticism or offense either. So all is well, mon frer!

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19 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

It makes perfect sense.

Your drill with an imaginary coke can is basically the Mickey Wright tee drill in which she placed a medium length tee in the ground about a foot directly behind the ball and knocked it over going back .
Sasho Mckenzie did a study correlating hand width in the backswing to greater clubhead speed at impact 

Look  at all of the long hitters . They  all create a good deal of width going back . Bryson is a good current example 
Instead of following the “ flavor “ of the month to gain distance , golfers should first increase their hand width going back. And the secret to doing this is via delaying straightening their trail arm. 

 

Yeah, the wide backswing idea is one I am very familiar with - particularly the whole "wide-narrow-wide" concept that seemed to be all the rage in the late 90's/early 2000's. And yes, the wider backswing is a thought that I think still works - but like all things golf is easily overdone or incorrectly applied. 

 

And it's within that context that I found the AMG video so interesting. It seems like everyone would always talk about what to do to get wide in the backswing, but would never carry that over into a discussion of the downswing. 

 

And honestly, throughout the entirety of my golfing career, the downswing has been something of a mystery. I've always just tried to get into good positions at the top, and then "let the downswing happen."

 

I know the positions. I know what is supposed to happen. I just wish I understood better how to make my body do those things. 

 

WRX - and all the great folks around here like you - are always a great resource for helping me to get a bit further down the road in my journey. So, thank you!

 

 

Cleveland Launcher HB 10.5* - Stock Miyazaki C. Kua 50 Stiff
Callaway Diablo Octane Tour 13* - Aldila NV 75 Stiff
or
Callaway Diablo Edge Tour 15* - Accra Dymatch M5 75
Mizuno F-50 18* - Stock Stiff
or
Callaway Diablo Edge Tour Hybrid 21* - Aldila NV 85 Stiff
Callaway RAZR Tour Hybrid 24* - Stock XStiff
5 - PW Cleveland CG7 Tour Black Pearl - DGSL S300
Cleveland 588 RTX Rotex 2.0 50* DG Wedge
Cleveland 588 RTX Rotex 2.0 54* DG Wedge
Callaway X-Series JAWS Slate CC 58* Stock Wedge
Odyssey White Ice #7 - Golf Pride Oversize

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