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57 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

If Norman had "legal scholars" then why did he himself pen  an amateurish legal threat to Monahan? It was laughable and resembled a gang threat written with spray paint in a rivals turf. 🙂

 

Then of course what's wrong with another league? Normally nothing, especially if it creates opportunities for those in other markets that wouldn't normally have a chance to play on any tour. However the SGL is not that at all. It's a league funded by Saudi money to buy pawns to whitewash their human rights atrocities. A government that not only turned a blind eye, but also funded radical preachers. Preachers that taught death to the America and convinced radicals to kill over over 3,000 innocent people on American soil. We should never forget and frankly it's disgusting that some people have been blinded by dollar signs and have forgotten. 


I don’t disagree with much of what you’re saying and I have no idea what Norman penned to Monahan but the point remains, why can’t guys play in both when they’ve been exempted for other events in the past? Doesn’t make sense to me but I’m just a lowly pilot with little knowledge outside a cockpit. I seriously doubt Norman and his organization haven’t consulted with high priced lawyers either. 

 

Raising the morality issue about the Saudis would be quite hypocritical for the Tour. The Saudis are neck deep in professional football (soccer) and Formula 1 racing as well as many other sports. The Tours own sponsors are heavily invested in those sports and other events the Saudis are in. It would seem rather disingenuous to use that as a factor when golfs own sponsors are already partners with them. 

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8 hours ago, macnewma said:

I spoke to a couple of well connected friends (agents and tour reps) and got some more stuff on Phil.

 

So Phil isn't banned. Technically. The Tour has basically communicated to Phil's team that if Phil attempts to enter a tour event then his entrance application will be rejected. This is currently indefinite with no specific method or steps for Phil to earn his way back on. They will likely hold this over his head until he comes out with a real apology and outright rejects the SGL.

 

The issue, not completely confirmed, is that Phil, unlike the other 3, has already entered into a contract with LIV. I don't have any information on the details of this contract, but DJ, Bryson and Koepka had signed nothing. They may have been close, but it was just heavy flirting.

 

Concerning Augusta, he will not being playing there this year. The Masters is a bit opaque about their exemptions and their ability to revoke entrance (Phil obviously qualifies with his win at Kiawah last year). Similar to the PGA Tour, Augusta has basically told Phil's team he isn't welcome so don't try to show up.

Phil's issues are also more extensive than just SGL/LIV the Shipnuck quotes etc. He isn't "broke" but he isn't in great shape. His marriage is on the rocks as Amy caught him again. His gambling and spending have eaten into their finances so badly that a divorce would destroy him. Hence the likely $25-100 million up front from the Saudis with an equity stake going forward.

Phil also burnt a couple of his major sponsors prior to the Shipnuck quotes. I won't go into details but his behavior was unacceptable and said sponsors were looking for a way out. His behavior has been rather erratic for the past year or so and my contacts couldn't explain it. Almost as though he has a drug or drinking problem but they didn't think it was either. Anyway, this behavior is what fractured the sponsor relationships first.

 

----------------------

 

So it all comes down to Phil being stuck. Phil might actually be on the hook to play in these events which means it would be Phil vs a bunch of Asian Tour nobodies. DJ, Bryson and Koepka were the biggest names under 50 with major exemptions for the next 4-5 years. The idea was that they could have those 4 big names and a few older guys like Westwood and Poulter for the first year. The money would be huge, they would get a worldwide streaming deal and then guys like Rahm, Rory, Morikawa, JT and Spieth would jump ship (the risk for the younger guys is much bigger). These original 4 would stand to make billions on the equity and potentially ~$100 million cash the first year up front.

 

It actually had the potential for success even if it was a long shot. It needed the 4 big name major winners for year 1 so they could get a streaming deal. The streaming deal and high level competition would be needed for endorsement viability. Then the young guys would jump for year 2. The PGA Tour would have to capitulate and let players play in the SGL or lose the top young guys entirely and become a 2nd tier league.

 

When Rahm, Rory and Morikawa said they would never leave, combined with seeing Phil lose sponsors, the younger 3 guys got scared. The SGL is 100 pct stillborn at this point. They might still hold events to save face and they may already have the money spent and contracts in place for these events. But without the 4 big names it is dead.

 

----------------------

 

At this point, Phil is in a purgatory where even Callaway isn't going to pay him unless he starts playing PGA Tour events again (yes, there are exit clauses that can be enabled if a player doesn't play enough on Tour or causes harm to the sponsor...the flip side is that if his likeness is used in ongoing marketing they have to pay him). The pause is real in that Callaway isn't interested in giving up on Phil yet, but they aren't paying him.

 

So Phil needs to find a way out of his contract with the SGL. The ideal situation for Phil would be for the SGL to be in breach by going defunct before the first tournament Phil is obligated to play in. Phil might also be able to find a way for the SGL to release him from his contract (either a clause or an agreed release).

Now if Phil can't get out of his contract prior to his first tournament obligation with the SGL, we will likely never see Phil play on the PGA Tour or Champions Tour again. He might still be able to play in the 4 majors while he has exemptions (the PGA Championship is separate from the Tour).

 

Anyway, that is why Phil's apology letter was written the way it was. He is 100% in with the Saudis for the time being.

 

Tour Reps and agents...pffft... What? No caddies available to talk?  Hang out at the range of any PGA Tour event and it's worse than any gossipping sewing circle.

 

Phil's got issues for sure, but not any factual ones a tour rep knows about.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BenSeattle said:

 

Well, the PGA Tour is NOT saying that.  They're saying that you joined our association, you agreed to the rules established by its very own members, and if you violate that agreement then we have the right to ban you from our events.  They're certainly not preventing players from making a living; you just can't make it here.  There's Europe, there's Asia...  take your game anywhere else.

To quote an article by Alden Abbott, former chief counsel of FTC.

 

"

The U.S. Supreme Court made clear in Lorain Journal Co. v. United States in 1951 that it is an antitrust violation for a monopolist to attack competition by coercing third parties—such as independent contractors—not to deal with a rival. Other dominant sports leagues employed similar blacklisting tactics in the past but abandoned them decades ago under antitrust pressure. For example, in the 1940s and 1950s, the NFL blacklisted players for playing with rival leagues. One of those players, William Radovich, asserted an antitrust claim against the NFL and its commissioner based on his ban. The NFL claimed it was immune from the antitrust laws under baseball’s antitrust exemption, but when the Supreme Court rejected that defense, the NFL quickly settled Radovich’s claim.

When the NFL was unsuccessful in lobbying Congress to grant it an antitrust exemption, the league abandoned its blacklisting practices. The result was the launch of the AFL in 1960, and the explosion of competition transformed the landscape of professional football. Surely Monahan’s lawyers are aware of the lesson learned by the NFL more than 60 years ago."

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2 hours ago, BenSeattle said:

 

Sorry but I don't understand your use of the "collusion" argument here.  Collusion occurs when two separate entities secretly agree to take unilateral action against someone else; banning together, if you will, to create strength in numbers.  I don't see that happening here.  This is the PGA Tour simply saying that you're a member of our association and you violated the rules set forth by that association.  By violating these rules, you create your own jeopardy and thus we DO have the right to ban or suspend you as we see fit.  

In response to the 'insider info' where Phil has not been 'banned' but has been notified that any application to play will be met with a 'rejection of his application' from any tournament.  Not all tournaments are ran/owned/operated by the PGAT, hence more than one member organization agreeing to impose a 'ban' on Phil is collusion.  Same as NFL owners not hiring Kapernick.  

Edited by ivygynonc
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13 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Greg Norman, Saudi Arabia-backed LIV Golf aiming for $500 million for global media rights, according to a report
 

Streaming platforms, particularly the Netflixes, the Amazons, the Apples, are truly global. That’s one path we could pursue,” said Sean Bratches, a former ESPN executive and LIV Golf’s chief commercial officer.

 

If there's any hint of this being a sportswashing exercise, the chances of there being interest from the likes of Netflix, Apple and Amazon are pretty low...next to zero I would have thought. They need to knock on Rupert or Lachlan's door and see how generous they are feeling because I doubt there will be many other takers.

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2 hours ago, ivygynonc said:

In response to the 'insider info' where Phil has not been 'banned' but has been notified that any application will be met with a 'rejection of his application' from any tournament.  Not all tournaments are ran/owned/operated by the PGAT, hence more than one member organization agreeing to impose a 'ban' on Phil is collusion.  Same as NFL owners not hiring Kapernick.  

Ah ... but it isn't necessarily collusion. If those owners all independently decide they don't want the guy, that doesn't mean they "colluded", just means they didn't want the guy. There's a lot of football players that no NFL owner wants. Doesn't mean they are "colluding" to destroy the guy's career. 

 

All sports are, at their core, not about the sport - they are about entertainment. The money (for the owners, players, and all the tertiary folks involved) comes from eyeballs on the screen. Pro sportsmen are no different than actors or singers. They don't cure cancer. Don't end world hunger. They aren't rocket scientists. They are just entertainers. And anyone that is going to produce a public relations nightmare is not really going to be wanted anywhere in the entertainment world.

 

Woody Allen will never (probably) be on the big screen winning an Oscar again. Kaepernick is never going to get hired - and it doesn't matter how many ridiculous YouTube "workouts" at high school stadiums he runs. You can't loudly trash talk the NFL and then complain that you can't make millions playing in the NFL. Phil can't absolutely desecrate the PGA Tour publicly, and then complain that PGA Tour events (and most of his sponsors) no longer want anything to do with him. 

 

This is across the board. I run a company. When my recruiters (and I) interview employees, we are looking for both hard, and "soft" skills. Yeah, I need hard core skills, transitioning old CoBOL apps to the AWS cloud is not for the fainthearted. But if they are a complete jerks with no social skills that would destroy a project - I'm not wanting anything to do with them. And if someone actually tried to trash-talk my company on LinkedIn, and then expected to get hired? I mean, seriously? I wouldn't hire them, my competitors wouldn't hire them - but not because we were "colluding". 

 

The likes of Kaepernick, Phil, and a lot of others are just self-important, narcissistic egotists that (in their own minds) are far more important than they actually are in reality. There is no tourney where viewership will drop because Phil isn't teeing it up for goodness sake. (OMG! Phil won't be at Augusta? I'm totally not watching the Masters this year!!! Really?) He's a great golfer, but he simply is not that important

 

 

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2 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

The Champions Tour does not get really high ratings

 

The average age of person who watches golf is 65.

 

Then why do the top senior Champions Tour players make 2-3 million?

 

That is more money than the 40-200 ranked players on PGA tour. They have to be getting good ratings and much better ratings than the Korn Ferry and LPGA tours to have that much more money available in tournaments than those tours. 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Ah ... but it isn't necessarily collusion. If those owners all independently decide they don't want the guy, that doesn't mean they "colluded", just means they didn't want the guy. There's a lot of football players that no NFL owner wants. Doesn't mean they are "colluding" to destroy the guy's career. 

 

All sports are, at their core, not about the sport - they are about entertainment. The money (for the owners, players, and all the tertiary folks involved) comes from eyeballs on the screen. Pro sportsmen are no different than actors or singers. They don't cure cancer. Don't end world hunger. They aren't rocket scientists. They are just entertainers. And anyone that is going to produce a public relations nightmare is not really going to be wanted anywhere in the entertainment world.

 

Woody Allen will never (probably) be on the big screen winning an Oscar again. Kaepernick is never going to get hired - and it doesn't matter how many ridiculous YouTube "workouts" at high school stadiums he runs. You can't loudly trash talk the NFL and then complain that you can't make millions playing in the NFL. Phil can't absolutely desecrate the PGA Tour publicly, and then complain that PGA Tour events (and most of his sponsors) no longer want anything to do with him. 

 

This is across the board. I run a company. When my recruiters (and I) interview employees, we are looking for both hard, and "soft" skills. Yeah, I need hard core skills, transitioning old CoBOL apps to the AWS cloud is not for the fainthearted. But if they are a complete jerks with no social skills that would destroy a project - I'm not wanting anything to do with them. And if someone actually tried to trash-talk my company on LinkedIn, and then expected to get hired? I mean, seriously? I wouldn't hire them, my competitors wouldn't hire them - but not because we were "colluding". 

 

The likes of Kaepernick, Phil, and a lot of others are just self-important, narcissistic egotists that (in their own minds) are far more important than they actually are in reality. There is no tourney where viewership will drop because Phil isn't teeing it up for goodness sake. (OMG! Phil won't be at Augusta? I'm totally not watching the Masters this year!!! Really?) He's a great golfer, but he simply is not that important

 

 

Not saying you are wrong, not saying Yahoo reporters are right.  Just saying Kapernick won a suit based on collusion.   

 

https://www.yahoo.com/video/6-months-later-nf-ls-colin-kaepernick-settlement-has-failed-to-buy-silence-044010622.html#:~:text=Last February%2C the NFL was,nondisclosure agreement was in place.

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11 hours ago, Dicka said:

 

If there's any hint of this being a sportswashing exercise, the chances of there being interest from the likes of Netflix, Apple and Amazon are pretty low...next to zero I would have thought. They need to knock on Rupert or Lachlan's door and see how generous they are feeling because I doubt there will be many other takers.


 

Yeah, this Aussie doesn’t seem onboard,

 

OPINION

If mass beheadings don’t make Shark come to his senses then what will?

 

https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/if-mass-beheadings-don-t-make-shark-come-to-his-senses-then-what-will-20220318-p5a5uq.html

 

“When asked by the BBC about the beheadings this week as you launched your new Saudi tournament you made one comment. “If it’s good for the game of golf, it’s good for me,” 
 

 

Mods, apologies if this ventures into no-no territory. Understand if it doesn’t make the cut. This is not a comment made to denounce the Saudis or stir up politics.

But I think it’s relevant to how the media will be covering the LIV and the impact on potential media partners and sponsors. 

Edited by bscinstnct
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2 hours ago, One Putter said:

They are supposed to tee off in June but they have no media partners...

"All the big names are interested, let me tell you, the biggest names...." sounds familiar....

 

season 7 janey powell GIF

I would think they intend to produce and distribute it themselves.

 

via streaming online and/or one of the big streaming services.  
 

that sounds easiest and a good way to test the water for real interested parties on the sponsorship level.

 

although as we have been trying to say. They (Saudi’s)  could care less about any sort of revenue.

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17 hours ago, Dicka said:

 

If there's any hint of this being a sportswashing exercise, the chances of there being interest from the likes of Netflix, Apple and Amazon are pretty low...next to zero I would have thought. They need to knock on Rupert or Lachlan's door and see how generous they are feeling because I doubt there will be many other takers.

 

 

If you are a player and could make tens of millions in 8 events, do you even care if it is televised or not? Heck, if I won the lottery, I would want to stay anonymous. The sharks instantly start circling. 😂

 

 

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33 minutes ago, CCTxGolf said:

I would think they intend to produce and distribute it themselves.

 

via streaming online and/or one of the big streaming services.  
 

that sounds easiest and a good way to test the water for real interested parties on the sponsorship level.

 

although as we have been trying to say. They (Saudi’s)  could care less about any sort of revenue.

 

The last point is the main issue with this entire thing and why no big names will join. The Saudi's are going to try to pump money into this for a year or two. They will fail to attract any other sponsors to join them and fail to generate the good will they are looking for. Then they will dump the league and every player that decided to join it will be screwed because they will be banned from joining any major tour and may be barred from majors.

 

So basically you can make a ton of money four a year or two but your career may be over after that.

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32 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

The last point is the main issue with this entire thing and why no big names will join. The Saudi's are going to try to pump money into this for a year or two. They will fail to attract any other sponsors to join them and fail to generate the good will they are looking for. Then they will dump the league and every player that decided to join it will be screwed because they will be banned from joining any major tour and may be barred from majors.

 

So basically you can make a ton of money four a year or two but your career may be over after that.


Guaranteed ton of money is difficult to pass up


especially the ones that are starting to get the backside of their pga career. 
Turning into a game where around 30, players are making more money, want families, other priorities

 

its going on what 3,4 years since Brooks won his majors when it felt like he was gonna 1,2 majors every year

but he’s barely even won 1 pga event since lol

 

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Everybody relax, I’m here

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1 hour ago, Jc0 said:

 

The last point is the main issue with this entire thing and why no big names will join. The Saudi's are going to try to pump money into this for a year or two. They will fail to attract any other sponsors to join them and fail to generate the good will they are looking for. Then they will dump the league and every player that decided to join it will be screwed because they will be banned from joining any major tour and may be barred from majors.

 

So basically you can make a ton of money four a year or two but your career may be over after that.

That’s the point they are not trying to attract sponsors. I also don’t think it’s necessarily about good will.

 

the human rights angle on this is weak. No one really cares about that in any of the operations, pga, liv etc.

 

That whole idea was cooked up on the PGAT end and money talks louder than fake woke shame that will blow over in a matter

of a couple days news cycle.

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Better players will not like seeing lesser players making more money.  And players are going to go after the money, or demand more from the PGA Tour.  The best want to make the most in every sport.

 

If LIV is remotely successful, The PGA Tour internal financial structure is going to get hammered in the next couple of years. 

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Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg fame heard a “juicy rumor” that Rory was offered $400 million to join. It’s so much money that Rory is actually considering it. 

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On 3/18/2022 at 12:57 PM, tacklingdummy said:

You should listen to the Subpar podcast interviewing Greg Norman.

 

I did listen and while there was useful information there, Stolz and Knost absolutely BLEW IT when they completely failed by not asking the following questions:

 

1.  Where does your money come from?  What is the involvement of MBS?

 

2.  With such massive purses, how can this venture be profitable?

 

3.  If there's no profit motive, what return do your backers expect?

 

4.  Explain how this venture is NOT "sportwashing?"

 

5.  Why are you so pleased to accept backing from a regime who is accused of ordering the murder of a critical journalist along with many other human rights violations?

 

 

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13 hours ago, PorkChopExpress said:

Winning the Masters gives you life time exemption to the tournament. 
 

And if there’s anyone that gives the FU to everyone, it’s the folks there. You don’t tell them what to do lol

 

 

Yes, winning the Masters earns a "lifetime exemption" but let's not forget that the tournament is still an Invitational... in other words, you still must be invited.  "Oh, Phil didn't get his invitation this year?  Hmmmmm.... must have been lost in the mail.  What a shame."

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12 hours ago, BenSeattle said:

 

Yes, winning the Masters earns a "lifetime exemption" but let's not forget that the tournament is still an Invitational... in other words, you still must be invited.  "Oh, Phil didn't get his invitation this year?  Hmmmmm.... must have been lost in the mail.  What a shame."


that would be hilarious 

we sent it

did you not check your mail?

Everybody relax, I’m here

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14 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Andy Johnson of The Fried Egg fame heard a “juicy rumor” that Rory was offered $400 million to join. It’s so much money that Rory is actually considering it. 

Interesting.  What would Rory say in his presser if he did announce joining after he publicly crappped on the entire idea? 

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14 hours ago, BenSeattle said:

 

I did listen and while there was useful information there, Stolz and Knost absolutely BLEW IT when they completely failed by not asking the following questions:

 

1.  Where does your money come from?  What is the involvement of MBS?

 

2.  With such massive purses, how can this venture be profitable?

 

3.  If there's no profit motive, what return do your backers expect?

 

4.  Explain how this venture is NOT "sportwashing?"

 

5.  Why are you so pleased to accept backing from a regime who is accused of ordering the murder of a critical journalist along with many other human rights violations?

 

 

All questions that no one involved could give a rip about. It’s a golf podcast not the view.

 

there are no backers.

 

lol MBS. He’s a big golfer I here… 

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55 minutes ago, ebrasmus21 said:

Interesting.  What would Rory say in his presser if he did announce joining after he publicly crappped on the entire idea? 

" <removed> you all, I just made a half a billion” or something like that. At least that’s what I’d say. 

Edited by GwrxMod
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1 hour ago, ebrasmus21 said:

Interesting.  What would Rory say in his presser if he did announce joining after he publicly crappped on the entire idea? 

“Even I have a price.” If Rory goes, I could see everyone going. Rory has already said that if all the top players go, he would be forced to go too. Maybe the SGL reverses this: get Rory and you get everyone else so give him nearly half a billion. Andy also said that the top players clearly have egos. How would the top players who stay feel about inferior players getting $50-100 million to sign plus playing for $25 million a week? The PGA Tour better hope their ban holds up because that might be all they have. But if nearly all the good players leave the PGA Tour, the Tour could go belly up and it won’t matter. 

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2 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

“Even I have a price”

“I have a price and so do you.” 

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45 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

" <removed> you all, I just made a half a billion” or something like that. At least that’s what I’d say. 


 

Ha! It’s still not worth it for him to get banned from tour.

 

He’ll make 35+MM a year in income. And he’s got an inside track on investments to get to be worth a billion by the time he’s 40. 
 

No need to sell out for him. 

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Let's stop focusing on where the money is coming from for a second and think about what this can do for the game of golf.

 

To get your card on the PGA is hard, to get your card on the DP is hard, to compete on the KFT is hard! This series is allowing another 50 golfers the opportunity to make $, This will also open up for more club company sponsorships within our sport, open the door to more golfers around the 200ish OWGR an opportunity to compete and will only help the sport and athletes along the way.

 

Bryson has said before making money isn't as easy as we all assume for these guys. I think the PGA and DP need to not punish this series but embrace it, they need to realise the competition is healthy and the PGA will ALWAYS be the premier event. However, why can't there be another nice 2nd series tour?

 

Lastly, if someone like Tiger (I know it won't ever happen) was to jump in and play as walking 54 holes will be easier, if someone like Tiger says "this is great" or if someone like Tiger embraced another tour would we even all be here criticizing? would we be so negative towards the series? would we be calling it "crap" etc?

 

Someone is literally investing huge money into our sport yet we are all so against it? It is very hard to find "clean" money in this day and age. Yes killing anybody in my opinion isn't acceptable, but also I don't agree with kid ran workshops, I don't agree with slave labour, I don't agree with any forms of abuse yet as I am writing this I am sitting in a Nike jumper, I played with golf clubs yesterday made by companies like this and I fill my car weekly with oil which I assume comes from these locations only wishing they produced more to help rising fuel prices.

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5 minutes ago, rkelso184 said:

Let's stop focusing on where the money is coming from for a second and think about what this can do for the game of golf.

 

To get your card on the PGA is hard, to get your card on the DP is hard, to compete on the KFT is hard! This series is allowing another 50 golfers the opportunity to make $, This will also open up for more club company sponsorships within our sport, open the door to more golfers around the 200ish OWGR an opportunity to compete and will only help the sport and athletes along the way.

 

Bryson has said before making money isn't as easy as we all assume for these guys. I think the PGA and DP need to not punish this series but embrace it, they need to realise the competition is healthy and the PGA will ALWAYS be the premier event. However, why can't there be another nice 2nd series tour?

 

Lastly, if someone like Tiger (I know it won't ever happen) was to jump in and play as walking 54 holes will be easier, if someone like Tiger says "this is great" or if someone like Tiger embraced another tour would we even all be here criticizing? would we be so negative towards the series? would we be calling it "crap" etc?

 

Someone is literally investing huge money into our sport yet we are all so against it? It is very hard to find "clean" money in this day and age. Yes killing anybody in my opinion isn't acceptable, but also I don't agree with kid ran workshops, I don't agree with slave labour, I don't agree with any forms of abuse yet as I am writing this I am sitting in a Nike jumper, I played with golf clubs yesterday made by companies like this and I fill my car weekly with oil which I assume comes from these locations only wishing they produced more to help rising fuel prices.

Fair points.  

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