Tee time policy / perspectives

[mshills]

One observation, and note I am not currently a member at this or any other club. I would be frustrated if my membership involved a scramble to make tee times, or worse, required me to write a bot to book my tee time. Now, the reason for the difficulty in booking times would determine if it was a minor annoyance which is no big thing, something to raise at the club that could be resolved, or worst case a terminal problem and reason to leave. 

 

All else equal, an ideal setup for me when I am ready to join a club again is the no tee time model. 

[rogolf]

I play at a semi-private club.  Male and female pay the same dues.  There are no senior rates, but are intermediate rates for younger folks, based on ages, and a "restricted" rate that can only play Monday thru Friday.  All of these members have equal booking rights for tee times.  Members can book seven days in advance, green fee players can book six days in advance (approval for out of town group green fees can be booked only through the general manager).  We use Tee-on for booking times and it begins seven days in advance, two hours before the first available tee time.  We do have different "groups" or "leagues" that have reserved tee times - ladies day (Tues morning), senior men (1-2 hours on Wednesday morning), afternoon ladies (a couple hours Wednesday afternoon), senior ladies (an hour Thursday morning) and Men's Night (after 10 AM on Thursdays).  As members, we all respect each of those "blocked" times.

I play in several sub-groups - Mon, Tues, Fri, Sat) and we all try to book appropriate times online when the booking time opens.  We don't complain if we don't get consecutive tee times, but our success rate is very high.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

So us seniors don’t have the right to play weekends? Get out of here!

 

We recently went through the same issue at my club which is corporate owned, not member owned. We had various groups that had blocked times to the point where most mornings were practically full before the time opened up online.  Many newer members complained…and rightfully so.  The whole “paid a higher initiation” idea is ridiculous.  The prices of entry to privates here in the US vary with the market.  With Covid golf is booming and prices are up. This follows a lull where entry was priced lower.  It means nothing to member status. Period.

It was decided by management that only the Tuesday morning ladies and Wednesday morning mens groups would be blocked. All others are open to all members.  We use ForeTees and at 6:30am 8 days in advance the tee sheet opens online. Yes there was a ton of whining initially even though it’s certainly hard to argue that it’s not “fair”.  Six months later it is a non issue.  All groups are getting the same times, pretty much, that they always did. They just have to get up in the morning 8 days in advance and have enough guys making times for their respective group. We did have an issue with some tech savvy guys gaming the system and creating a computer program to get the times so now we have to do the bot fighting thing to get times. But it’s all worked out.

 

 

 

Nobody is saying no seniors on the weekend.  Every group like this I’ve ever seen is open to more players.  No matter the age.  What is a problem though is when folks just want to take over things that have been an understood compromise for a long time.   How would it be if a group complained and tried to take the ladies aux Tuesday morning times ? I see this as the same exact thing.  
 

Thank you for bringing up the weekday groups. I was just about to ask why they got preferential treatment ?  
 

this is the issue we working guys have.  Why is the Saturday morning comp not covered same as the ladies and seniors during the week ? 

Edited February 28, 2022 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I play at a semi-private club.  Male and female pay the same dues.  There are no senior rates, but are intermediate rates for younger folks, based on ages, and a "restricted" rate that can only play Monday thru Friday.  All of these members have equal booking rights for tee times.  Members can book seven days in advance, green fee players can book six days in advance (approval for out of town group green fees can be booked only through the general manager).  We use Tee-on for booking times and it begins seven days in advance, two hours before the first available tee time.  We do have different "groups" or "leagues" that have reserved tee times - ladies day (Tues morning), senior men (1-2 hours on Wednesday morning), afternoon ladies (a couple hours Wednesday afternoon), senior ladies (an hour Thursday morning) and Men's Night (after 10 AM on Thursdays).  As members, we all respect each of those "blocked" times.

I play in several sub-groups - Mon, Tues, Fri, Sat) and we all try to book appropriate times online when the booking time opens.  We don't complain if we don't get consecutive tee times, but our success rate is very high.

Same question.  Why is the Saturday morning group reserving a time in perpetuity not the same as your weekday league? 

[david.c.w]

We have had (still have) this issue since March 2020.  Private, member owned club.  None of these games are club sponsored.

 

Some important points pre-covid:

• We did not have an online tee sheet (call the shop)
• Saturday and Sunday mornings were reserved by submitting a card with a time request, and the pro shop handled it
• Preset groups had to have an opening after 3 consecutive tee times (9:00, 9:10, 9:20, open, 9:30, 9:40)
• The biggest group never got more than 5 tee times in total

Like everyone else, during peak Covid times the tee sheet was jammed jammed jammed.  At around the same time we went to online tee times, and people would see that blocks of prime times were greyed out.  Now the groups were not a change from before, but with the card request system, the pro shop handled it and no one really knew and no one really cared.  But the double whammy of 2x demand and exposing the time blocks threw everyone into a tizzy.

 

Lots of back and forth and the board and golf committed agreed on the following:

• Max group size is 4 tee times (no gap required)
• Each group cannot reserve their time one week a month
• Each group has to be inclusive
• Each group posts their game/time/tee/money info on the website

Generally speaking it is working out.  Demand has dropped and now things are better, but we are still super busy.

 

Saturdays are OK.  The 5 man wolf groups go out at 8:00, with a few openings in front of them.  The old guy group goes off at 10:00 to 10:30.  Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday are basically non-issue.

 

The hard day is Friday.  We have huge demand for Friday afternoon golf.  There is a HUGE group of guys who start at 12:00 and take their 4 times.  Then they have the rest of their army awake at 7:00 the previous Friday to get the times in front and behind their block.  I will say these guys are respectful and give back times they don't use, but Friday afternoon is prime time, and when it gets dark before 6:00 in the winter there are only 3 or 4 times that are open for a really big membership.  This is generally the only block that is still causing some grief.

 

We have a big, active golf membership, and things are generally OK now that some of the peak demand has gone away.  I am not in a group, and we get our 1:40 and 1:50 Friday times by waking up and making sure we are there when the website opens.  Part of me is cranky that a bunch of old retirees with no job cant be bothered to do what everyone else has to do, and part of me has accepted that history and tradition should be respected.  

 

At the end of the day, if someone at our club wants to play golf, all they have to do is be ready to make a tee time when they open.  You might not get 8:00 on Saturday, but you can get 7:50 or 8:40 if you make a nominal effort.

 

Now don't get me started on when the online system crashes or something does not work.....

 

 

 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Same question.  Why is the Saturday morning group reserving a time in perpetuity not the same as your weekday league? 

I don't think that I said our Saturday group had any preset reservations, it does not.  It is the same procedure as for every other day - go online at the first booking time and take our chances.  Our "system" is that four players are trying to book 7:32 and a different four players are trying to book 8;00 etc.  If a player doesn't get the tee time expected, book the next closest that is available.  We've been quite successful when there 30 members trying to book times.  If other members have booked nearby times, we're quite prepared to trade times, which is not done through the golf shop, but privately. 

[bladehunter]

26 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I don't think that I said our Saturday group had any preset reservations, it does not.  It is the same procedure as for every other day - go online at the first booking time and take our chances.  Our "system" is that four players are trying to book 7:32 and a different four players are trying to book 8;00 etc.  If a player doesn't get the tee time expected, book the next closest that is available.  We've been quite successful when there 30 members trying to book times.  If other members have booked nearby times, we're quite prepared to trade times, which is not done through the golf shop, but privately. 

I think we misunderstood each other. I’m speaking to the idea that folks have issues with groups of members blocking Saturday morning times every week for years.    The folks commenting on that negatively seem to be ok with mens leagues. , senior or ladies groups doing the same during the week days.  
 

You mentioned that your club has blocked blocks of times for the weekdays , right ?  I guess I assumed they didn’t allow those same blocks for Saturday morning.  If they do , no issue. If they don’t , why not ? 

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I think we misunderstood each other. I’m speaking to the idea that folks have issues with groups of members blocking Saturday morning times every week for years.    The folks commenting on that negatively seem to be ok with mens leagues. , senior or ladies groups doing the same during the week days.  
 

You mentioned that your club has blocked blocks of times for the weekdays , right ?  I guess I assumed they didn’t allow those same blocks for Saturday morning.  If they do , no issue. If they don’t , why not ? 

Just to be clear, there are no blocked or reserved tee times for any groups on Saturday or Sunday mornings, or any other time on Saturdays or Sundays.  Those days and tee times are available to all members and green fee players (although members can book one day earlier than green fee players, as indicated earlier).

Why not? Because all eligible members should be allowed to book tee times for those days - we all paid the same annual dues.

Edited February 28, 2022 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Just to be clear, there are no blocked or reserved tee times for any groups on Saturday or Sunday mornings, or any other time on Saturdays or Sundays.  Those days and tee times are available to all members and green fee players (although members can book one day earlier than green fee players, as indicated earlier).

Gotcha.  Would  you have a problem with a group of say 20-28 players having a set time to play every Saturday morning ? 

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Gotcha.  Would  you have a problem with a group of say 20-28 players having a set time to play every Saturday morning ? 

Absolutely would have a problem with that!   What entitles them to that privilege?

Some have asked, and been correctly refused.

Edited February 28, 2022 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

Absolutely would have a problem with that!   What entitles them to that privilege?

Bingo.    What entitles anyone to the privilege of a set time for clusters of groups to play at the same time weekly ?  Like say your above mentioned teusday morning ladies day. Or the seniors 2 hour block on Wednesday mornings ? 

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bingo.    What entitles anyone to the privilege of a set time for clusters of groups to play at the same time weekly ?  Like say your above mentioned teusday morning ladies day. Or the seniors 2 hour block on Wednesday mornings ? 

In our club, we respect each other and act accordingly.  Some might call it tradition.

Edited February 28, 2022 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

Just now, rogolf said:

In our club, we respect each other and act accordingly.

Yes sir.  That’s exactly what I’d be asking for. The same courtesy given to the other members.     Some folks can only play on weekends. Some can play any day. Isn’t it against what you just said you stood for to take issue with that ? 
 

especially when the group type I’m talking about is more inclusive.  our groups on Saturday 100 % have never left a person out who showed up to play.  Even if it means a 5 some in their middle which we police up to speed , or breaking Up preferred pairings for the week to accommodate the new person/s. 
 

Show up to senior Wednesday under a certain age. Not let in. Show up to ladies day. No play as a guy.  Rightfully so. But be a middle aged dad who works a full time job  , you’re crap out of luck.   

[rogolf]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yes sir.  That’s exactly what I’d be asking for. The same courtesy given to the other members.     Some folks can only play on weekends. Some can play any day. Isn’t it against what you just said you stood for to take issue with that ? 
 

especially when the group type I’m talking about is more inclusive.  our groups on Saturday 100 % have never left a person out who showed up to play.  Even if it means a 5 some in their middle which we police up to speed , or breaking Up preferred pairings for the week to accommodate the new person/s. 
 

Show up to senior Wednesday under a certain age. Not let in. Show up to ladies day. No play as a guy.  Rightfully so. But be a middle aged dad who works a full time job  , you’re crap out of luck.   

Weekend reserved blocks at our club wont' happen for any groups.  The tee times are all available for all eligible members. 

Middle-aged dads (or moms) working full time jobs have to make decisions that fit their circumstances. (Please, no whining.)

And we do not permit 5 somes - somebody may have to go home without a game.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Weekend reserved blocks at our club wont' happen for any groups.  The tee times are all available for all eligible members. 

Middle-aged dads (or moms) working full time jobs have to make decisions that fit their circumstances. (Please, no whining.)

 

Lol.  No amount of mental gymnastics will make this make logical sense.  If I were at a club that wouldn’t guarantee me 3-4 times together somewhere on the weekend ( I’d compromise on time of day )  I’d absolutely show up with groups to their weekday blocked ladies and senior  times and make issue of being turned away. That’s walking a very thin line that likely won’t hold up .   Not to mention the hypocritical aspect that’s glaring to anyone who pays attention. It clearly shows which members actually get the preferential treatment.  The squeaky ones who are frequent fliers.  
 

and I agree. Please no whining 
 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by bladehunter

[rogolf]

It's about mutual respect, and it works very well at our club.

If you (a male) were to show up on Tuesday morning (ladies day) and insist on a tee time, you'd be rightfully and politely refused.  Same as a female that wanted a tee time on Thursday after 10 AM.  As said, it's about respect for the club policies, and for each other, by all members.  Maybe our club and its policies/practices are not for you?  That's your choice when/if you choose to join.

[bladehunter]

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

It's about mutual respect, and it works very well at our club.

If you (a male) were to show up on Tuesday morning (ladies day) and insist on a tee time, you'd be rightfully and politely refused.  Same as a female that wanted a tee time on Thursday after 10 AM.  As said, it's about respect for the club policies, and for each other, by all members.  Maybe our club and its policies/practices are not for you?  That's your choice when/if you choose to join.

Well now that’s where we can agree. If I were new id ask this before joining.  If it was a no , no problem. I won’t join. I inherited this game ( not just me but I’m one of the ones ) from guys who are no longer alive.  It’s been blocked 20 years at least. For someone to come in and change it , and not unblock the weekday times Would be wrong.  What you’re describing isn’t mutual respect. It seems very one sided to me. 
 

 

side note.  No ladies after 10 am ?  I don’t even know what to say to that.   Seems untenable in todays world. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by bladehunter

[rogolf]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Well now that’s where we can agree. If I were new id ask this before joining.  If it was a no , no problem. I won’t join. I inherited this game ( not just me but I’m one of the ones ) from guys who are no longer alive.  It’s been blocked 20 years at least. For someone to come in and change it , and not unblock the weekday times Would be wrong.  What you’re describing isn’t mutual respect. It seems very one sided to me. 
 

 

side note.  No ladies after 10 am ?  I don’t even know what to say to that.   Seems untenable in todays world. 

You didn't read the whole sentence - no ladies after 10 AM on Thursday, which is men's day.

As said previously, mutual respect is expected and appreciated.

Sounds like you would not join or enjoy being a member at our semi-private club, but it would be by your choice(s).

And, no whining!

Edited February 28, 2022 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

You didn't read the whole sentence - no ladies after 10 AM on Thursday, which is men's day.

As said previously, mutual respect is expected and appreciated.

Sounds like you would not enjoy being a member at our semi-private club, but it would be by your choice(s).

And, no whining!

Lol. I did read it. Just didn’t quote.  You’re not describing mutual respect.  
 

pointing out discrepancies in treatment  involving equal status members ,  isn’t whining.   But if it is.  Then so is ignoring the obvious issues , by deflection or dismissal.  So please don’t whine about the whining.  
 

 

all in good nature I hope you know.  I have no real issue with what is done during the week. So long as a small spot for me was left during the weekends.   That’s my issue. Folks want their cake , and eat it too.  Having the ability to plan around a set tee time , is essential for busy schedules.  Folks who don’t have a busy schedule would be nice to make allowances somewhere inside their huge allotment of access to the course.  If they don’t want to. That’s their right as a person. But you can’t also claim “ mutual respect “ if you're not extending any. 

[rogolf]

I'm talking about mutual respect amongst equal members at our club, and its "leagues", which may be based on tradition, age and gender.

Wrt to the weekends, I play in a Saturday morning group, and, using the tee time booking process available to all members, we have been able to consistently obtain tee times between 730 and 930 AM, without any guaranteed times, and we are each only able to book one tee time online.  It's about planning, diligence and perseverance, nothing else.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Bingo.    What entitles anyone to the privilege of a set time for clusters of groups to play at the same time weekly ?  Like say your above mentioned teusday morning ladies day. Or the seniors 2 hour block on Wednesday mornings ? 

 

The way I see it that is a completely different thing. On Ladies Day any lady may play on those tee times. Besides blocking a Tuesday morning is something totally different than blocking a Saturday morning, wouldn't you agree?

[Itsjustagame]

I have been a member at a club where there is a blocked number of tee times every Saturday and Sunday morning at 7:00 AM for a money game.

While I do understand the equity problem for other memebrs, by and large these money game players are the same people who play in all the club tournaments. As they finish their Saturday/Sunday game they hang around in the club house and keep the restuarant/bar busy.

Without this group there would be virually no one playing club events and no one in the club house on weekend mornings. 

The games are open to anyone, and you can play any tee box. Women are welcome.

Gross and net prizes are awarded and a closest to the pin.

However, the vast majority of club members do not want to play "competitive" golf - even when the entry fee is just $7.

This group of golfers is valuable to the club so they allow the block of times.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Itsjustagame

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The way I see it that is a completely different thing. On Ladies Day any lady may play on those tee times. Besides blocking a Tuesday morning is something totally different than blocking a Saturday morning, wouldn't you agree?

Only difference is the day of the week.  What other difference is there ? 

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, rogolf said:

I'm talking about mutual respect amongst equal members at our club, and its "leagues", which may be based on tradition, age and gender.

Wrt to the weekends, I play in a Saturday morning group, and, using the tee time booking process available to all members, we have been able to consistently obtain tee times between 730 and 930 AM, without any guaranteed times, and we are each only able to book one tee time online.  It's about planning, diligence and perseverance, nothing else.

Mutual means common amongst two or more parties.    Who are the seniors and the ladies reciprocating to ? 
 

im simply pointing out that there are groups who get more bang for their membership buck.  And it’s not the Saturday morning regulars.  You should appreciate these guys too.  They help make sure you have a place to play . Some clubs couldn’t survive on seniors and ladies dues alone.  

[mshills]

Some added thoughts, am sure some will agree and others will disagree. 
 

Weekend morning tee times at most clubs have greater value than say, Wednesday noon tee times. I completely understand both sides of the tee-time-block issue, but I do get slightly uncomfortable with a standing block on a Saturday morning because of the higher demand for those times across the broader membership. 

A organized mens LEAGUE and a ladies LEAGUE and a senior LEAGUE can be exclusionary I guess, but I think I saw a very different wording earlier on when women cannot play, and that is no good at all. Truthfully, I’m not really so supportive of a mens league. If a woman has the exact same membership and maintains a GHIN, I think “sorry, this is a mens league” is not acceptable. But that is a different thread topic!
 

Official tiered memberships with increasing access is totally appropriate. Junior —->Young Professional —>Full. 
 

A public access course that sells memberships has a very different set of issues and several additional dimensions to consider. 
 

 

[LeoLeo99]

A block of tee times on Thursday for senior men is ok, a block of tee times on Tuesday for ladies is ok.  A block of tee times on Saturday for the competitive players is not cool.  Is it that the exclusion is not based on age or gender that is the problem or is it the day of the week or skill level? 

 

 

[bladehunter]

50 minutes ago, mshills said:

Some added thoughts, am sure some will agree and others will disagree. 
 

Weekend morning tee times at most clubs have greater value than say, Wednesday noon tee times. I completely understand both sides of the tee-time-block issue, but I do get slightly uncomfortable with a standing block on a Saturday morning because of the higher demand for those times across the broader membership. 

A organized mens LEAGUE and a ladies LEAGUE and a senior LEAGUE can be exclusionary I guess, but I think I saw a very different wording earlier on when women cannot play, and that is no good at all. Truthfully, I’m not really so supportive of a mens league. If a woman has the exact same membership and maintains a GHIN, I think “sorry, this is a mens league” is not acceptable. But that is a different thread topic!
 

Official tiered memberships with increasing access is totally appropriate. Junior —->Young Professional —>Full. 
 

A public access course that sells memberships has a very different set of issues and several additional dimensions to consider. 
 

 

I do see that side. But it begs this question.  WHY is the Saturday time worth more ? 
 

I’d venture a guess that it’s due to folks who can’t play all week long joining in on the demand pool.  Which is my point.  If Those who don’t have any weekday restrictions want to claim “ mutual respect “ they should show it on Saturday and Sunday.  By showing  the other side of the coin a day to play. 
 

but.  I realize the actual truth here.  In reality the seniors believe the club is theirs and they allow others to join as a courtesy.  So what they’re saying is “ show us some respect “.  

[denkea]

12 hours ago, mshills said:

when I am ready to join a club again is the no tee time model

I used to belong to a club like that.  It was OK until you show up to play and there is an hour and half wait on the first tee.  Oh and don't pull your cart out of line.  You loose your spot. 

[third-times-a-charm]

Well I thought our scheduling was a shitshow but after reading this I feel slightly better.

 

Some of these ideas of different member levels being treated differently and various group make-ups getting different treatment is insane.

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

A block of tee times on Thursday for senior men is ok, a block of tee times on Tuesday for ladies is ok.  A block of tee times on Saturday for the competitive players is not cool.  Is it that the exclusion is not based on age or gender that is the problem or is it the day of the week or skill level? 

 

 

I assume that its due to being a Saturday and the demand for weekend tee times is 3x as much as weekdays.