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59 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

That’s the issue though I’m my opinion.  You’re taking the longer players advantage and redistributing it to the short guys. Colin would be one of the few exceptions that could survive , his iron play makes up the difference.  A lot of these guys aren’t as good at approach as the modern driver makes them look.  If they suddenly had 7 irons where they had pw or less. They’d struggle.  Some would practice and overcome. Some wouldn’t have work.  
 

this has always been my gripe.  We will never see another tiger or jack.  Why ?  Equipment evens the fields up.  It’s a putting contest now mostly.  You’ll have 7-10?guys hitting it good enough each week. And the one who putts.  Wins.      

Generally agree with you but equipment hasn’t really much to do with Tiger or Jack, those two were hands down better than everyone of their peers. Nicklaus would have been good in any era of the game past present or future. Tiger would be even better in previous eras, minus one big obvious issue. Sure equipment can bring guys up a little bit but not to that level of Tiger.

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25 minutes ago, storm319 said:


This is the what I have a problem reconciling. The object of the game is to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible within the rules, period. If there were other qualifiers, they would be stated in the rules. 
 

So if scores are not the concern, then it sounds like your gripe is with the optics of how the ball gets from tee to hole. My question is who cares if the end result is the same? 

Because the rollback crowd want to see the modern player hit the same club that old Tom Morris or Bobby Jones hit into the green........Has to be that because we still have Pro tournaments on 7000-yard courses.

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10 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Generally agree with you but equipment hasn’t really much to do with Tiger or Jack, those two were hands down better than everyone of their peers. Nicklaus would have been good in any era of the game past present or future. Tiger would be even better in previous eras, minus one big obvious issue. Sure equipment can bring guys up a little bit but not to that level of Tiger.

Right.  I agree there. I just think that today’s equipment raises the other top 20 guys up enough that the 1-2 standouts really can’t pull away.  Take rory.  
 

if we played 1995 equipment, he would likely not have to putt so well to win.  Launching a blade 2-3 iron for him is child’s play.  Is it really a coincidence that as equipment crept forward. He won less ?  I haven’t looked at the stats. But I wonder. Does he putt that much worse now than 2011 ? 

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8 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Because the rollback crowd want to see the modern player hit the same club that old Tom Morris or Bobby Jones hit into the green........Has to be that because we still have Pro tournaments on 7000-yard courses.

There’s a second element.  We who play larger level am events also would like to not see 2-3 par 4s a round Nearly be reachable.  You really need to go watch college events , or state ams etc. they hit it longer than most pga tour guys.  It’s eye opening to play with a guy who is waiting for 4/5 greens to clear on a 6800 yard course. And waiting for groups to nearly get on the green before teeing off on par 5s.  
 

like I said. They won’t take it back enough. So I hope they leave it alone.  I don’t want to see a 10 yard nerfed ball . 

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11 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The OEMs market clubs and balls to players based on pro endorsements.  Bifurcation means the marketing is trashed.  No traceability between what the pros play and what amateurs play.  No one can maintain that level of suspended disbelief.


 

Good point. I guess the flip side would be that now all the amateur 

 

Playuhs and real Sticks! can truly distinguish themselves with bonafide tour specs vs the hackers playing the toaster heads. 
 

And the OEMs could end up moving even more stuff. Like a guy who buy the tour spec, spray the ball, then end up buying another big driver head 6 months later ; )

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6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

There’s a second element.  We who play larger level am events also would like to not see 2-3 par 4s a round Nearly be reachable.  You really need to go watch college events , or state ams etc. they hit it longer than most pga tour guys.  It’s eye opening to play with a guy who is waiting for 4/5 greens to clear on a 6800 yard course. And waiting for groups to nearly get on the green before teeing off on par 5s.  
 

like I said. They won’t take it back enough. So I hope they leave it alone.  I don’t want to see a 10 yard nerfed ball . 

Nor does the PGATOUR.......The product that they're selling every week is doing just fine. Modern golf is here to stay.

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IF the club and ball regs are changed, it's going to be the dopey, everyday golfer who pays the price.  Shrink drivers to 253 cc's?  No problem for the engineers, but there is no mass market for that driver.  Make balls spin like old school balata?  Again, no problem for the engineers, but who buys them?  So, the OEM's have to run two production lines, one to punish the .1%, one more for the hoi polloi.  My clubs and balls go up in price, the paid-to-play guys get paid no matter, so what has been accomplished?  

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21 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Because the rollback crowd want to see the modern player hit the same club that old Tom Morris or Bobby Jones hit into the green........Has to be that because we still have Pro tournaments on 7000-yard courses.

 

I remember watching a tournament towards the latter part of the season a few years back and the announcers said that the longest club that DJ had hit into any par 4 all season was a 7 iron.

 

I don't have the answers in terms of how to dial it back but this seems wrong to me.

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10 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Nor does the PGATOUR.......The product that they're selling every week is doing just fine. Modern golf is here to stay.

Probably so. But doesn’t mean it’s not a shame that they let it get to this. 

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16 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

I remember watching a tournament towards the latter part of the season a few years back and the announcers said that the longest club that DJ had hit into any par 4 all season was a 7 iron.

 

I don't have the answers in terms of how to dial it back but this seems wrong to me.

Which is lofted like what club of Tiger and Jacks back in the day? Do people forget the new age lofts now? I'd be surprised if that was true though.

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16 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Which is lofted like what club of Tiger and Jacks back in the day? Do people forget the new age lofts now? I'd be surprised if that was true though.

 

I don't know how his lofts compare to Tiger and Jack, but DJ plays blades. It's not like he's playing G425 irons in power spec.

 

I found this link: https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/huggan-wasted-talent-555250

 

"How often are the leading players asked to hit more than a 7-iron to a par-4? A couple of years ago, Dustin Johnson could have answered that question by saying, “Once all season.” And that was a lone 6-iron. A staggering statistic."

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On 2/21/2022 at 12:04 PM, NJBigFish22 said:

I think equipment should be different for pros versus amateurs.  Not radically different (balls, club length, grooves).  Also for the pros course set up should be more difficult, tighter fairways, faster greens and deeper rough.  Technology has been a huge factor, not only in equipment, but also player performance.

This, IMO, is the essence of the issue - the bifurcation of pro vs. amateur. Most sports did it long ago. The standards for tennis racquets and balls are looser for casual tennis than they are for the USTA Tour. Basketballs smaller than the NBA standard are perfectly fine for casual play (last time I bought one in a sports store there were actually three different diameters to choose from). You will never see anything other than a wood bat in the MLB (in fact, anything else could probably be almost lethal to infielders), but the vast majority of "weekender" baseball and softball long ago went to aluminum or something else.

 

Golf has sort of started in that direction. It imposed new wedge rules (for instance) but gave amateurs an entire extra decade to conform. It has started experimenting with what it calls "suggested local rules" - rules that the pro Tours are encouraged to adopt, but that amateurs are not strictly required to (e.g., the new restrictions on greens-reading books). Still, however, for the most part, the extensive Rules of Golf simply are the RoG. And apply to everyone playing the sport - from the beginner that would struggle to break 120 on an Executive course, to a pro that can shoot -5 at Augusta. 

 

My opinion (having played and watched golf for decades): It is time to do this. Over the last decade and a half (or so) I seen the variance between the pros and weekenders increasing dramatically. The pros now hit the gym as much as any other pro athletes do (in the 60s and 70s it was not uncommon to see fat guys strolling down fairways smoking cigarettes). The are using advanced technology to hyper-optimize their swings, personalize their individual approaches to how they play. 

 

In short, they are no longer like us, just slightly better, they are playing a fundamentally different game than we amateurs do. Golf is a lot about tradition, and I get it. In fact, get pleasure out of playing by the same RoG that the pros play by. But have to admit that with the advances in sports science, technology and training, it may be time to sever the link. The significant increase in distances off the tee, for instance, is only a problem at the very top of the game (it certainly isn't for most of the guys I play with).

 

Personally, I don't think you need equipment changes to address it. Courses that host the PGA Tour generally prepare their courses several weeks in advance. Not difficult to positively punish bomb-and-gouge if you want to. Cut the width of the fairways in half, double the height of the rough. Courses can privilege accuracy over distance if they want to. Don't think it necessary to impose equipment changes to balls or drivers (especially those that would be universally imposed on amateurs). 

 

This may be a radical idea - but I think we need to finally go to two different RoG (as many other sports have done). One for Pro Tours, maybe college golf and feeder Tours and etc., and another RoG for the vast majority of people that play our wonderful sport. The thought that a 20 year old picking up a golf club for the first time needs to play with the same equipment restrictions and rules as Tiger, or Bryson, or Rory, is just nutso cuckoo. It doesn't invite people into the game, it almost tortures people wanting to start playing it. It creates "barriers to entry" (as we Economists say). 

 

Folks, if we want golf to our sport to be welcoming to new entrants to golf, we don't need to make it harder, simply to tamp down on the abilities of the best on the planetIt is already one of the most difficult sports to learn. 

 

Just babbling here.

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1 hour ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

I remember watching a tournament towards the latter part of the season a few years back and the announcers said that the longest club that DJ had hit into any par 4 all season was a 7 iron.

 

I don't have the answers in terms of how to dial it back but this seems wrong to me.

The reason it feels wrong to you is because that's not the game you play.....that's the professional game.

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Course set up has a big impact on distance. Guys were getting 30+ yards of roll out last weekend at Riv and probably more in phoenix the week prior. Grow out the fairways a touch, put some more water on them and limit driving distances to actual carry +10 yards, add in more penalizing rough and distance becomes less of a debate. There's other options available to wrangle in distance than limiting equipment. We've all seen the average players at our local courses, very few if any are actually overpowering courses, which means adjusting the equipment just punishes the weekend players. If the USGA and R&A are dead set on unified rules for amateurs and pro's course set up is where they're going to make the biggest impact not cutting down the max length of a driver.

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7 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

But what's going to keep the longer players from still being longer?  Unless you somehow max out the distance, and keep it reachable by everyone, it's going to be tough to put everyone on equal footing.  Every sport has superior players, and with current balls and equipment, everyone has the capability to hit the ball longer and straighter if they work at it.  But someone will always be the longest, and unless they are doing long drive competitions, they need much more than that to be consistent performers on the PGA tour.

 

I suggest you go back over all the wrx debates on the subject, everything you have written has been answered many, many times 

 

 

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6 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The OEMs market clubs and balls to players based on pro endorsements.  Bifurcation means the marketing is trashed.  No traceability between what the pros play and what amateurs play.  No one can maintain that level of suspended disbelief.

 

first off, we are only talking about the driver

 

secondly, in what other sport does the requirement of manufacturers to make money dictate the regulations?

 

perhaps a more entertaining game to watch (more than drive wedge) would mean a bigger tv deal, attendances etc.. grow the game, more equipment sold.

 

 

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8 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The OEMs market clubs and balls to players based on pro endorsements.  Bifurcation means the marketing is trashed.  No traceability between what the pros play and what amateurs play.  No one can maintain that level of suspended disbelief.

It's been at a level of suspended disbelief that isn't maintainable for years for anyone that actually bothers to pay attention. For everyone else (99% of regular golfers) all they hear is Taylormade xxx and they show up to the range showing their buddies the new driver they bought. You know, it's the same one DJ uses. Those people won't even know the rules changed for the pros. In the case of clubs, you can keep the naming structure the same just as they do now with tour only versions of equipment. Balls too for that matter. It wouldn't actually damage OEMs at all. They'll argue it will but it wouldn't 

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3 hours ago, OrangeGravy said:

It's been at a level of suspended disbelief that isn't maintainable for years for anyone that actually bothers to pay attention. For everyone else (99% of regular golfers) all they hear is Taylormade xxx and they show up to the range showing their buddies the new driver they bought. You know, it's the same one DJ uses. Those people won't even know the rules changed for the pros. In the case of clubs, you can keep the naming structure the same just as they do now with tour only versions of equipment. Balls too for that matter. It wouldn't actually damage OEMs at all. They'll argue it will but it wouldn't 

 

 

yes someone needs to tell Mercedes not to spend a few hundred million every year on formula 1. You can't buy that car..

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One of the more interesting ideas is making the ball bigger. It would be easier for ams to hit and the drag goes up as the ball moves faster. 

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I went to my first golf tournament (Tournament of Champions at the DI in Las Vegas) when I was 10 and have been watching professional golf ever since.  The professional game was more interesting to watch when it wasn't driver/sand wedge into every par 4 and par 5s were barely reachable, not Driver/ 7 iron for most of the field.  It is too much of a putting contest these days.  I find it interesting how many here complain that watching pro golf is boring but don't seem to appreciate the reason why.  The current ball designs aren't just extremely long but don't curve very much.  I favor bifurcation of the rules.  

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12 hours ago, bladehunter said:

There’s a second element.  We who play larger level am events also would like to not see 2-3 par 4s a round Nearly be reachable.  You really need to go watch college events , or state ams etc. they hit it longer than most pga tour guys.  It’s eye opening to play with a guy who is waiting for 4/5 greens to clear on a 6800 yard course. And waiting for groups to nearly get on the green before teeing off on par 5s.  
 

like I said. They won’t take it back enough. So I hope they leave it alone.  I don’t want to see a 10 yard nerfed ball . 

 

I just don't see any way around this though. Even a rollback, these guys will still be way longer than you/me and will still have that advantage...they'll just hit 9 iron into the green instead of flip wedge, while we are hitting 4 irons.

 

At the end of the day we're old now (sucks, but true). Maybe we shouldn't be competing with elite 25yr olds. I was a really good basketball player growing up , played junior college, held high school records---and i'd get my a** handed to me now at 40 years old by kids LOL. I used to be able to dunk now i can't touch the rim and i'm still in good shape.

 

Golf is like the only sport where 40-50yr olds are like "it's unfair i can't compete with elite 23yr olds" LOL.

 

I play in tournaments too, a couple of years ago i had a match against a guy who outdrove me by 60-70 yards and i'm not short. Was one of the top juniors in Quebec a few years back now is like 24-25. Really nice guy, after round i was just like "yeah....you're better than me" . Length is a part of that....but i mean, it's like boxing a guy out in basketball at my age and being like "hey man don't jump so high, it's not fair!"

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8 hours ago, Josh L. said:

Course set up has a big impact on distance. Guys were getting 30+ yards of roll out last weekend at Riv and probably more in phoenix the week prior. Grow out the fairways a touch, put some more water on them and limit driving distances to actual carry +10 yards, add in more penalizing rough and distance becomes less of a debate. There's other options available to wrangle in distance than limiting equipment. We've all seen the average players at our local courses, very few if any are actually overpowering courses, which means adjusting the equipment just punishes the weekend players. If the USGA and R&A are dead set on unified rules for amateurs and pro's course set up is where they're going to make the biggest impact not cutting down the max length of a driver.

 Absolutely

  Progressively narrow fairways after 275 yards

 

 More out of bounds on adjacent fairways

 

Coarser sand and less of it to make bunker shots harder from fairway

 

Plenty of course stuff could be done rather than changing equipment

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If Jim Nantz announces on TV that it's a 8i instead of a PW, would that make you all feel better?

 

If they "fake" the trackman numbers, would that make golf on TV more enjoyable? 

 

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Just now, RCGA said:

If Jim Nantz announces on TV that it's a 8i instead of a PW, would that make you all feel better?

 

If they "fake" the trackman numbers, would that make golf on TV more enjoyable? 

 

 

no need to fake anything. Id just like to see them use more of the 14 clubs more often

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