Spinner shafts for wedges by Howard Jones - The #8 iron spinner trick

[Howard_Jones]

Spinner shafts for wedges  - The #8 iron spinner trick

The topic has been hot for more than 10 years on the WRX, but no matter how many times I have explained “how too”, the same questions pops up again, so this tread is written as the full guide, and a reference for future use. The main chapters are written for CONSTANT wgt shafts. (Descending wgt has its own chapter below here)

BACKGROUND.
All of you should know by now, a set of irons shafts, has a progression for flex and deflection as we go shorter. The stiffest shaft in the shaft set is often the #9 or the PW. When we move further into wedges, we are “soft stepping” the same shaft, sometimes more than 4 times or more than a full flex before we get to the LOB wedge, due to using the same shaft combined with higher SW values. For many players that might be an issue for ball flight who might become too high, and spin too low with bad stopping power. Wedges works OPPOSITE of irons where the curve for spin turns about the loft area of the PW.

For higher lofted clubs, Launch still goes up while spin goes down, and combined with soft stepping we lose a lot of spin that way.
The IDEAL is to have FULL flex progression all the way to the last club played to full swing, and for many thats the GW, but we can hardly ever buy a "GW shaft", so this is the "backdoor" to that shaft that officially dont exist.





THE DETAILS BEHIND (not needed to know if you just follow whats in the RED frame)

SHAFT FLEX - SOFT STEPPING
To understand how it all works from the bottom, here is some basic shaft flex knowledge we need to know to get the point, and thats about hard or soft stepping, or 1 shaft weaker or 1 shaft stronger.

SOFT STEPPING = HIGHER LAUNCH VS STD
HARD STEPPING - LOWER LAUNCH VS STD

1 shaft softer = SS1, 2 shafts softer = SS2, 3 shafts softer SS3
1 shaft stronger = HS1, 2 shaft stronger HS2 
When flex is "standard", we call it "Strait in".

SS1 / 1 shaft softer = 1/3 of a flex weaker - X flex playes a little stronger than S+
SS2 / 2 shafts softer = 2/3 of a flex weaker - X flex playes a little softer like S+
SS3 / 3 shafts softer = 1 full flex weaker -  X flex plays like S flex

The other way
- HS1 / 1 shaft stronger = 1/3 of a flex stronger - S plays a little softer than S+
- HS2 / 2 shafts strongher = 2/3 of a flex stronger - S plays a little stronger than S+
- HS3 / 3 shafts stronger - 1 full flex - S plays like X.

THIS IS HOW SHAFT FLEX - SOFT STEPPING AND HARD STEPPING WORKS
- We simply move shafts "1 step" against softer or stiffer.
- 1 Step is equal to 1 shaft weaker or stronger (5 CPM for Constant wgt shafts)



SOFT-STEPPING INTO WEDGES AND BALL FLIGHT
- As the charts above shows us, when we use the same #9 or PW shaft into wedges, we are soft stepping and ADDING LAUNCH and that's killing spin.
Look at each club/shaft as 1 shaft softer or stronger, so you can see how wedges returns to the flex of longer irons and that way adds launch and destroy spin.
- A Dynamic Gold player who follow the classic route, and uses a #9 iron shaft of the same flex as irons in wedges, ends up with a LOB wedge who plays a shaft equal to the #5 iron as flex. No wonder it launches crazy high if you try more than partial shots.

THE DEVIL IS HIDDEN IN THE DETAILS
- When we get into wedges, hosel specs changes vs irons (BBGM goes up), and we are shortening the butt, 0.2" pr club, plus we normally have a different SW value in wedges vs IRONs. The classic set up is Irons as D2, GW as D3, and SW / LW as D5. When we plug it all into a excel sheet, where we fine calculate how each shaft model line changes into wedges, they becomesa little different depending on brand and if #9 or PW is the shortest.
KBS models with #9 as the shortest has the softest LW of all with SS4


  
THE #8 IRON SPINNER TRICK
- By taking advantage of flex and ball flight changes, where we as ideal use FULL FLEX PROGRESSION for all FULL SWING CLUBS before we turn and go softer, we "Regain" most or all of the spin lost. The issue is, shafts thats stronger than our #9 or PW is not for sale, but its them we need to extend the flex slope furter from #9 or PW. That will LOWER LAUNCH and ADD SPIN from the first club we make stronger.(WEDGES ONLY)

THE SHAFT WE CANT BUY-....BUT WE CAN
The solution where we can take ball flight down, and at the same time add spin, is called “the #8 iron spinner trick”. The term has a reference to a #8 iron shaft, but its NOT the #8 iron shaft from the iron set you play, but a #8 iron shaft from A FULL FLEX STRONGER of the same shaft model. That’s the “short cut” to a shaft with a flex and deflection close to where a dedicated GW shaft in your own shaft set would have been, but since we cant buy that shaft, this is the creative solution to get it. Its all RELATIVE to what iron shafts we play, and for short it looks like this:

WE MOVE THE STARING POINT FOR SOFT STEPPING WHO LOWERS APEX FOR ALL WEDGES
- 1 shaft stronger = 1 shaft lower launch & 1 shaft higher spin. (Moving the first SS club after #9 to after PW, or from after PW to  after GW)

- 2 shafts stronger = 2 shafts lower launch & 2 shafts higher spin etc.
- For each time we "delays" soft stepping, we reduce APEX with about 5 feets,



THE SHAFTS TO USE
 - R flex in irons, use S flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
-  R+ flex in irons, use S+ flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
-  S flex in irons, use X flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
-  X flex in irons, use TX flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
OR
-  5.0 flex in irons, use 6.0 flex #8 iron shafts for wedge - same shaft model as your irons.
-  5.5 flex in irons, use 6.5 flex #8 iron shafts for wedge - same shaft model as your irons.
-  6.0 flex in irons, use 7.0 flex #8 iron shafts for wedge - same shaft model as your irons.




THE #8 IRON SPINNER TRICK vs USING THE SHORTEST IRON SHAFT FOR WEDGE
- For sets with #9 as the shortest, we have TIGER STEPPED that club to calculate the effect of 3/8" tip trim (DG and KBS)
Changes to APEX - LAUNCH ANGLE & SPIN is based on estimated using IRON BYRON as "player" vs actual flex changes




DONT WORRY - HERE IS BRAND SPECIFIC CHARTS FOR ALL BRANDS








ALTERNATIVE 2 –  HALF FLEX MODELS
For some shaft models, we have “half flex option” like we see from KBS, RIFLE and Project X. By half flex we mean R to R+, or R+ to S, or S to S+, or 5.0 to 5.5, or 5.5 to 6.0. We need to know if the #9 or the PW is the shortest and strongest dedicated shaft option.
ONLY for “half flex models” where a dedicated PW option exist, we can use that shaft “strait in” and we have a “home run” and got the “GW shaft” we was hunting. That means if you play R flex, use a R+ dedicated PW shaft for wedge, and if you play S flex, use a S+ PW shaft for wedge etc…
If #9 is the shortest and stiffest, we have to tip trim the “half flex stronger #9” equal to 1 shaft stronger and that’s 4 to 5/8” to become our wanted “GW shaft”.



IS USING A FULL FLEX STRONGER & #8 IDENTICAL TO HALF A FLEX UP AND PW?
NO - They both fill the FLEX slot of a dedicated GW shaft, but the full flex up and #8 will be to the stronger side of a GW, with about 2 CPM , the PW shaft half a flex up, about 1 CPM to the strong side.
FOR PX and KBS we use 3/16 = 1 CPM, so a PW half a flex stronger used as GW becomes "PX 6.1" instead of PX 6.0, and if we use a full flex up and #8, we get "PX 6.2" instead of 6.0 that was dead on target.

BRAND SPECIFIC CHARTS HALF FLEX MODELS





ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS – TIGER STEPPING – TIP TRIM OF TAPER TIP SHAFTS. (TS as short hand in the charts)

Since the target is a shaft with a flex in the area of a dedicated GW shaft, and some players already has X flex irons, and of a model where no TX flex option exist, we have a alternative route where we simply tip trim a taper tip shaft to get the “GW shaft” we want. We now have to ask, is the #9 the shortest and stiffest and used for both #9 or PW (like Dynamic Gold), or does a dedicated PW shaft exist? That’s important to know, since our target is only “1 shaft stronger” than a dedicated PW shaft.

Tip trim of taper tips is quite normal, but our limitation is often only 3/8” before we meet insert issues in a taper tip hosel. For most, but not all shaft models that can be fixed with a ream job to 0.370, IF the actual shaft model has a strait parallel tip section above the “taper part”. The taper part of the tip itself is most often 6/8” long, so use a caliper and measure tip OD on that point, and do the same right below first step or where the main taper section of the shaft starts. If both points say 0.370 you are free to tip trim as much as you like without insert issues, but don’t forget to leave enough tip section for the summary of full insert depth, plus the height of the wanted ferrules.

HOW MUCH TIP TRIM IS NEEDED?
That question depends on if the shortest available iron shaft is the #9 or the PW. Parallel tip shafts has a normal tip trim of 4/8” or 0.5” from one shaft to the other, but in a set of Constant wgt shafts, we need 5/8” tip trim to go “1 shaft stronger”. So if the shaft set we play, has a dedicated PW shaft, we can start from a PW and tip trim it 4/8” to 5/8” to get a “GW shaft” who will be the same as “the #8 iron spinner trick”, only from a different direction. If the shortest and strongest iron shaft is the #9, we will need the double or 1.0 to 1.25” to get that “GW shaft”. This tip trim instruction is valid when se use a #9 or PW of the same model, and the same flex as our irons.

TUNING OPTION – 3/8” TIP TRIM
In ALL cases where we either use a full flex stronger #8 iron shaft “strait in”, or use a “half flex stronger” PW shaft strait in, we MIGHT consider to tip trim the shaft 3/8” to maximize spin. This option could be used for all 4 wedges from PW to LOB wedge. For the PW is a good idea if the #9 is the shortest and strongest. That moves us closer to the dedicated PW shaft TT don’t make anymore. For the GAP wedge either as a full flex stronger #8, or a “half flex stronger PW”, it adds even more spin and takes ball flight even further down on both full shots and partials. For the SAND and LOB wedge it should be considered since those would be soft stepped anyway, since the #8 iron spinner trick only gave us a shaft in the area as a GW shaft, and when we do like we most often does, goes 2 to 3 SW points UP from GW to SW and LOB, a tip trim of 3/8” actually only compensate for the added head weight, so its no reason to worry about feel here, the tip trimmed SW and LW will not play stronger than your GW if that GW is a #8 iron spinner “strait in”. 3/8" Tip trim on a Constant wgt shaft makes it 0.6 shafts stronger only.

GRAPHITE SHAFTS
Its no difference between using steel or graphite shafts here, the same rules applies. A full flex stronger and the #8, or half a flex stronger and the PW, to get a shaft that has a flex as close as can be to a dedicated GW shaft "strait in".

DESCENDING WEIGHT MODELS
For descending wgt models where we tip trim our self, simply tip trim “like normal” for each club shorter. Again, the rules ONLY apply if you play the same models in irons, so to use descending wgt shafts for wedges, it has to be descending wgt shafts of THAT model in your irons too. For descending weight models, you can use the same shaft flex as irons and simply tip trim for GAP. If tip trim instructions is like it is for DG, where #9 is 4.0 and PW is 4.25” IGNORE that, and use 4.50” for PW and 5.0” for GW. Before you start tip trimming, make sure there is tip section enough left for full insert plus the height of the ferrule. You can also use a full flex stronger, and use tip trim instructions for a #8 iron. (look at a half flex stronger tipped as PW, or a full flex stronger  tip trimmed as #8 if that gain some shaft weight)

PRECAUTIONS AND LIMITATIONS.
All options above is described ONLY for THE SAME MODEL SERIES as we use for irons. Since there is NO common standards for flex, this flex letters is NOT valid as compare between different shaft models. its no “short cuts” if the plan is to mix different shaft models. The only way to tell is either to have advanced club maker measure it all out, or by trial and error. DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP WITH THAT – ive sold all club maker equipment and shafts, so I cant do it for you. The same limitation goes for mixing Constant wgt and Descending wgt models, even with the same model’s name. Dynamic Gold Tapers and Dynamic Gold Parallel descending wgt is NOT the same shaft, so we cant use the short cuts or methods described above. The same goes for KBS taper and parallels, they CANT be mixed using the suggestions above. The only time we can mix Tapers and Parallels is when both is constant wgt, or both is Descending weight of the same shaft model.


TESTING DONE
- Adam C -Aka The mobile club maker (see link to video below), made 2 x 57* Sand Wedge where all specs was the same, except the shaft:
The first club was made with the classic DG S400 #9, the second with DG X100 #8
In that test, from turf, Launch came down with average 4.02* and spin went up with 1111,
or we can say spin went up with 276 rpm for each 1.0 launch when down, so the #8 iron trick will take launch down and bring spin up.


WE GO DESCENDING WEIGHT INTO WEDGES – 5 GRAMS HIGHER START WEIGHT IS BENEFICIAL
Many players is not aware of this. Even if we use the same constant wgt shaft models as our irons like DG S300 all the way to LOB, we go descending weight from our PW since the #9 is the shortest and strongest shaft in the iron set for Dynamic Gold. For sets where the PW is the shortest dedicated shaft, we go descending wgt from GW. To show you how that works, and how much we lose, Im using DG S300 / X100 as example.

Wedges is normally 2/8” shorter pr. club, and wedges most often has a BBGM (Bottom of Bore to Ground Measurement) that’s at least 3/8” higher than iron. That means we loose shaft wgt equal to that amounts as extra butt cut to get down to target play length. A DG S300 or X100 #9 iron shaft is 130 grams / 37.00” = 3.51 grams pr inch /8 = 0.44 grams for each 1/8”. That means from #9 to PW we loose 0.88 or 0.9 grams of shaft weight, and when we go further to the GW, we also loose 3 x 1/8” = 1.3 grams from a Higher BBGM (at least, some wedges even more), and as a sum that’s 3.1 grams down from #9 to GW, and another 0.9 or 4.0 grams down for the SAND, and 4.9 grams down for the LOB.



That’s why a tad higher shaft weight as starting point for wedge is nice. At least make sure you weight sort the shafts to be used before you choose what shaft to be used for what, so you can use shaft weight tolerances to even this out as best as it can be done.

Keep that in mind when we either soft step a full flex stronger #8 iron shaft, OR have the option of HALF FLEXES who gives us 5 grams higher start wgt.
For a DG S300 player, who goes X100 #8 for wedges, he will loose another 1.8 gram since a #8 is SS1 vs the standard #9, so its 0.5 more butt cut and loos of that shaft wgt down to play length. Sum weight drop is compared to the #9 iron shaft and longer. This is also the reason for why we should use DG GOLD, not the Tour issue version, since TI tends to be to the lower side of shaft wgt, GOLD sorting to the higher side of tolerances.



HALF FLEX MODELS WHERE A DEDICATED PW EXIST - GOING A FULL FLEX UP AND #8
- Here the weight drop becomes large, so the 10 gram higher start weight is almost gone at the LOB



As example, a player with PX 6.0 irons, who goes 7.0 #8 for wedges, will loose this much of the 10 gram higher start wgt.
He ends with a GW +3.4 grams up from irons, a SW 2.5 grams up from irons, and a LOB thats only 1.7 grams up from irons.

A PX 6.0 player who goes PX 6.5 PW shafts for wedges, gets a chart like this. They end very close, since one is SS2 as a start
(1 inch more but cut on a #8 vs using a PW shaft as start),
That brings the NET difference down to 0.5 grams between using 6.5 PW vs 7.0 #8 shafts.
Since wgt is flex, THIS illustrate how good both options fill the same slot, they are fully compatible on both wgt and flex.



If you wants to read some player feedback from trying this out, its many treads on this forum about it, and the 2 largest treads is probably this 2 im linking to below.

 

Our fellow WRX tech forum member Adam C – Aka the mobile club maker has made a video with a compare of DG S400 #9 iron shaft vs DG X100 #8 iron shaft.
 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[Seamus_McDuff]

What would the result be if you use shafts that have a dedicated PW and you went up a flex but used the #9 iron rather than the #8? 

[Howard_Jones]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:04 PM, Seamus_McDuff said:

What would the result be if you use shafts that have a dedicated PW and you went up a flex but used the #9 iron rather than the #8? 

Ain't that logical enough?
When we use the #8 iron spinner trick, we want a shafts strong enough to fit the slot of a dedicated  GW we cant buy, so if we use the #9 from a full flex stronger, you get a shaft that fits the slot of a dedicated SW shaft. For use in a GW that would be hard stepping once and kind of "overkill", but for a SW its "strait in", and for the LW it would be like soft stepped once or close to that.

IF you saw the chapter about TUNING OPTION, the suggestion was to tip trim 3/8" who get us close, but not all the way to a full shaft stronger for SW or LW, so if you play your SW to FULL swings, not only partials, a #9 iron shaft from a full flex stronger is absolutely a option to consider to keep ball flight down. and maximize carry and stopping power. (you gain 1.4 to 1.7 grams shaft weight that way too when we use constant wgt shafts).

Just to make sure you all can see the system, if a dedicated PW shaft exist in a full flex stronger than our irons, that PW shaft will fit the slot of a dedicated LOB wedge shaft in our iron shaft set.

With other words, its 3 times soft stepping in constant wgt shafts to become a full flex, so a X flex PW shaft is the same as a S flex LOB wedge shaft when  we have the same flex progression all the way.

Thats why the #8 iron shaft from a full flex stronger fits the slot of a GW shaft a flex weaker since thats 3 times soft stepped.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[62@Oakmont]

Howard's post needs to be pinned permanently for everyone to see and refer back to, end of story.

 

Thanks Howard for your detailed explanation and to Adam C for the testing.

Edited February 17, 2022 by 62@Oakmont

[Andygolderson]

Coming from  Adam's 8ivs7i thread and combined with my own case;

 

It sounds interesting to consider the 8i in the Gw, then 9i for 56* and Pw for 60*. Would it make sense to do so ?

 

How could we better understand the tip frequency to help match better, or I misunderstood this isn't a factor ?

 

in my example, I found this: (Strange, because C-taper apparently is butt trim only, yet the advice is for tip trimming. I read elsewhere that the 120 stiff (my situation) has a tip frequency of 6.3, yet it's outside the range for stiff)

 

How would the tip frequency be determined for each iron (8, 9, P) when cut to length of Gw, Sw, Lw ?

 

Based on the last post information to reference, I would play Gw and 56 mixed between full and partial shots, the 60* mostly partial and always half to full out of a bunker.

[Howard_Jones]

4 minutes ago, Andygolderson said:

Coming from  Adam's 8ivs7i thread and combined with my own case;

 

It sounds interesting to consider the 8i in the Gw, then 9i for 56* and Pw for 60*. Would it make sense to do so ?

 

How could we better understand the tip frequency to help match better, or I misunderstood this isn't a factor ?

 

in my example, I found this: (Strange, because C-taper apparently is butt trim only, yet the advice is for tip trimming. I read elsewhere that the 120 stiff (my situation) has a tip frequency of 6.3, yet it's outside the range for stiff)

 

How would the tip frequency be determined for each iron (8, 9, P) when cut to length of Gw, Sw, Lw ?

 

Based on the last post information to reference, I would play Gw and 56 mixed between full and partial shots, the 60* mostly partial and always half to full out of a bunker.

There is 2 models of most KBS shafts, one constant wgt, and one descending wgt.
The chart is for Descending wgt models, NOT constant wgt.

flex letters has NO common standards so simply forget them, they can only be used to move up or down in flex within the actual model, nothing else, and NEVER for compare of different model.

All clubs played to Full swing clubs should as ideal, be on the same flex progression slope, and since most of us play the GW like it is a #11 iron, its not beneficial to soft step that club, but thats what happens if we use the #9 or PW shaft for the GW too, and thats where the #8 iron spinner trick comes into it all, it gives us the "GW shaft" we cant order.....

So, when you ask if you should go stronger in SW and LOB too, its back to the same question....are they played like a full swing #12 and #13 iron where soft stepping will cause unwanted high ball flight and too low spin? Only you can answer that question

 

[Andygolderson]

13 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

There is 2 models of most KBS shafts, one constant wgt, and one descending wgt.
The chart is for Descending wgt models, NOT constant wgt.

flex letters has NO common standards so simply forget them, they can only be used to move up or down in flex within the actual model, nothing else, and NEVER for compare of different model.

All clubs played to Full swing clubs should as ideal, be on the same flex progression slope, and since most of us play the GW like it is a #11 iron, its not beneficial to soft step that club, but thats what happens if we use the #9 or PW shaft for the GW too, and thats where the #8 iron spinner trick comes into it all, it gives us the "GW shaft" we cant order.....

So, when you ask if you should go stronger in SW and LOB too, its back to the same question....are they played like a full swing #12 and #13 iron where soft stepping will cause unwanted high ball flight and too low spin? Only you can answer that question

 

aha, got it. i did indeed read your "11 iron" answer elsewhere, so i guess 8i is no brainer for the gap.

 

Like i meantion, i would plan to use the 56, i would say 60% of the time only partially. The 60* again, would be 60-70% partial shots.

 

Do you have a recommendation for me there?

[Trap Junior]

How do the tiger stepped wedges play in strong winds compared to regular set up?

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of more spin on wedge shots.  I hate seeing shots zip back when they hit the green.

[nitram]

4 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

How do the tiger stepped wedges play in strong winds compared to regular set up?

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of more spin on wedge shots.  I hate seeing shots zip back when they hit the green.

Let me ask you this. When it's windy, do you flight your wedge(s), hit a stock wedge, and/or select a lower lofted club?

 

I play where it's windy (>15 mph) more often than it's not and I've used 8-iron shafts in my wedges (50-60*) since the turn of the century. The slight, 300 (+/-) rpm increase in spin isn't going to spin a ball off the green any more than what you're replacing, but it will help in holding a firm green from a lower trajectory ball flight.

[Trap Junior]

5 hours ago, nitram said:

Let me ask you this. When it's windy, do you flight your wedge(s), hit a stock wedge, and/or select a lower lofted club?

 

I play where it's windy (>15 mph) more often than it's not and I've used 8-iron shafts in my wedges (50-60*) since the turn of the century. The slight, 300 (+/-) rpm increase in spin isn't going to spin a ball off the green any more than what you're replacing, but it will help in holding a firm green from a lower trajectory ball flight.

I have no idea how they play as I have never tried them.  I dont need more spin on wedges.   I am imagining I would have a problem into a stiff wind  spinning these back .  

[animalgolfs]

36 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

I have no idea how they play as I have never tried them.  I dont need more spin on wedges.   I am imagining I would have a problem into a stiff wind  spinning these back .  

His point - do you control the trajectory with your current set up?  

 

Can you flight your wedge play?

[DrShaftE]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:26 PM, Howard_Jones said:

Spinner shafts for wedges  - The #8 iron spinner trick

The topic has been hot for more than 10 years on the WRX, but no matter how many times I have explained “how too”, the same questions pops up again, so this tread is written as the full guide, and a reference for future use. The main chapters are written for CONSTANT wgt shafts. (Descending wgt has its own chapter below here)

BACKGROUND.
All of you should know by now, a set of irons shafts, has a progression for flex and deflection as we go shorter. The stiffest shaft in the shaft set is often the #9 or the PW. When we move further into wedges, we are “soft stepping” the same shaft, sometimes more than 4 times or more than a full flex before we get to the LOB wedge, due to using the same shaft combined with higher SW values. For many players that might be an issue for ball flight who might become too high, and spin too low with bad stopping power. Wedges works OPPOSITE of irons where the curve for spin turns about the loft area of the PW. For higher lofted clubs, Launch still goes up while spin goes down, and combined with soft stepping we lose a lot of spin that way.

THE #8 IRON SPINNER TRICK
The solution where we can take ball flight down, and at the same time add spin, is called “the #8 iron spinner trick”. The term has a reference to a #8 iron shaft, but its NOT the #8 iron shaft from the iron set you play, but a #8 iron shaft from A FULL FLEX STRONGER of the same shaft model. That’s the “short cut” to a shaft with a flex and deflection close to where a dedicated GW shaft in your own shaft set would have been, but since we cant buy that shaft, this is the creative solution to get it. Its all RELATIVE to what iron shafts we play, and for short it looks like this:

R flex in irons, use S flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
R+ flex in irons, use S+ flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
S flex in irons, use X flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
X flex in irons, use TX flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.

OR

5.0 flex in irons, use 6.0 flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
5.5 flex in irons, use 6.5 flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.
6.0 flex in irons, use 7.0 flex #8 iron shafts for wedge of the same shaft model as your irons.

ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS – TIGER STEPPING – TIP TRIM OF TAPER TIP SHAFTS.
Since the target is a shaft with a flex in the area of a dedicated GW shaft, and some players already has X flex irons, and of a model where no TX flex option exist, we have a alternative route where we simply tip trim a taper tip shaft to get the “GW shaft” we want. We now have to ask, is the #9 the shortest and stiffest and used for both #9 or PW (like Dynamic Gold), or does a dedicated PW shaft exist? That’s important to know, since our target is only “1 shaft stronger” than a dedicated PW shaft.

Tip trim of taper tips is quite normal, but our limitation is often only 3/8” before we meet insert issues in a taper tip hosel. For most, but not all shaft models that can be fixed with a ream job to 0.370, IF the actual shaft model has a strait parallel tip section above the “taper part”. The taper part of the tip itself is most often 6/8” long, so use a caliper and measure tip OD on that point, and do the same right below first step or where the main taper section of the shaft starts. If both points say 0.370 you are free to tip trim as much as you like without insert issues, but don’t forget to leave enough tip section for the summary of full insert depth, plus the height of the wanted ferrules.

HOW MUCH TIP TRIM IS NEEDED?
That question depends on if the shortest available iron shaft is the #9 or the PW. Parallel tip shafts has a normal tip trim of 4/8” or 0.5” from one shaft to the other, but in a set of Constant wgt shafts, we need 5/8” tip trim to go “1 shaft stronger”. So if the shaft set we play, has a dedicated PW shaft, we can start from a PW and tip trim it 4/8” to 5/8” to get a “GW shaft” who will be the same as “the #8 iron spinner trick”, only from a different direction. If the shortest and strongest iron shaft is the #9, we will need the double or 1.0 to 1.25” to get that “GW shaft”. This tip trim instruction is valid when se use a #9 or PW of the same model, and the same flex as our irons.

ALTERNATIVE 2 –  HALF FLEX MODELS
For some shaft models, we have “half flex option” like we see from KBS, RIFLE and Project X. By half flex we mean R to R+, or R+ to S, or S to S+, or 5.0 to 5.5, or 5.5 to 6.0. This option should be considered since many of this shaft models adds up to 10 grams shaft weight when we move a full flex, and that’s not always beneficial. A starting point for wedge that’s 5 grams higher than irons is often “just perfect”. See the chapter below – “We go descending weight into wedges.” For more info about that.

Just like the first Tiger stepping or tip trim of taper option, we need to know if the #9 or the PW is the shortest and strongest dedicated shaft option.
For “half flex models” where a dedicated PW option exist, we can use that shaft “strait in” and we have a “home run” and got the “GW shaft” we was hunting.
That means if you play R flex, use a R+ dedicated PW shaft for wedge, and if you play S flex, use a S+ PW shaft for wedge etc…
If #9 is the shortest and stiffest, we have to tip trim the “half flex stronger #9” equal to 1 shaft stronger and that’s 4 to 5/8” to become our wanted “GW shaft”.

TUNING OPTION – 3/8” TIP TRIM
In ALL cases where we either use a full flex stronger #8 iron shaft “strait in”, or use a “half flex stronger” PW shaft strait in, we MIGHT consider to tip trim the shaft 3/8” to maximize spin. This option could be used for all 4 wedges from PW to LOB wedge. For the PW is a good idea if the #9 is the shortest and strongest. That moves us closer to the dedicated PW shaft TT don’t make anymore. For the GAP wedge either as a full flex stronger #8, or a “half flex stronger PW”, it adds even more spin and takes ball flight even further down on both full shots and partials. For the SAND and LOB wedge it should be considered since those would be soft stepped anyway, since the #8 iron spinner trick only gave us a shaft in the area as a GW shaft, and when we do like we most often does, goes 2 to 3 SW points UP from GW to SW and LOB, a tip trim of 3/8” actually only compensate for the added head weight, so its no reason to worry about feel here, the tip trimmed SW and SW will not play stronger than your GW if that GW is a #8 iron spinner “strait in”.

GRAPHITE SHAFTS
Its no difference between using steel or graphite shafts here, the same rules applies. A full flex stronger and the #8, or half a flex stronger and the PW.

DESCENDING WEIGHT MODELS
For descending wgt models where we tip trim our self, simply tip trim “like normal” for each club shorter. Again, the rules ONLY apply if you play the same models in irons, so to use descending wgt shafts for wedges, it has to be descending wgt shafts of THAT model in your irons too. For descending weight models, you can either use the same shaft flex as irons and simply tip trim for GAP. If tip trim instructions is like it is for DG, where #9 is 4.0 and PW is 4.25” IGNORE that, and use 4.50” for PW and 5.0” for GW. Before you start tip trimming, make sure there is tip section enough left for full insert plus the height of the ferrule. You can also use a full flex stronger, and use tip trim instructions for a #8 iron.

PRECAUSIONS AND LIMITATIONS.
All options above is described ONLY for THE SAME MODEL SERIES as we use for irons. Since there is NO common standards for flex, this flex letters is NOT valid as compare between different shaft models. its no “short cuts” if the plan is to mix different shaft models. The only way to tell is either to have advanced club maker measure it all out, or by trial and error. DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP WITH THAT – ive sold all club maker equipment and shafts, so I cant do it for you. The same limitation goes for mixing Constant wgt and Descending wgt models, even with the same model’s name. Dynamic Gold Tapers and Dynamic Gold Parallel descending wgt is NOT the same shaft, so we cant use the short cuts or methods described above. The same goes for KBS taper and parallels, they CANT be mixed using the suggestions above. The only time we can mix Tapers and Parallels is when both is constant wgt, or both is Descending weight of the same shaft model.

WE GO DESCENDING WEIGHT INTO WEDGES – 5 GRAMS HIGHER START WEIGHT IS BENEFICIAL
Many players is not aware of this. Even if we use the same constant wgt shaft models as our irons like DG S300 all the way to LOB, we go descending weight from our PW since the #9 is the shortest and strongest shaft in the iron set for Dynamic Gold. For sets where the PW is the shortest dedicated shaft, we go descending wgt from GW. To show you how that works, and how much we lose, Im using DG S300 / X100 as example.

Wedges is normally 2/8” shorter pr. club, and wedges most often has a BBGM (Bottom of Bore to Ground Measurement) that’s at least 3/8” higher than iron. That means we loose shaft wgt equal to that amounts as extra butt cut to get down to target play length. A DG S300 or X100 #9 iron shaft is 130 grams / 37.00” = 3.51 grams pr inch /8 = 0.44 grams for each 1/8”. That means from #9 to PW we loose 0.88 or 0.9 grams of shaft weight, and when we go further to the GW, we also loose 3 x 1/8” = 1.3 grams from a Higher BBGM (at least, some wedges even more), and as a sum that’s 3.1 grams down from #9 to GW, and another 0.9 or 4.0 grams down for the SAND, and 4.9 grams down for the LOB.

That’s why a tad higher shaft weight as starting point for wedge is nice. At least make sure you weight sort the shafts to be used before you choose what shaft to be used for what, so you can use shaft weight tolerances to even this out as best as it can be done. This also means if you have a shaft model where its 10 grams up for a full flex, it will shrink to only 5 grams for the LOB wedge due to this “descending wgt” system we are forced into if we like it or not.

HOW MUCH WILL LAUNCH AND SPIN CHANGE?
That’s “personal” and not fixed values, but launch will go down, and spin will go up, compared to using the #9 or PW shaft from the iron set all the way. I never made any side by side tests with “dedicated wedge shafts” that’s on the marked today, so im not able to tell how this will be compared to those, but during those 12 years ive been advocating the #8 iron spinner trick here on Golfwrx, It must be a few thousand that has followed my advices, and I cant remember anyone that was disappointed. If you wants to read some player feedback from trying this out, its many treads on this forum about it, and the 2 largest treads is probably this 2 im linking to below.
 

 

Our fellow WRX tech forum member Adam C – Aka the mobile club maker has made a video with a compare of DG S400 #9 iron shaft vs DG X100 #8 iron shaft.
 

If the MODS of the forum wants to use this as a article on WRX, feel free to do so. This should be available for all WRX readers, and many never visit the tech forum where this subject has been up for debate for more than 10 years.

I play with X100 and want to match my 54 & 58 wedges to set. So question to @Howard_Jones if I take X100 i9/PW taper tip shafts and tip trim shafts 3/8” for both wedges (it wont make any fitting problems to hosel). Basically I get a little softer X100 to 54 and due head weight a little softer 58 compared to 54? Idea is bring launch down because I tend to launch wedges (now wedges have S300/wedge flex shafts) relatively high compared to irons. I presume that shaft change wont affect a lot to spin and it wont need to do that. 

Bottom line is that do I need to tip trim all wedge shaft similar amount 3/8” and head weight make a descending ”flex” for wedge shafts or should I tip trim 54 3/8” and 58 6/8” to make uniform flex for wedge shafts?

 

I thinking about tip trimming 54 2/8” and 58 4/8” for avoiding fitting problems to hosel. 

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, DrShaftE said:

I play with X100 and want to match my 54 & 58 wedges to set. So question to @Howard_Jones if I take X100 i9/PW taper tip shafts and tip trim shafts 3/8” for both wedges (it wont make any fitting problems to hosel). Basically I get a little softer X100 to 54 and due head weight a little softer 58 compared to 54? Idea is bring launch down because I tend to launch wedges (now wedges have S300/wedge flex shafts) relatively high compared to irons. I presume that shaft change wont affect a lot to spin and it wont need to do that. 

Bottom line is that do I need to tip trim all wedge shaft similar amount 3/8” and head weight make a descending ”flex” for wedge shafts or should I tip trim 54 3/8” and 58 6/8” to make uniform flex for wedge shafts?

 

I thinking about tip trimming 54 2/8” and 58 4/8” for avoiding fitting problems to hosel. 

Compared to using S300 #9 shaft, it will be a huge improvement, while compared to a X100 #9 strait in, its "tuning"...



5/8" is what we need to tip trim a DG X100 #9, to become the PW shaft TT dont offer anymore, and even if we did that, the 54/GW would still be SS1, PLUS its normally weakened by raising SW value 3 SWP = 3 CPM = 3/8" tip trim to compensate. With other words, 3/8" tip trim ONLY equalize the SW difference, so a DG X100 #9 tip trimmed 3/8" is still soft stepped 2 times when used as GW shaft. Thats why going DG X7 #8 iron shafts is the easy way, and no reaming of hosels is needed like it is when we want 5/8" tip trim or more..

 

[Trap Junior]

11 hours ago, animalgolfs said:

His point - do you control the trajectory with your current set up?  

 

Can you flight your wedge play?

Yes its not hard.

[DrShaftE]

44 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Compared to using S300 #9 shaft, it will be a huge improvement, while compared to a X100 #9 strait in, its "tuning"...



5/8" is what we need to tip trim a DG X100 #9, to become the PW shaft TT dont offer anymore, and even if we did that, the 54/GW would still be SS1, PLUS its normally weakened by raising SW value 3 SWP = 3 CPM = 3/8" tip trim to compensate. With other words, 3/8" tip trim ONLY equalize the SW difference, so a DG X100 #9 tip trimmed 3/8" is still soft stepped 2 times when used as GW shaft. Thats why going DG X7 #8 iron shafts is the easy way, and no reaming of hosels is needed like it is when we want 5/8" tip trim or more..

 

Basically looks like Titleist builds their sets 9 & PW exactly same shaft only but trim shaft to correct lenght (this is seen when comparing 9 and PW shaft steps). So PW plays like a little soft 9.

 

So @Howard_Jones is your suggestion to go X100 9 shafts straight in to wedges or tip shafts 3/8” (this only for not having problems with inserting hosel, I know correct tipping is 5/8” for flex wise) for both wedges or do something different?

 

idea is not to make wedges to exactly same flex slope than whole other set. Idea is to move wedges a little closer to set from S300 shafts.

 

Those stock wedge shafts are untipped 9 iron or pw shafts (depend on manufacture of shaft, if they have separate pw shaft), correct?

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, DrShaftE said:

Basically looks like Titleist builds their sets 9 & PW exactly same shaft only but trim shaft to correct lenght (this is seen when comparing 9 and PW shaft steps). So PW plays like a little soft 9.

 

So @Howard_Jones is your suggestion to go X100 9 shafts straight in to wedges or tip shafts 3/8” (this only for not having problems with inserting hosel, I know correct tipping is 5/8” for flex wise) for both wedges or do something different?

 

idea is not to make wedges to exactly same flex slope than whole other set. Idea is to move wedges a little closer to set from S300 shafts.

 

Those stock wedge shafts are untipped 9 iron or pw shafts (depend on manufacture of shaft, if they have separate pw shaft), correct?

Seriously? no i suggest you read, and make your own decisions. 

[DrShaftE]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Seriously? no i suggest you read, and make your own decisions. 

I have a clear idea what to do. I just wondering do you have experience using X100 like that and what generally works. 
 

Let see how my build works. I put some data of my findings when I get build ready and have time to test.

[IL2AZ]

If I play Nippon Modus 120X, would I use the TX flex 9 iron shaft in GW, TX flex PW iron shaft in SW and TX flex PW iron shaft in LW? 

[Seamus_McDuff]

19 minutes ago, IL2AZ said:

If I play Nippon Modus 120X, would I use the TX flex 9 iron shaft in GW, TX flex PW iron shaft in SW and TX flex PW iron shaft in LW? 

8 iron in the GW

 

Look at Howard’s chart from earlier in the thread. 

[CKaneb]

Howard, in your experience of building these types of clubs for people, have you noticed any drop off in terms of distance? Wedges aren't really clubs you swing all out on so I am curious if by going up an entire flex, people see some drop off in terms of carry numbers

Edited February 23, 2022 by CKaneb

[Pnwpingi210]

2 hours ago, CKaneb said:

Howard, in your experience of building these types of clubs for people, have you noticed any drop off in terms of distance? Wedges aren't really clubs you swing all out on so I am curious if by going up an entire flex, people see some drop off in terms of carry numbers

Not Howard, but my experience with using an 8 iron x7 shaft in my 54 and 60 degree has increase carry with equal or better stopping power.  
 

the ability to flight a wedge lower and maintain spin has been a huge help

[DrShaftE]

I changed my wedge (54 & 58) shafts from S300 to X100 (tipped 3/8”) like I planned earlier. Do I notices differencies? Datawise not so much, feelwise yes.

 

I prefer X100 stiffer/harder feel on full swings and chip shots. Club feels more accurate and precise when chipping. Full swings and 3/4 swings it feel same than all other clubs of my iron set which I prefer.

 

I use launch monitor before shaft change and after shaft change. I put datas beside each other and noticed that shaft change has affect to data very little. 

I made a test 3/4 swing and full swing:

Club head speed, ball speed, smash, AoA, spin loft and carry distance were identical (0.1-0.2 differencies)

Launch angles were 0.5-1 deg. lower with 54 3/4 & full swing and 58 3/4 swing but 58 full swing launch was actually 0.5 deg. higher. (With X100 shaft)
 

Spin was same (~40rpm higher) 3/4 swings but full swings it was ~400 rpm higher with X100 shafts.

 

Trajectory heights were 0.3-0.6 meters lower with X100. 58 full swing trajectory height was exact same than with original S300 shaft.

So I would say that (at least my test result show) changing shaft to wedge from original stock S300 to X100 3/8” tipped shaft wont effect much to flight parameters or at least not that much so it would give big changes to wedge game on course. If I consider only feel I would say that my wedges feel now better than earlier. Now when comparing chipping and full shots between PW and 54 wedge the transition is not so big feelwise than it was earlier. I also like a firmer (more accurate) feeling when chipping. 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

56 minutes ago, DrShaftE said:

I changed my wedge (54 & 58) shafts from S300 to X100 (tipped 3/8”) like I planned earlier. Do I notices differencies? Datawise not so much, feelwise yes.

 

I prefer X100 stiffer/harder feel on full swings and chip shots. Club feels more accurate and precise when chipping. Full swings and 3/4 swings it feel same than all other clubs of my iron set which I prefer.

 

I use launch monitor before shaft change and after shaft change. I put datas beside each other and noticed that shaft change has affect to data very little. 

I made a test 3/4 swing and full swing:

Club head speed, ball speed, smash, AoA, spin loft and carry distance were identical (0.1-0.2 differencies)

Launch angles were 0.5-1 deg. lower with 54 3/4 & full swing and 58 3/4 swing but 58 full swing launch was actually 0.5 deg. higher. (With X100 shaft)
 

Spin was same (~40rpm higher) 3/4 swings but full swings it was ~400 rpm higher with X100 shafts.

 

Trajectory heights were 0.3-0.6 meters lower with X100. 58 full swing trajectory height was exact same than with original S300 shaft.

So I would say that (at least my test result show) changing shaft to wedge from original stock S300 to X100 3/8” tipped shaft wont effect much to flight parameters or at least not that much so it would give big changes to wedge game on course. If I consider only feel I would say that my wedges feel now better than earlier. Now when comparing chipping and full shots between PW and 54 wedge the transition is not so big feelwise than it was earlier. I also like a firmer (more accurate) feeling when chipping. 

 

 

What shaft # X100 did you start from? that info was missing

Edited February 26, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[DrShaftE]

2 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

What shaft # X100 did you start from? that info was missing

👇

 

On 2/22/2022 at 11:36 AM, DrShaftE said:

I play with X100 and want to match my 54 & 58 wedges to set. So question to @Howard_Jones if I take X100 i9/PW taper tip shafts and tip trim shafts 3/8” for both wedges (it wont make any fitting problems to hosel). Basically I get a little softer X100 to 54 and due head weight a little softer 58 compared to 54? Idea is bring launch down because I tend to launch wedges (now wedges have S300/wedge flex shafts) relatively high compared to irons. I presume that shaft change wont affect a lot to spin and it wont need to do that. 

Bottom line is that do I need to tip trim all wedge shaft similar amount 3/8” and head weight make a descending ”flex” for wedge shafts or should I tip trim 54 3/8” and 58 6/8” to make uniform flex for wedge shafts?

 

I thinking about tip trimming 54 2/8” and 58 4/8” for avoiding fitting problems to hosel. 

9/PW because I already have X100 on my iron set. Test is comparing results between stock S300 (also 9/PW) and X100 (9/PW) shafts. I expected bigger differencies between those shafts.

[jrg75]

Just shafted a 54 and 58 using Howard's tutorial, incredible.  Play to a 7 handicap but wedges have been weakest part of my game for a long time.  Flight was always overly high and easily pushed around by wind.  Stopping power was all height and little from spin.  Mostly played stock dynamic gold wedge shafts but also tried KBS wedge shafts in the past.

 

I play KBS Tour 120 S in irons and have for a long time.  Shafted both 54 and 58 with KBS Tour 130 X 8 iron shaft.  Swing weighted to D5 using 50 grams grip and butt cut to preferred length.  Played a few rounds and these feel like a cheat code.  Those 50-100 yd shots come in low with a ton of spin, hit and check up.  Much less guessing on how wind will affect shot and how much roll out to factor in.  Thanks so much @Howard_Jones for this resource.

[third-times-a-charm]

Gonna bump this 'cause more people should try it out.

 

I play Modus 105s in irons but have always liked the stock S200 shaft found in most wedges. On a whim I saw this and decided to try it out - but with a slight change of using the Modus 120 instead of the 105 in my irons. Reason because the Modus 120 is actually a very similar profile to the S200 and also similar weight.

 

Results have been insanely positive. Accuracy is much better, feel and tempo is better and every shot is much more under control.

 

Highly recommend this trick!

[rschaner]

13 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Gonna bump this 'cause more people should try it out.

 

I play Modus 105s in irons but have always liked the stock S200 shaft found in most wedges. On a whim I saw this and decided to try it out - but with a slight change of using the Modus 120 instead of the 105 in my irons. Reason because the Modus 120 is actually a very similar profile to the S200 and also similar weight.

 

Results have been insanely positive. Accuracy is much better, feel and tempo is better and every shot is much more under control.

 

Highly recommend this trick!

I want to try this but I can't determine which shaft to try. I play modus 115x in my irons so I'm not sure do I just go 125x 8i? From what I've read I'm only going up in weight. Thanks

[third-times-a-charm]

22 minutes ago, rschaner said:

I want to try this but I can't determine which shaft to try. I play modus 115x in my irons so I'm not sure do I just go 125x 8i? From what I've read I'm only going up in weight. Thanks

In the original post by @Howard_Jones he says to use TX flex if you use X in irons.

 

The 115 doesnt have a TX flex unless there is a tour only piece? There is a TX flex 120, though. That is what I would possibly recommend but you have to want that profile as well. The modus3 line is a different feeling shaft with different profiles between the 105-130g shafts. I knew I liked the 120 due to liking the S200. YMMV.

 

Theres a few posts above this about tip-trimming X-flex shafts 3/8" which is doable on .355 taper tips to sort-of hard-step an X-flex one time. This could also potentially work for you if you want to stick with the Modus 115 profile.

[getitdaily]

14 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Gonna bump this 'cause more people should try it out.

 

I play Modus 105s in irons but have always liked the stock S200 shaft found in most wedges. On a whim I saw this and decided to try it out - but with a slight change of using the Modus 120 instead of the 105 in my irons. Reason because the Modus 120 is actually a very similar profile to the S200 and also similar weight.

 

Results have been insanely positive. Accuracy is much better, feel and tempo is better and every shot is much more under control.

 

Highly recommend this trick!

Yep. I've hit my 54 to within 5 feet more times in the last 3 months since going 8i in it than I did the last 2 years with the stock wedge shaft. Now if I could only get $taper 130x 8i shafts for my 60s...grrr

[jt2gt]

What about for graphite...would going up in weight instead of flex be the same, close or not worth trying?