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How to heat bend drivers/fairway woods/hybrids with long hosels?


golferdude54
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Hello, I am interested in learning how to apply heat before bending non-titanium drivers/fairway woods/hybrids with long hosels as I play really flat clubs. 55* lie angle is not flat enough, I need to be able to bend it to 50* and conventional bending won't get that done.

 

I've done some research online on how to bend them that much, the only threads seem to be on advancedballstriking forums and it's not detailed enough, they talk about applying enough heat until it's cherry red and then try to bend them. Anyone on here with any experience on such a process? I would appreciate your feedback a lot!

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Wishon has some woods designed to be bent.  Those are the only ones on the market currently that I'd even attempt to bend.  The heating thing sounds like a really bad idea.  

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Bend golf equipment cold.  Anyone who tells you different is not a good source of information.  

 

Heating any golf equipment red hot will essentially destroy the head.  Explain why you need something bent to 50º.

 

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Why on earth would you need something that flat?!  We aren't playing baseball here.  Surely your swing isn't that flat. 

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I’m not a metallurgical expert but, if you heat the metal and let it cool you have annealed it ( it is soft and workable) the only way to get the metal back to its hardness it to send it out to be heat treated. You may want to try this on some thrift store clubs first. I’m fairly certain the chrome will be toast too

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13 hours ago, Socrates said:

 Explain why you need something bent to 50º.

+1. The effect of lie on ball trajectory is significant when there's a lot of loft, so it can be critical with short irons and wedges. The less loft there is the less effect lie has. With the loft of drivers the effect of lie is virtually nil. To see why take a wedge and watch what happens to the direction of the face when you raise or drop your hands, which changes lie. It aims right when you raise them, it aims left when you drop them. Do the same with a putter. The direction of the face doesn't change.

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7 hours ago, Billfitz said:

+1. The effect of lie on ball trajectory is significant when there's a lot of loft, so it can be critical with short irons and wedges. The less loft there is the less effect lie has. With the loft of drivers the effect of lie is virtually nil. To see why take a wedge and watch what happens to the direction of the face when you raise or drop your hands, which changes lie. It aims right when you raise them, it aims left when you drop them. Do the same with a putter. The direction of the face doesn't change.

 

It begs the question though....if the influence of lie angle on a driver is virtually nothing, then why was there a shift in the industry to make drivers a lot more upright?  Almost all drivers used to be manufactured with a 54-55* lie angle.  Then the industry shifted, where almost all drivers were 58-60*

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20 hours ago, Socrates said:

Explain why you need something bent to 50º.

 

 

Because I'm 5'10 with 6'2 wingspan and every driver/FW/hybrid is always too toe up when I set up in an ideal posture. I'm left handed too so I can't get the Wishon FWs that can be bent that Nessism mentioned. I play a 55* lie angle 4-iron at 38.75" length and the clubhead sits dead even, no toe up or heel up, when the face is square to the target; I can't remember the last time it ever pulled or hooked on me.

 

There is a picture of Ben Hogan's 1 iron sitting at 51* lie angle and the man was 5'7-5'8 with a 6 foot wingspan. He even says in his Power Golf book that the club should never sit toe up or heel up at address and this was written after his 1948 US Open and PGA Championship winning year. Jack Nicklaus had a driver that sat flat at address as well in his prime, watch the 1980 US Open video on Youtube and there is a part where it zooms up on his driver and the grooves on that face definitely weren't slanted; he went on to win it and the PGA and averaged 10th in driving distance and 13th in fairway % for the season, no one else has ever averaged that low of a combined number since. The average lie angle for a driver in that era was 53-54* at 43" length, now it is almost 60* at 45"!

 

I believe in static lie angle fitting more than dynamic, if you set up in your ideal posture with the clubface square and the sole sits dead even, your brain and body will want to set up exactly the same way every time to make that sole sit even. Hogan wrote about it in his book, Snead in his book, Byron in his book, and even Nicklaus' only coach Jack Grout who wrote his own book recommended that the sole sit even as well. That's 30+ majors and 200+ PGA Tour wins right there. 

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5 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

It begs the question though....if the influence of lie angle on a driver is virtually nothing, then why was there a shift in the industry to make drivers a lot more upright?  Almost all drivers used to be manufactured with a 54-55* lie angle.  Then the industry shifted, where almost all drivers were 58-60*

 

Exactly!!!!! My theory is it's so the amateurs who are chronic slicers (the majority of the golfing population) stop hitting it so far to the right so they can sell more drivers. Another theory is it also makes the golfers who don't slice it at all think there is something wrong with their driver so they buy new ones, and the frustration cycle continues...

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2 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

.if the influence of lie angle on a driver is virtually nothing, then why was there a shift in the industry to make drivers a lot more upright? 

To tell the truth I've never paid much attention to driver lie, not since I got curious after noticing how high the toe is on virtually every pro's driver. One would think that they should all be yanking every drive. That's when I examined how the face angle with driver shifted so little when the lie was changed by even +/-5 degrees, and since then I haven't worried about it. Taking it further, it's also when I looked at what lie does with irons, and the light bulb over my head lit up when I realized why pulls and pushes were to a great degree sourced by my hand position. Now if I start sending it right I know that I need to get my hands lower. 

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11 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

 

Exactly!!!!! My theory is it's so the amateurs who are chronic slicers (the majority of the golfing population) stop hitting it so far to the right so they can sell more drivers. Another theory is it also makes the golfers who don't slice it at all think there is something wrong with their driver so they buy new ones, and the frustration cycle continues...

For most players, whether we are conscious of it or not, the way the club sits will have an effect on our address and setup.  Point being, even though driver lie angle has a very small effect on ball flight for a robot, it can have a larger effect for a human being who is influenced by the look of the club.

 

Most of us if we had a choice, would choose to not have to look at a driver or fairway club that sits way toe up at address, simply because it is visually counterintuitive and unappealing.  Granted that many players have become used to it, because it's all they've known for the past 20 years or so

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14 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

 

Because I'm 5'10 with 6'2 wingspan and every driver/FW/hybrid is always too toe up when I set up in an ideal posture. I'm left handed too so I can't get the Wishon FWs that can be bent that Nessism mentioned. I play a 55* lie angle 4-iron at 38.75" length and the clubhead sits dead even, no toe up or heel up, when the face is square to the target; I can't remember the last time it ever pulled or hooked on me.

 

There is a picture of Ben Hogan's 1 iron sitting at 51* lie angle and the man was 5'7-5'8 with a 6 foot wingspan. He even says in his Power Golf book that the club should never sit toe up or heel up at address and this was written after his 1948 US Open and PGA Championship winning year. Jack Nicklaus had a driver that sat flat at address as well in his prime, watch the 1980 US Open video on Youtube and there is a part where it zooms up on his driver and the grooves on that face definitely weren't slanted; he went on to win it and the PGA and averaged 10th in driving distance and 13th in fairway % for the season, no one else has ever averaged that low of a combined number since. The average lie angle for a driver in that era was 53-54* at 43" length, now it is almost 60* at 45"!

 

I believe in static lie angle fitting more than dynamic, if you set up in your ideal posture with the clubface square and the sole sits dead even, your brain and body will want to set up exactly the same way every time to make that sole sit even. Hogan wrote about it in his book, Snead in his book, Byron in his book, and even Nicklaus' only coach Jack Grout who wrote his own book recommended that the sole sit even as well. That's 30+ majors and 200+ PGA Tour wins right there. 

I'm 5' 11" with a 62" wingspan.  My specs are +1/2" and 1º upright in a perfect posture.  Not sure what you are doing, but given nearly identical size, there is no way your perfect posture results in needing a 50º driver lie angle.  Ever. 

 

You aren't Hogan.

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51 minutes ago, Socrates said:

I'm 5' 11" with a 62" wingspan.  My specs are +1/2" and 1º upright in a perfect posture.  Not sure what you are doing, but given nearly identical size, there is no way your perfect posture results in needing a 50º driver lie angle.  Ever. 

 

You aren't Hogan.

 

True. If this were like a desire for 56° I could understand. 50° is wild lol

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1 hour ago, golferdude54 said:

Just wanted to resurrect this thread as an avid poster from the ABS forums released a video last month on how to heat bend a metal wood, here it is: 

 

 

https://forum.advancedballstriking.com/t/abs-my-fairway-wood/9855
https://forum.advancedballstriking.com/c/equipment/technology-and-the-titanium-age/105

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21 hours ago, ALIF said:

I knew from the start of this thread that the ABS kool aid would come up.


I couldn’t care less about ABS, I just care about having an even sole at address with all of my clubs. The whole “lie angle matters less the less loft there is” argument is only there because the manufacturers has forced us to playing upright drivers and woods over time and we can’t cold bend them as much as forged irons and wedges.

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1 hour ago, golferdude54 said:

I just care about having an even sole at address with all of my clubs.

 

Interesting.  Just curious as to why?   Most people want it level at impact, not at address.

 

1 hour ago, golferdude54 said:

 

The whole “lie angle matters less the less loft there is” argument is only there because the manufacturers has forced us to playing upright drivers and woods over time and we can’t cold bend them as much as forged irons and wedges.

 

Actually, there are other reasons it's it's not always a good argument.   The effect of lie angle being off is not directly proportional to loft.   It's actually biggest in the middle of the iron set and lowest at both the highest and the lowest lofted clubs.  In fact typically it would be lower for the wedges than for the driver.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/lie1.php

 

But the bottom line is that for most am's - the "error" of being off a degree or two is usually much less than their dispersion.   The better the player (and the smaller the dispersion) the more the lie angle will effect the accuracy and potentially be important.  But even then the error from that will be consistent so shouldn't really be that hard for most to adjust for for the standpoint of accuracy.

 

But of course, there are always outliers to every fitting generalization.  There certainly are people for which it does matter more than is typical.   Most likely for those that are more sensitive to the visual at address and how that visual can effect the setup and swing.  So nothing wrong with it if that's what works for you.

 

But I wouldn't put much faith in the "heat bending" method or look there for an answer to your problem.   From a metallurgical standpoint it really isn't a good idea.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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1 hour ago, Snowman9000 said:

I hate to see someone draw so much grief for wanting to make clubs that fit what he wants.  OP I hope you find something.

I guess it's because it is incorrect on couple of levels.  From a fitting and bending viewpoint.  I guy can believe whatever he wants, I guess.

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1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I guess it's because it is incorrect on couple of levels.  From a fitting and bending viewpoint.  I guy can believe whatever he wants, I guess.


Here is Jack Nicklaus’ driver at address in the 1980 US Open. That year he set the current PGA Tour record for lowest combined total driving at 23, 10th in distance and 13th in accuracy. In this particular tournament, he had the best total driving performance of his season, which was a stat of 19. That sure doesn’t look toe up to me.

F347414E-1C00-47DF-B025-8B86DCCDDC79.png

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6 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:


Here is Jack Nicklaus’ driver at address in the 1980 US Open. That year he set the current PGA Tour record for lowest combined total driving at 23, 10th in distance and 13th in accuracy. In this particular tournament, he had the best total driving performance of his season, which was a stat of 19. That sure doesn’t look toe up to me.

F347414E-1C00-47DF-B025-8B86DCCDDC79.png

I will guarantee you that at impact, that clubhead will be 2-3° flatter.  Also he isn't going to be impacting the ground so he has room to allow for droop.  Do that with irons and you will have toe down impact all day long.  For modern woods, the droop effect is greater due to the size of the head and the location of the CG relative to the shaft.  If the clubhead was not upright, you would have a hard time impacting the ball with a square face.   

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1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I guess it's because it is incorrect on couple of levels.  From a fitting and bending viewpoint.  I guy can believe whatever he wants, I guess.

 

If a club works well and someone like's how it looks and sets up at address, it probably doesn't really matter whether it's technically correct from a modern fitting perspective.  Assuming they've tried lots of other specs to make a good comparison.

 

The look of a club at address matters a lot more to some players than it does for others.  Especially lie angle, which can influence posture, address, and believe it or not....swing motion

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Socrates said:If the clubhead was not upright, you would have a hard time impacting the ball with a square face.   


Here is 3-time US Open champ Hale Irwin addressing a 2-iron in the fairway bunker on 16 at Pebble Beach, he hit a draw to 10 feet and won the playoff. It actually looks like the heel is slightly more up than the toe.

 

EF05275C-3194-4396-8C08-E6A04EEF3932.png.4d0a521098421bdcbc0e3f632e463cc0.png

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Looks like you're trying to emulate a certain era here. More power to you. I think clubs in general nowadays are more upright so you'll be hurting to try to find something to bend so flat. 

If @Stuart_G says it's not a good idea with current manufacturing techniques (sans Wishon who's metals are made to be bent), I'd be willing to bet it's not a good idea.

 

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46 minutes ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Looks like you're trying to emulate a certain era here. More power to you. I think clubs in general nowadays are more upright so you'll be hurting to try to find something to bend so flat. 

If @Stuart_G says it's not a good idea with current manufacturing techniques (sans Wishon who's metals are made to be bent), I'd be willing to bet it's not a good idea.

 

 

Would be tough to disregard the experience and opinion of those who have actually bent a lot of metal woods, including titanium

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4 hours ago, golferdude54 said:


Here is Jack Nicklaus’ driver at address in the 1980 US Open. That year he set the current PGA Tour record for lowest combined total driving at 23, 10th in distance and 13th in accuracy. In this particular tournament, he had the best total driving performance of his season, which was a stat of 19. That sure doesn’t look toe up to me.

F347414E-1C00-47DF-B025-8B86DCCDDC79.png

 

3 hours ago, golferdude54 said:


Here is 3-time US Open champ Hale Irwin addressing a 2-iron in the fairway bunker on 16 at Pebble Beach, he hit a draw to 10 feet and won the playoff. It actually looks like the heel is slightly more up than the toe.

 

EF05275C-3194-4396-8C08-E6A04EEF3932.png.4d0a521098421bdcbc0e3f632e463cc0.png


The problem is that for every example of a flatter angle you can find an equal and opposite example from a similarly high level player. What @Stuart_G said above and what @Socrates noted as well is what matters, lie angle at *impact*. A big reason lie angles were flatter in the old days, especially with woods, was related to length. The 58*-60* driver today at 45.75" needs only to be cut down to more "old school" lengths to play significantly flatter. It has nothing to do with slice prevention since lie angle doesn't impact curvature anyway, only start line, and only a *tiny* amount at driver lofts. 

If you want your super flat lie angle with a modern driver then start by cutting it down to 43.50" and loading up the head with weight and going from there. 

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      S.H. (Seong-hyeong) Kim WITB – 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Vincent Norrman WITB – 2022 Fortinet Championship
       
       
       
      Pull out Albums
       
       
      Kramer Hickok’s custom Cameron putter - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      New Odyssey putter covers - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Kevin Tway's new Wilson Dynapwr driver - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Rickie Fowler with new Cobra King Tour irons - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Rickie Fowler, Ryan Brehm & Doug Ghim - Cameron putters - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Ping PLD putters - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Greyson Sigg - new Mizuno JPX 923 Tour irons - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Srixon MKII X5 & X7 drivers - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Fujikura Ventus Black TR and Red TR shafts - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Tyson Alexander's custom Cameron putter - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Hideki Matsuyama's new Srixon ZX5 MKII LS driver (and putting drill) – 2022 Fortinet Championship
       
       
       
       
       
      • 10 replies
    • 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Discussion and Links
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Tuesday #1
      2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Tuesday #2
      2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ken Duke - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Jay Haas - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      David McKenzie - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Scott McCarron - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Brett Quigley - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Tim Petrovic - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Dickey Pride - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Tim O'Neal - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 26 replies

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