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How to heat bend drivers/fairway woods/hybrids with long hosels?


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10 hours ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:


If @Stuart_G says it's not a good idea with current manufacturing techniques (sans Wishon who's metals are made to be bent), I'd be willing to bet it's not a good idea.

 

 

To be fair,  I really just said the heat bending method would likely be a bad idea.  Largely because a lot of unseen things can be going on in the grain structures of the metal.

 

If someone has the right equipment,  I don't see anything wrong with cold bending.    Yes it can potentially be a high risk for those heads not designed to be bent.  But if one is willing to take that risk,  at least it's a risk for which if there is failure it will usually be pretty obvious.  

 

But realistically,  I would not expect more than a couple degrees on a head that wasn't designed to be bent.    But that's not from any personal experience.   I've never personally tried to bend a wood/hybrid (don't have the right gear for it) - just irons and putters.   That's just from my memory of Tom talking about the subject.

 

 

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KZG CH-III fairway woods were bendable, if you can find a clubmaker equipped for it.  I bent and played several of them.  I don’t know if any of their current line is bendable but you can look or call.

 

I used the wood fixtures on my MR3 loft and lie machine.  It’s really better to have custom blocks that are exact fits for each head.  If KZGs are still bendable, they will have something.

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14 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

Would be tough to disregard the experience and opinion of those who have actually bent a lot of metal woods, including titanium

Go ahead and heat bend your current model fairway with some heat and let me know how it goes for you.

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I think one of the main reasons driver heads are so upright these days is because of shaft droop at impact.  Drivers of years past were much shorter, so there was far less droop to deal with, not to mention the shafts were steel, and quite stiff in the tip.  And it goes without saying that lie angle should never be fit at address.  Dynamic position at impact is the only thing that matters.

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31 minutes ago, Nessism said:

I think one of the main reasons driver heads are so upright these days is because of shaft droop at impact.  Drivers of years past were much shorter, so there was far less droop to deal with, not to mention the shafts were steel, and quite stiff in the tip.  And it goes without saying that lie angle should never be fit at address.  Dynamic position at impact is the only thing that matters.

 

There is always the human factor and how visual differences can influence things

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3 hours ago, Nessism said:

I think one of the main reasons driver heads are so upright these days is because of shaft droop at impact.  Drivers of years past were much shorter, so there was far less droop to deal with, not to mention the shafts were steel, and quite stiff in the tip.  And it goes without saying that lie angle should never be fit at address.  Dynamic position at impact is the only thing that matters.

In addition to shaft droop, it's extremely rare for address and impact lie angles to match up, even at the tour level.  Sergio, Bryson and Vijay are probably the closest you will find.  Most tour players will have the handle 4*-8* higher at impact.  Some even higher.  When you swing the club, even at moderate speed, the force pulls club arms and the club into a straighter line than they are set at address unless you set and and swing like a Bryson or Moe Norman with little to no radial deviation in your wrists at address.

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21 hours ago, Valtiel said:

A big reason lie angles were flatter in the old days, especially with woods, was related to length. The 58*-60* driver today at 45.75" needs only to be cut down to more "old school" lengths to play significantly flatter. It has nothing to do with slice prevention since lie angle doesn't impact curvature anyway, only start line, and only a *tiny* amount at driver lofts.

 

Curious about your thoughts on this.  Assuming the swing path remains the same, how would a change in the direction that the face is pointed (lie angle change) only change start line with no influence on curvature? 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

Curious about your thoughts on this.  Assuming the swing path remains the same, how would a change in the direction that the face is pointed (lie angle change) only change start line with no influence on curvature? 

 

 

 


I think it is less of a "no influence on curvature" and more of a "the influence is so minor and multiple other variables have significantly more impact". The other variables are strong enough to the point that attempting to consider lie angle as a curvature direction variable becomes more of an exercise in academics than in practice. If we go by the Tutelman Site Tables then it takes a lie "error" of 6* to create 1* of face angle difference at typical driver loft. A 1-2* difference in face angle assuming the same path (lets say 0.0* neutral) produces a slight fade/draw (assuming a center strike, horizontal gear effects would otherwise have the potential to completely override this). That 1-2* difference in face to path is pretty consistent with pro level tight driver shot shaping, so for a lie angle error of +/- 6* to create only 1* of face angle change would be considered minor but noticeable, however most people here are talking about differences far less than 6*, hence my position that this is in the "almost imperceptibly minor category" since a one click adjustment on almost any adjustable head produces more than that 1* of face angle change, a change that is caused by a lie angle error far MORE than what we're actually talking about anyway. I hope that makes sense, hah. 

@Stuart_G should weigh in on that if possible though to make sure i'm understanding the Tutleman stuff correctly. 

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7 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


I think it is less of a "no influence on curvature" and more of a "the influence is so minor and multiple other variables have significantly more impact". The other variables are strong enough to the point that attempting to consider lie angle as a curvature direction variable becomes more of an exercise in academics than in practice. If we go by the Tutelman Site Tables then it takes a lie "error" of 6* to create 1* of face angle difference at typical driver loft. A 1-2* difference in face angle assuming the same path (lets say 0.0* neutral) produces a slight fade/draw (assuming a center strike, horizontal gear effects would otherwise have the potential to completely override this). That 1-2* difference in face to path is pretty consistent with pro level tight driver shot shaping, so for a lie angle error of +/- 6* to create only 1* of face angle change would be considered minor but noticeable, however most people here are talking about differences far less than 6*, hence my position that this is in the "almost imperceptibly minor category" since a one click adjustment on almost any adjustable head produces more than that 1* of face angle change, a change that is caused by a lie angle error far MORE than what we're actually talking about anyway. I hope that makes sense, hah. 

@Stuart_G should weigh in on that if possible though to make sure i'm understanding the Tutleman stuff correctly. 

 

I missed in your previous post, that your thought on lie angle was only referring specifically to drivers.

 

The old driver lie standard of about 54* would be near 6* flatter than many recent drivers

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Just a few things that may help with your research. 

 

 

 

I'm short and have longer arms. I have been fit for flatter lie angles. I also own 3 wishon woods that were bent about 3 or 4* flat. All 3 of them are too flat for me now. They are so flat that it have a negative effect on my impact and ballflight. My guess is these have a 54 or 55* lie angle. 

 

 

 

There is literally no way you would be successful hitting a club with a 50* lie angle. You would not be successful bending any clubs available to you to you. Even with a longer hosel most guys can't bend at all. If they can, it's juat a tiny amount. You do not need a club that flat. 

 

 

 

Most of these older guys were using shorter shafts, smaller heads, heavier clubs, and swinging at slower speeds than those older players. The amount of shaft droop is more significant with the newer clubs. From experience, I can tell you that a little toe up is fine. A lot bothers me aswell. 

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6 hours ago, Valtiel said:


@Stuart_G should weigh in on that if possible though to make sure i'm understanding the Tutleman stuff correctly. 

 

 

Sorry, I don't think you are.  Although in all fairness - Tutelman's page is leaving out the details of a lot of the steps.   By my calcs - how much of the total offline error comes from curvature and how much comes from the face angle error will vary based on the total distance.   The greater the total distance, the more that is added to the curvature error.    For the driver, the curvature error will be by far more dominate than the directional error.  But for the wedge it will be the opposite.  For the 6i they are about equal.

 

Here is my version of Tutelman's chart with two new columns to break down the total error into the separate curvature and directional parts.

 

FYI that's assuming Tutelman's curvature calcs and total distance errors are correct.  He doesn't give enough info to validate it directly.

 

 

 

 

Capture.PNG

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On 9/21/2022 at 2:23 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Sorry, I don't think you are.  Although in all fairness - Tutelman's page is leaving out the details of a lot of the steps.   By my calcs - how much of the total offline error comes from curvature and how much comes from the face angle error will vary based on the total distance.   The greater the total distance, the more that is added to the curvature error.    For the driver, the curvature error will be by far more dominate than the directional error.  But for the wedge it will be the opposite.  For the 6i they are about equal.

 

Here is my version of Tutelman's chart with two new columns to break down the total error into the separate curvature and directional parts.

 

FYI that's assuming Tutelman's curvature calcs and total distance errors are correct.  He doesn't give enough info to validate it directly.

 

 

 

 

Capture.PNG


I was really only concerned about the face angle amount though per degree of lie angle, not any of the total offline estimations or anything like that. Does 6* of lie error account for 1* of face angle change for a 10* driver?

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39 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


I was really only concerned about the face angle amount though per degree of lie angle, not any of the total offline estimations or anything like that.

 

On 9/20/2022 at 10:30 PM, Valtiel said:


I think it is less of a "no influence on curvature" and more of a "the influence is so minor and multiple other variables have significantly more impact".

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things - but If you want to evaluate the significance of the curvature - then I'd think you'd need to look at more than just the directional error.

 

But the 6* lie -> 1*  numbers in Tutelman's sight is the start line error.  That's not exactly the same thing as a face angle error because it's from a tilted d-plane - not an actual change of face angle.  

 

I'm guessing here at your thought process - so could be wrong - but it means you can't conclude that the curvature is not going to be significant because a face angle deviation of 1* does not typically produce a significant curvature.    May not be exact - but better to think of that 6* lie angle error as an additional 6* tilt in the spin axis than as a 1* face angle error.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things - but If you want to evaluate the significance of the curvature - then I'd think you'd need to look at more than just the directional error.

 

But the 6* lie -> 1*  numbers in Tutelman's sight is the start line error.  That's not exactly the same thing as a face angle error because it's from a tilted d-plane - not an actual change of face angle.  

 

I'm guessing here at your thought process - so could be wrong - but it means you can't conclude that the curvature is not going to be significant because a face angle deviation of 1* does not typically produce a significant curvature.

 

 

 

 


That is what I was getting at, yeah. If the tilted D-plane that results from the lie angle error could be converted to an equivalent face angle in terms of impact then it would be easy to rank where lie angle falls with regards to capacity to change flight. And if it takes +/- 6* of lie angle change to create an equivalent of ~1* of face angle then it would rank pretty much at the bottom. 

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1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things - but If you want to evaluate the significance of the curvature - then I'd think you'd need to look at more than just the directional error.

 

But the 6* lie -> 1*  numbers in Tutelman's sight is the start line error.  That's not exactly the same thing as a face angle error because it's from a tilted d-plane - not an actual change of face angle.  

 

I'm guessing here at your thought process - so could be wrong - but it means you can't conclude that the curvature is not going to be significant because a face angle deviation of 1* does not typically produce a significant curvature.    May not be exact - but better to think of that 6* lie angle error as an additional 6* tilt in the spin axis than as a 1* face angle error.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:


That is what I was getting at, yeah. If the tilted D-plane that results from the lie angle error could be converted to an equivalent face angle in terms of impact then it would be easy to rank where lie angle falls with regards to capacity to change flight. And if it takes +/- 6* of lie angle change to create an equivalent of ~1* of face angle then it would rank pretty much at the bottom. 

I think, while you two are on a theoretical discussion about face angle, you might be forgetting the interaction of the club with the turf when it comes to irons.  You start getting real toe-down issues that are going to affect the clubface at impact because the toe is going to impact the ground at or prior to impact creating some accentuated (bad) results.  IMO.  

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14 minutes ago, Socrates said:

 

I think, while you two are on a theoretical discussion about face angle, you might be forgetting the interaction of the club with the turf when it comes to irons.  You start getting real toe-down issues that are going to affect the clubface at impact because the toe is going to impact the ground at or prior to impact creating some accentuated (bad) results.  IMO.  

 

Just because we're discussing the details of one aspect of the problem doesn't mean we're forgetting any other aspect.

 

For most it's just usually not going to be an issue for a degree or two thanks to the curvature on the bottom of the sole.   Real world play demands being able to play off of different lies so the heads are designed to be usable even when the head orientation relative to the ground is not.  It takes skill, but it's still possible to get good impact even when hitting off relatively severe slopes.   So it doesn't tend to be the more important concern.

 

Now yes, as the lie angle error increases to larger values, it certainly can be an issue for some.  But it's not something that can be calculated or determined at what point that will start to happen or what the effect will be.  It's just one more reason to make sure the lie angles are fit for impact and not for address.   I also believe the face impact patterns will tend to shift first before ground interaction problems start to crop up - and that's not difficult to monitor either.

Edited by Stuart_G
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8 hours ago, Socrates said:

 

I think, while you two are on a theoretical discussion about face angle, you might be forgetting the interaction of the club with the turf when it comes to irons.  You start getting real toe-down issues that are going to affect the clubface at impact because the toe is going to impact the ground at or prior to impact creating some accentuated (bad) results.  IMO.  


Understood, i'm merely talking about drivers/woods here though. Irons are a different can of worms with a greater potential for both lie angle error related directional problems as well as the turf interaction issues, no disagreements there. 

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