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Driving distance aside, what is the single biggest difference between tour players and scratch/good golfers?


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5 hours ago, Obee said:

 

I honestly believe we are getting closer to people getting this, Monte. More an more people every day learn from people who know that ball striking is the number one factor in playing well, overwhelmingly. It's actually happening.

Join a few Facebook forums and then tell me what you think.  Without exception people tell me despite my experience as a player and teacher on tour, I’m wrong.  “Everyone knows it’s all about short game and anyone who says different is stupid. “


we are into triple digits…lol

All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

BERTRAND RUSSELL

 

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1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Join a few Facebook forums and then tell me what you think.  Without exception people tell me despite my experience as a player and teacher on tour, I’m wrong.  “Everyone knows it’s all about short game and anyone who says different is stupid. “


we are into triple digits…lol

 

Well dammit then. I'm hopeful still, Monte! 🙂

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1 minute ago, Obee said:

 

I think it's both. There are long hitters (reasonably) straight drivers of the ball who are very, very poor from 80 to 120, say. They may still be good at that range compared to an 8-capper, but they are not solid there at all compared to how good of a driver of the ball they are. Those guys exist. I think ... 😉

In the amateur game, absolutely. At the pro level, much less common IMHO.  At the end of the day the "ball striking" category is driving plus approach the the green. How close can you get it to the hole before your first putt (or chip).  Even if a long bomber isn't the best from wedge distance relative to his peers, the fact that he is hitting far more short clubs puts him at an advantage when it comes to overall proximity. 

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40 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Join a few Facebook forums and then tell me what you think.  Without exception people tell me despite my experience as a player and teacher on tour, I’m wrong.  “Everyone knows it’s all about short game and anyone who says different is stupid. “


we are into triple digits…lol

 

This is where I think the golf community is unbelievable, many guys that genuinely want to educate others with facts - and get turn around like they are idiots...

 

Working in finance for a major bank - this is actually what we crave for, finding those suckers and making deals with them over and over - competitive advantages are so hard to find, you never tell and exploit it to the max

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49 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Join a few Facebook forums and then tell me what you think.  Without exception people tell me despite my experience as a player and teacher on tour, I’m wrong.  “Everyone knows it’s all about short game and anyone who says different is stupid. “


we are into triple digits…lol

I've been looking for the comic for 20 minutes, but I can't find it. I thought it was xkcd but if it is I don't know which one. Anyway, one person says to the other "how do you win arguments with idiots on the internet?" other says "I just say yes you're right and walk away" first person says "what? that's ridiculous - how do you even know you've won?" other says "yes, you're right".

 

I'd say make your point so that anyone else who is reading them can see the points and make their own judgement and then just walk away.

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57 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

I've been looking for the comic for 20 minutes, but I can't find it. I thought it was xkcd but if it is I don't know which one. Anyway, one person says to the other "how do you win arguments with idiots on the internet?" other says "I just say yes you're right and walk away" first person says "what? that's ridiculous - how do you even know you've won?" other says "yes, you're right".

 

I'd say make your point so that anyone else who is reading them can see the points and make their own judgement and then just walk away.

Nice.  I think that a person who gets in a lot of drawn out arguments with idiots on the internet might want to consider just who the idiot really is...

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1 hour ago, baudi said:

@krt Exactly, the point is to dismiss it. And discuss with a different angle. Without saying it is either A or B. Or telling someone to be wrong in the first place. Open discours vs rejection to think out of the box.

I am not sure why you are getting so bent out of shape. You asked a hypothetical question about two hypothetical players, the better ball striker is the one who gets the ball closer to the hole in the same amount of shots. This notion that one way or the other is "better" objectively speaking doesn't make any sense. Hitting long clubs accurately is a very tangible skill, largely a differentiator between skill levels. Hitting driver long and consistently in play is also a very tangible skill, also a a big differentiator between skill levels. To discount/dismiss that ability for the sake of arguing is honestly quite silly. If hitting it long and in play was so easy, everyone would do it.  

 

The scorecard doesn't have any pictures, if two players have similar short game and putting, the better ball striker is the one with the lower scoring average. Older guys who have lost speed are forced to hit those long clubs well, if they didn't their index would quickly inflate. I have yet to meet a golfer who is shortish off the tee but hits their long clubs well, who hasn't been a good player for a very long time. I have also yet to meet a golfer who is consistently long and in play off the tee, yet is truly bad at approach play 

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2 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

I've been looking for the comic for 20 minutes, but I can't find it. I thought it was xkcd but if it is I don't know which one. Anyway, one person says to the other "how do you win arguments with idiots on the internet?" other says "I just say yes you're right and walk away" first person says "what? that's ridiculous - how do you even know you've won?" other says "yes, you're right".

 

I'd say make your point so that anyone else who is reading them can see the points and make their own judgement and then just walk away.

That’s exactly what I did.  I said, “Good luck to your daughter,” after he laid into me and his response was, “She doesn’t need luck with her talent and work ethic.”

 

She occasionally breaks 80.

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All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

BERTRAND RUSSELL

 

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8 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s exactly what I did.  I said, “Good luck to your daughter,” after he laid into me and his response was, “She doesn’t need luck with her talent and work ethic.”

 

She occasionally breaks 80.

I've found that the last thing the deluded parent wants to hear is honesty......they just what to hear that their offspring are destined for the tour.

Whatever works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Nice.  I think that a person who gets in a lot of drawn out arguments with idiots on the internet might want to consider just who the idiot really is...

 

“If you run into an assho1e in the morning, you ran into an assho1e. If you run into assho1es all day, you're the assho1e.”

- Raylan Givens

 

Edited by GungHoGolf
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Before I diagnose my self with depression or low selfesteem first make sure that I am not in fact just surrounding myself with strawmen.

 

Ball striking has two meanings: a statistical and a general meaning. My post opens with the general meaning of ball striking. It is not about the statistical meaning of ball striking.

 

In fact, I opt for different views on the matter by not using statistics. By sketching a number of situations (based on real facts) I simply wonder if and how the paradigm can shift. And see Which of the underlying variables and assumptions would set new cornerstones. This requires out of the box thinking.

 

Imo a real trait of champions is adaptability.  Being able To deal with various playing conditions like course set up, weather or even equipment *1 In the long run Looking for new ways to improve could be an effect.  Bryson proves this to an extended degree and I like how his disruptive methods stir up the conditions. It keeps golf alive. Same feeling for Sarazen here.

 

*1 In historic perspective. The introduction of steel shafts created a situation. And probably/possibly the ball on different occasions. And the rules of course. Always the rules.

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On 2/1/2022 at 11:12 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Join a few Facebook forums and then tell me what you think.  Without exception people tell me despite my experience as a player and teacher on tour, I’m wrong.  “Everyone knows it’s all about short game and anyone who says different is stupid. “


we are into triple digits…lol

In an attempt not to appear overly cynical, the golf equipment manufacturers must have a serious interest in bolstering these beliefs. Where short game requires hours, weeks and years of grinding plus the acquisition of touch/feel, long game can be ‘fixed’ with equipment purchases. Golfwrx might be a product of this. 
 

It also begs the question from a business perspective of telling a fish that wants to learn to climb a tree, that it’s not possible for them to learn. Those people who will get stupid amounts of coaching on short game whilst neglecting their long game don’t see their scores reduce relative to their expenditure of time and money.

 

If they aren’t the best putter you can get them into aimpoint, grain sniffing or something else to convince them that they can break 90 by reducing putts. No need to avoid the reloads off the tee that cost them 10 shots per round. 
 

All the while they believe that they need to chase mythical short game skills, they can be sold more short game lessons and more long game equipment. After all, you only need a couple of ‘magic moves’ for the long game. 

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10 hours ago, DaveMc82 said:

In an attempt not to appear overly cynical, the golf equipment manufacturers must have a serious interest in bolstering these beliefs. Where short game requires hours, weeks and years of grinding plus the acquisition of touch/feel, long game can be ‘fixed’ with equipment purchases. Golfwrx might be a product of this. 
 

It also begs the question from a business perspective of telling a fish that wants to learn to climb a tree, that it’s not possible for them to learn. Those people who will get stupid amounts of coaching on short game whilst neglecting their long game don’t see their scores reduce relative to their expenditure of time and money.

 

If they aren’t the best putter you can get them into aimpoint, grain sniffing or something else to convince them that they can break 90 by reducing putts. No need to avoid the reloads off the tee that cost them 10 shots per round. 
 

All the while they believe that they need to chase mythical short game skills, they can be sold more short game lessons and more long game equipment. After all, you only need a couple of ‘magic moves’ for the long game. 

 

I don't think that's overly cynical 😉

 

The funny thing is that likely it's the other way round. Just about everyone can hole a ten foot putt. Very few people can hit it 320 in the air. People can learn to putt like a PGA tour pro, but there's pretty much no amount of work that can get 99.9% of the planet to drive it like DJ or hit irons like Morikawa. 

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  • 1 month later...

Just want to add to the discussion that when the game of a tour player deteriorates, iron shot (indicated by approach SG) seems to worsen coincidently, often more noticeably than other areas.  For example, Eddie Pepperell recently talked about his struggle attributing poor iron shot as the main cause.  Another example is Hunter Mahan. Look at the SG data of this game in 2020 and 2021:  he is still decent in off-the-tee and putting, but his approach shots SG data, which used to be his strength, has dropped to the bottom of the tour players unfortunately.   So the quality of iron shot is not only the main difference between good scratch golfs and tour plays (the topic of this post), but can be the #1 differentiator between tour players too. 

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