Private clubs & cart fees

[jibbs1082]

3 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

Would you like to single-handedly kill the golf industry?  Because that will do it.

 

 

Sad but true. 

[RoyalMustang]

33 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Same for me, but it would only increase mine approximately 25%.

 

I feel like the OP's main argument is that if you're a member at a private club then you have plenty of disposable income and shouldn't care if you're paying more for things you don't use. However, I know plenty of people at my club who have enough money to buy the club 20x over if they wanted, and they would certainly not be happy about paying for someone else to ride in a cart. 

 

 

Yeah, subsidies can make sense in certain circumstances (one could argue that funding education is a subsidy paid for those w/o kids) but an educated workforce benefits almost everyone in society.  Most businesses can't be successful without smart employees who have been publicly educated, and uneducated people will make poorer citizens on average, dragging down the entire society

 

But for golf carts, I don't think society really gains if riders get a subsidy.  

 

I like the analogy of subsidizing alcohol at a club. It encourages those who drink to drink even more, and those who don't drink to pay for other's alcohol consumption.  If half of the members increase their alcohol consumption by $100/week, then the other half of non-drinkers are paying $50/week to cover that share.  It doesn't go over well. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by RoyalMustang

[jibbs1082]

11 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

 

Yeah, subsidies can make sense in certain circumstances (one could argue that funding education is a subsidy paid for those w/o kids) but an educated workforce benefits almost everyone in society.  Most businesses can't be successful without smart employees who have been publicly educated, and uneducated people will make poorer citizens on average, dragging down the entire society

 

But for golf carts, I don't think society really gains if riders get a subsidy.  

 

I like the analogy of subsidizing alcohol at a club. It encourages those who drink to drink even more, and those who don't drink to pay for other's alcohol consumption.  If half of the members increase their alcohol consumption by $100/week, then the other half of non-drinkers are paying $50/week to cover that share.  It doesn't go over well. 

 

To really just simplify this argument - I think everyone who has posted agrees that cart fees serve a two-fold purpose. Cover maintenance of the fleet, and provide additional revenue for the club.

 

With the latter, if the club NEEDS that revenue, then why doesn't it just charge it upfront, rather than have a moving variable each year. IMO clubs shouldn't be relying on "cart users" to fund anything as that is an arbitrary factor-dependent source. Take the money upfront. Whatever you need.

 

With the former - annual maintenance for a fleet amongst 250-500 members is probably negligible in the grand scheme of annual dues $3-$5k.

 

Despite the fact I like to walk, take caddies etc, I guess I personally view carts as inclusive of a round of golf, and not an add on. A Golf membership annual dues should include playing 18 holes and 18 holes should include riding, walking cart, or walking IMO.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by jibbs1082

[Warrior42111]

29 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

Sad but true. 

Europe has a different climate then some of America though.

 

Yes we're fat, but even my somewhat round somewhat in shape body would be struggling to finish mid afternoon rounds in the summer in FL. 

[jibbs1082]

1 minute ago, Warrior42111 said:

Europe has a different climate then some of America though.

 

Yes we're fat, but even my somewhat round somewhat in shape body would be struggling to finish mid afternoon rounds in the summer in FL. 

 

True

[leekgolf]

22 hours ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

I agree. Inclusive everything.

 

I realize walkability is arbitrary but I think there is some generalized common sense as to if a course is walkable, or cart-only.

 

Listened to a pod the other day with Gil Hanse talking about walking culture in europe vs. USA. Get rid of carts all together except for those who require it medically... and promote caddy programs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you underestimate the cost of adding unlimited carts to every member's dues at a private club. From what I've seen, unlimited carts at a nice private club with regular upgrading and maintenance policies costs about $1600-2000 per person or $2500-$2800 per couple for the season at a northern club with a 6-8 month season. For a family, I believe it's about $400 per additional child.

 

So, for a family of 4 with 2 children, you could be looking at a $3600 increase in annual dues - $300 per month. I'm not sure how much more it might cost at a club with a 12 month season in the South.

 

How many members are going to be willing to increase their monthly dues by $300 whether they play golf or not, whether they play 4 times weekly or 1 time weekly?

 

I think taking this approach might drive out everyone but the avid golfers. If that happens, the avid golfers won't have a place to play either.

 

If you're wondering, I've seen this happen. The club gone and the course, a beautiful Arthur Hills signature course is now a high end housing development.

Is that what we want?

 

 

[dcmidnight]

11 minutes ago, Warrior42111 said:

Europe has a different climate then some of America though.

 

Yes we're fat, but even my somewhat round somewhat in shape body would be struggling to finish mid afternoon rounds in the summer in FL. 

 

At least 80% of this is also course design. I played 7 courses on my trip to Scotland and I cant remember more than 1 or 2 holes where I had to walk more than 30 seconds from the green to the next tee. I've also played...I dont know, 15-20 different courses in Florida and some of them have distances to the next hole that can be measured in fractions of a mile, not seconds.

[miamistomp]

1 hour ago, david.c.w said:

 

Would you like to single-handedly kill the golf industry?  Because that will do it.

 

 There was golf before carts and there would be golf after

[david.c.w]

Just now, miamistomp said:

 There was golf before carts and there would be golf after

 

Yes I was overstating some, but the industry (and clubs) would be drastically, drastically different.  

 

 

[miamistomp]

Just now, david.c.w said:

 

Yes I was overstating some, but the industry (and clubs) would be drastically, drastically different.  

 

 

 Weed out a lot of the drunks and bad actors if they had to walk...

[david.c.w]

1 minute ago, miamistomp said:

 Weed out a lot of the drunks and bad actors if they had to walk...

 

For sure, but will also weed out the older, less mobile people.   I have said this many times on WRX, I love walking.  I walk almost all my rounds in the winter, spring and fall.  Walking a hilly course in the summer in the south can be nearly impossible to enjoy.  We are dead uphill from 7 green to 9 tee.  In the summer I have sweat dripping off my hat while trying to putt on 9.  I am 48 and in decent shape.

 

Golf carts, while not mandatory, play a key role in golf today and in the future.

 

Going back to OP's points, i think something like 75% (or more) of cart revenue is profit that goes right to the overall club budget.  Adding it to dues would benefit me, but would hurt others.

 

 

[miamistomp]

No problem with people who NEED to use a cart

But cart as normality is just wrong

 

I am 70 and walk every round at my home course ( south florida and flat ) but also 88 degrees today

I joined there because there is no cart fee

 

I live next to a course that I don't play because only juniors are permitted to walk

Edited April 6, 2022 by miamistomp

[dcmidnight]

40 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

 Weed out a lot of the drunks and bad actors if they had to walk...

 

What do you say to the hundreds and hundreds - if not thousands - of courses that opened in the last 50 years where carts are an absolute necessity? So sad for you guys, guess you'll have to close?

[ND2005]

11 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

What do you say to the hundreds and hundreds - if not thousands - of courses that opened in the last 50 years where carts are an absolute necessity? So sad for you guys, guess you'll have to close?

 

Probably 75% of rounds in the US are played on a cart. 

 

For upwards of half the US golfing population, walking is just unheard of. 

 

This is all obviously pointless hypothetical anyways - but yes, if there was widespread elimination of carts, courses across the US would be shuttered and the world of recreational golf would implode. 

[dcmidnight]

Correct.

 

I think I walked 82 rounds last year and only rode 2 because they were mens group, shotgun start scrambles where its just easier logistically.

[ND2005]

4 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

Correct.

 

I think I walked 82 rounds last year and only rode 2 because they were mens group, shotgun start scrambles where its just easier logistically.

 

I prefer walking but I ride sometimes: 

-Residential style courses (long stretches between green to tee, etc)

-South TX summer heat

-Sometimes if planning 36 in a day

-Tournaments/outings where it seems like carts are basically required and no one walks

-Lazy buddies

[myphriendmike]

Say they invent personal drone helicopter carts so you can fly around the course.  You and 25% of members love the idea.  75% wouldn't be caught dead in one let alone pay for it, but they say 'you go right ahead, just cover the cost.'  Same with every aspect of a club.  You use, you pay.  

 

My club: 

1) Walk freely

2) Push cart for $10

2) Golf Cart for $30

3) Take Caddie for $60-100, support the program, support a young person's job, enjoy the round much more.  

[jkody]

23 hours ago, leekgolf said:

I think you underestimate the cost of adding unlimited carts to every member's dues at a private club. From what I've seen, unlimited carts at a nice private club with regular upgrading and maintenance policies costs about $1600-2000 per person or $2500-$2800 per couple for the season at a northern club with a 6-8 month season. For a family, I believe it's about $400 per additional child. 

 

How many members are going to be willing to increase their monthly dues by $300 whether they play golf or not, whether they play 4 times weekly or 1 time weekly?

 

That must be a HUGE revenue generator for them because I happen to know of at least one reasonably nice club in a not-low-cost-part of the country that has really nice electric carts with GPS etc, and unlimited cart usage is included in the family dues, which total not much more than the $300 in additional dues that you mention above.

 

Also, the season pass for cart fees for a nearby excellent public course (with very nearly private-level conditioning) with brand new carts is $550.

 

So $1600-2000 for unlimited carts at a nice private does not seem to bear any actual relationship to the cost of the carts, and is purely a revenue generator for the club. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by jkody

[golfortennis]

On 4/6/2022 at 3:12 PM, dcmidnight said:

 

At least 80% of this is also course design. I played 7 courses on my trip to Scotland and I cant remember more than 1 or 2 holes where I had to walk more than 30 seconds from the green to the next tee. I've also played...I dont know, 15-20 different courses in Florida and some of them have distances to the next hole that can be measured in fractions of a mile, not seconds.

 

This is huge, and I know in some cases you have this for "wow" factor(holes with high tee box and a great view to a downhill fairway), but you also have housing developments, and I think some owners want their course to be designed in such a way to necessitate carts.  Best you can do in a number of cases is vote with your dollars as someone mentioned up thread.

 

 

[leekgolf]

6 hours ago, jkody said:

 

That must be a HUGE revenue generator for them because I happen to know of at least one reasonably nice club in a not-low-cost-part of the country that has really nice electric carts with GPS etc, and unlimited cart usage is included in the family dues, which total not much more than the $300 in additional dues that you mention above.

 

Also, the season pass for cart fees for a nearby excellent public course (with very nearly private-level conditioning) with brand new carts is $550.

 

So $1600-2000 for unlimited carts at a nice private does not seem to bear any actual relationship to the cost of the carts, and is purely a revenue generator for the club. 

It’s what my golf club charges for unlimited cart use from April 16 to September 15. 
 

You may also pay by the round, $30 each. Break even is about 60 rounds which is 12 rounds per month. My other club charges $30 per round for cart fees, with no unlimited option. You may walk all you want, but you’ll pay the $30 fee. 
 

I wonder if our definition of a nice club might be different?

[ND2005]

13 hours ago, golfortennis said:

you also have housing developments, and I think some owners want their course to be designed in such a way to necessitate carts. 

 

It's not necessarily that the owners want their courses to necessitate carts, it's that the golf course is the victim of the housing/neighborhood planning which compromises the routing. 

 

This is at this point almost a majority of US courses. Most of us don't get a nice walkable Ross course in our backyards. We are stuck with the 70s-90s housing development architectural style courses. 

[klebs01]

4 hours ago, ND2005 said:

 

It's not necessarily that the owners want their courses to necessitate carts, it's that the golf course is the victim of the housing/neighborhood planning which compromises the routing. 

 

This is at this point almost a majority of US courses. Most of us don't get a nice walkable Ross course in our backyards. We are stuck with the 70s-90s housing development architectural style courses. 

the development course deal is very much a regional thing. Probably less than 10% of golf courses around me are not core golf courses. 

[leekgolf]

On 4/6/2022 at 2:39 PM, jibbs1082 said:

 

 

With the former - annual maintenance for a fleet amongst 250-500 members is probably negligible in the grand scheme of annual dues $3-$5k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Club dues at decent private clubs in Ohio run more like $7-10k and up. What I've seen in California and Florida are much higher than that.

 

 

If you take a look at a few clubs' financial statements, you might be surprised at the cost to keep and maintain a fleet of carts. Beyond that, cart revenues are often the source of funds to pay the professional staff. 

 

 

 

 

[Jsp3316]

My club has cart fee included in monthly dues which is nice, show up grab a cart and go. Although walking is always an option our back 9 is very hilly, most members I see walking usually grab a cart for the back 9.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jsp3316

[Golferpaul]

On 4/6/2022 at 2:29 PM, miamistomp said:

 There was golf before carts and there would be golf after

True.  And we had horses before we had pickup trucks and could have horses again if we outlaw pickup trucks.

 

Carts hare the greatest improvement in the game of golf since we replaced wooden shafts.  Carts enable millions of us to play that might not be able to walk 18 holes.

[Golferpaul]

On 4/7/2022 at 1:54 PM, jkody said:

 

That must be a HUGE revenue generator for them because I happen to know of at least one reasonably nice club in a not-low-cost-part of the country that has really nice electric carts with GPS etc, and unlimited cart usage is included in the family dues, which total not much more than the $300 in additional dues that you mention above.

 

Also, the season pass for cart fees for a nearby excellent public course (with very nearly private-level conditioning) with brand new carts is $550.

 

So $1600-2000 for unlimited carts at a nice private does not seem to bear any actual relationship to the cost of the carts, and is purely a revenue generator for the club. 

Many of us play three times every week and pay $25 for a cart.  That's $3900 per year so I would be glad to increase my dues by $2000 per year for unlimited cart use.

[Tim_Gavrich]

A few thoughts on an interesting thread:

 

- If management says the reason their otherwise walkable course doesn't allow walking (at all or just at certain times) is because walking is slower than carts, they're probably either ignorant or straight-up lying because they're more concerned about maximizing their deal with their cart provider than fostering good golf culture at the course/club.

 

- I can't stop wondering about the notion that the way a private club should react to a member who only shows up to play the golf course and leaves is to squeeze that member out...rather than a) try and figure out ways to get that member (and others like him or her) to use the club more, and/or b) do a better job of recruiting members who are going to use the club more heavily. A club manager blaming that member for the club's failure to engage them is pretty telling. If a course or club needs cart revenue in order to survive, it's likely that something has gone very wrong along the way.

 

- A club near me is advertising very attractive monthly "Young Executive" dues and this past weekend I learned why: during the high season here in Florida, members are not allowed to walk (ever), despite the course being fairly walkable. So your dues are juiced by $23 x the number of rounds you play per month. Imagine forcing able-bodied 20-somethings and 30-somethings to take a cart on a spectacular, breezy 70-degree day in the winter (dead of summer, I'll grant you that carts come in handy). It's no wonder American golfers have been conditioned to believe golf carts are so much more important and necessary than they really are. It's also no wonder that the golf culture in Florida is so mediocre, even compared to other states.

 

- Finally, it's truly hilarious to consider golfers' over-reliance on carts having just watched Tiger walk all 72 holes at Augusta this past weekend... 

[david.c.w]

37 minutes ago, Tim_Gavrich said:

A few thoughts on an interesting thread:

 

- If management says the reason their otherwise walkable course doesn't allow walking (at all or just at certain times) is because walking is slower than carts, they're probably either ignorant or straight-up lying because they're more concerned about maximizing their deal with their cart provider than fostering good golf culture at the course/club.

 

- I can't stop wondering about the notion that the way a private club should react to a member who only shows up to play the golf course and leaves is to squeeze that member out...rather than a) try and figure out ways to get that member (and others like him or her) to use the club more, and/or b) do a better job of recruiting members who are going to use the club more heavily. A club manager blaming that member for the club's failure to engage them is pretty telling. If a course or club needs cart revenue in order to survive, it's likely that something has gone very wrong along the way.

 

- A club near me is advertising very attractive monthly "Young Executive" dues and this past weekend I learned why: during the high season here in Florida, members are not allowed to walk (ever), despite the course being fairly walkable. So your dues are juiced by $23 x the number of rounds you play per month. Imagine forcing able-bodied 20-somethings and 30-somethings to take a cart on a spectacular, breezy 70-degree day in the winter (dead of summer, I'll grant you that carts come in handy). It's no wonder American golfers have been conditioned to believe golf carts are so much more important and necessary than they really are. It's also no wonder that the golf culture in Florida is so mediocre, even compared to other states.

 

- Finally, it's truly hilarious to consider golfers' over-reliance on carts having just watched Tiger walk all 72 holes at Augusta this past weekend... 

 

I agree with many of your statements, but disagree with others.  

 

1)  Courses should not prohibit walking, unless the layout is such that there is 400 yard between holes.  That is when walking is slower than riding.  There are a lot courses like this.

 

2)  Every private club will have members who need to keep the monthly as low as possible.  If management is actively trying to squeeze out those members the club is not worth its salt.  That being said, clubs 100% rely on cart revenue to operate the club.  It is not needed to survive, but is part of the annual budget of the club that makes it work.  The money needs to come from somewhere.  Most departments operate at a loss.  Grounds, administration, pool, tennis.  F&B is break-even at best.  Money comes from dues and carts for daily operations.  Initiation goes to capital.  

 

4)  Comparing Tiger's recovery to the average Joe golfer is nuts.  Tiger has access to the best surgeons, doctors, trainers, rehab teams, nutritionists, in the world.  Joe six-pack who gets hurts in a wreck and then has to work 10 hours a day and take of his kids sports schedule can not rehab like Tiger.  There is no comparison.

 

[jibbs1082]

On 4/8/2022 at 2:49 PM, leekgolf said:

Club dues at decent private clubs in Ohio run more like $7-10k and up. What I've seen in California and Florida are much higher than that.

 

 

If you take a look at a few clubs' financial statements, you might be surprised at the cost to keep and maintain a fleet of carts. Beyond that, cart revenues are often the source of funds to pay the professional staff. 

 

 

 

 

 

You're right - should have said $5-10k.

 

Cart fees (which are annually variable) should never be a source of revenue to pay for club operations, IMO.

[Tim_Gavrich]

1 hour ago, david.c.w said:

 

I agree with many of your statements, but disagree with others.  

 

1)  Courses should not prohibit walking, unless the layout is such that there is 400 yard between holes.  That is when walking is slower than riding.  There are a lot courses like this.

 

2)  Every private club will have members who need to keep the monthly as low as possible.  If management is actively trying to squeeze out those members the club is not worth its salt.  That being said, clubs 100% rely on cart revenue to operate the club.  It is not needed to survive, but is part of the annual budget of the club that makes it work.  The money needs to come from somewhere.  Most departments operate at a loss.  Grounds, administration, pool, tennis.  F&B is break-even at best.  Money comes from dues and carts for daily operations.  Initiation goes to capital.  

 

4)  Comparing Tiger's recovery to the average Joe golfer is nuts.  Tiger has access to the best surgeons, doctors, trainers, rehab teams, nutritionists, in the world.  Joe six-pack who gets hurts in a wreck and then has to work 10 hours a day and take of his kids sports schedule can not rehab like Tiger.  There is no comparison.

 

1) I don't disagree, and I realize the term "otherwise walkable" can be somewhat up for debate.

2) I understand that the money needs to come from somewhere, but if that somewhere is carts (which require significant infrastructure investment - cart paths, cart barn, fleet maintenance, labor that handles/repairs/cleans the carts), I think it's reasonable to wonder how and why a facility that is supposed to be about golf is actually more of a 4-hours-at-a-time car rental counter.

4) The fact that Tiger needed a Herculean effort from many people just to walk 72 holes is my point. The vast majority of us don't have and will never have the physical obstacles he's had to overcome of late, and yet we probably take carts more than we should (and I say that as someone who rides more than he would like to for reasons mostly, but not entirely, beyond my control).