Private clubs & cart fees

[david.c.w]

3 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

You're right - should have said $5-10k.

 

Cart fees (which are annually variable) should never be a source of revenue to pay for club operations, IMO.

 

So.... if it does not pay for club operations, where does it go?

 

[jibbs1082]

1 hour ago, david.c.w said:

 

So.... if it does not pay for club operations, where does it go?

 

 

It shouldn't exist - and club operations should be covered in annual dues

[david.c.w]

 

12 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

It shouldn't exist - and club operations should be covered in annual dues

 

The argument is not a bad one.  But as many here have pointed out, not everyone wants it that way, specifically light users and walkers.   Charging for carts separate, be it per round or monthly or yearly, is the status quo at most clubs, munis and resort courses, and will be hard to change.

 

For one, I would come out ahead if baked into dues for everyone.  But this is not a hill to die on.

 

 

 

[Golferpaul]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:05 AM, Tim_Gavrich said:

A few thoughts on an interesting thread:

 

- If management says the reason their otherwise walkable course doesn't allow walking (at all or just at certain times) is because walking is slower than carts, they're probably either ignorant or straight-up lying because they're more concerned about maximizing their deal with their cart provider than fostering good golf culture at the course/club.

 

 

Wow!  Why the cart hate?  Riding a cart is faster than walking on most golf courses.  Slow golfers are slow whether or not they ride a cart.

[Golferpaul]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:05 AM, Tim_Gavrich said:

 

 

- Finally, it's truly hilarious to consider golfers' over-reliance on carts having just watched Tiger walk all 72 holes at Augusta this past weekend... 

You have no idea what health issues other golfers have.  I play with several who cannot walk five holes, much less 18.

 

And finally, it's truly hilarious to consider golfers' cart hate.

[klebs01]

35 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

You have no idea what health issues other golfers have.  I play with several who cannot walk five holes, much less 18.

 

And finally, it's truly hilarious to consider golfers' cart hate.

Carts are awful and shouldn’t be part of the game. I’m ok with operating as certain courses do like Erin Hills. Mandatory walking unless there is a doctors note/medical reason. Seems like a reasonable compromise. I’ll actually go further. Those with carts should operate them like they do at clubs I’ve been at when they have the handicap flag on the cart and can basically drive right up to the green. If you actually need a cart then more freedom with the cart would be helpful.  Everyone else can walk. 

[Bonneville85308]

I prefer walking. I typically only play easy-to-walk courses, and only ride when the temperature gets into the high 90s or more.

 

That being said, I do realize that most average public courses are kept in business by 70 year old men with beer guts and various ailments. You make them walk, they won't play. I am fine with them riding, because otherwise there would be a lot fewer golf courses around, and the remaining ones would be a lot more expensive. Just don't force me to ride an otherwise easily walkable course.

[Golferpaul]

39 minutes ago, Bonneville85308 said:

I prefer walking. I typically only play easy-to-walk courses, and only ride when the temperature gets into the high 90s or more.

 

That being said, I do realize that most average public courses are kept in business by 70 year old men with beer guts and various ailments. 

I also prefer walking.  The 70-year-olds that I play (both riding and walking) with do not have a beer gut and we play a private club.

 

How about reversing the criticism?  I hate sitting in my cart waiting on walkers who think they are the arbiters of how golf should be played and slow the place of pay.

 

Just in case you are not aware;

• Not all cart riders have a beer gut
• Not all cart riders drink and act like college kids
• Not all cart riders are slow
• Not all walkers are fast
• Most walkers don't fill their divots
• Most walkers slow the pace of play

BTW, saying "golf was intended to be a walking sport" is about as silly as saying "golf was intended to use wooden shafts".

[Golferpaul]

7 hours ago, klebs01 said:

Carts are awful and shouldn’t be part of the game.

What a silly statement.  That's about as appropriate as saying "Pull carts are awful and shouldn't be a part of the game".

[ND2005]

14 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I also prefer walking.  The 70-year-olds that I play (both riding and walking) with do not have a beer gut and we play a private club.

 

How about reversing the criticism?  I hate sitting in my cart waiting on walkers who think they are the arbiters of how golf should be played and slow the place of pay.

 

Just in case you are not aware;

• Not all cart riders have a beer gut
• Not all cart riders drink and act like college kids
• Not all cart riders are slow
• Not all walkers are fast
• Most walkers don't fill their divots
• Most walkers slow the pace of play

BTW, saying "golf was intended to be a walking sport" is about as silly as saying "golf was intended to use wooden shafts".

 

The Golfwrx 0.2 index 320yd baby fader, who walks every round in 2.5 hours...

 

Does not resemble the walkers I see at most courses. 

[knickerbocker]

Walkers are at my club are generally slower than those that ride in carts.  That is because most of the groups that ride in carts play in 3 hours, walkers in 3.5

 

Some people like to walk, some people like to ride.  Whatever is fine with me at my club.  But Walkers shouldn't pay for carts if they don't use them.  And members that play 20 rounds a year shouldn't pay for the members that play 80.  

 

Obviously, carts are more fixed cost vs variable, but the club should project number of cart rounds each year based on history and membership level and then apply that fixed cost of cart lease/ownership to projected rounds plus estimated variable cost to create a cart fee for members.  

[RoyalMustang]

18 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

I prefer walking. I typically only play easy-to-walk courses, and only ride when the temperature gets into the high 90s or more.

 

That being said, I do realize that most average public courses are kept in business by 70 year old men with beer guts and various ailments. You make them walk, they won't play. I am fine with them riding, because otherwise there would be a lot fewer golf courses around, and the remaining ones would be a lot more expensive. Just don't force me to ride an otherwise easily walkable course.

 

Ha!  It is always funny when I play with someone who is my age and they ask me "how can you hit the ball that far"?  Well, for one thing, I walk most of my golf, which gives me a nice strong core and legs.  Second, I am not 50lbs overweight, which means I am just as fresh on the 18th hole as I am the first.  You should really try being in shape if you want to play well

 

Nothing against riding, and the argument can be made that it helps your game by allowing you to play more golf.  But the argument could also be made that walking helps your game from a fitness level perspective.  For me, I sit on my butt 50-60 hours a week looking at a computer screen, so you had better believe I am walking every chance I get.  If I have a bad round (and I usually do), I still have the enjoyment of being outside.  

 

And I can still easily accommodate 4 beers in my clic gear cooler

 

Back to the topic at hand: if you want to use a cart, great. Just don't make me subsidize your cart usage, and don't tell me I can't walk just so that I have to pay for a cart I don't want

Edited April 14, 2022 by RoyalMustang

[leekgolf]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:55 PM, jibbs1082 said:

 

It shouldn't exist - and club operations should be covered in annual dues

No problem, pay a lot more in dues. Now what happens if people quit over the price increase? The club's costs are pretty constant. Either get new members willing to pay the higher price or raise your dues.

[leekgolf]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:58 AM, klebs01 said:

Carts are awful and shouldn’t be part of the game. 

That's not very elitist is it?

 

Your belief is fine if you want to cut the number of people who play golf by about 75%. The course won't be as crowded for a little while, then a high percentage will close and developers will build houses on the land. 

 

I think you have a great idea if you want drastically reduce the number of players.

[leekgolf]

8 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

Ha!  It is always funny when I play with someone who is my age and they ask me "how can you hit the ball that far"?  Well, for one thing, I walk most of my golf, which gives me a nice strong core and legs.  Second, I am not 50lbs overweight, which means I am just as fresh on the 18th hole as I am the first.  You should really try being in shape if you want to play well

 

Nothing against riding, and the argument can be made that it helps your game by allowing you to play more golf.  But the argument could also be made that walking helps your game from a fitness level perspective.  For me, I sit on my butt 50-60 hours a week looking at a computer screen, so you had better believe I am walking every chance I get.  If I have a bad round (and I usually do), I still have the enjoyment of being outside.  

 

And I can still easily accommodate 4 beers in my clic gear cooler

 

Back to the topic at hand: if you want to use a cart, great. Just don't make me subsidize your cart usage, and don't tell me I can't walk just so that I have to pay for a cart I don't want

I think you are right about walking. It's a great way to make a small fitness improved,ent and have fun doing it.

 

I also agree charging you for @jibbs1082's cart is ridiculous. 

 

Golf is a business. Private golf clubs are 9in a tough business. They have to take in enough cash to cover their operations, fund maintenance and capital reserves and in many cases make a small profit. They want us to be happy and for the most part they want to do a great job for their members, but in the end it's a business.

[miamistomp]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:50 PM, Golferpaul said:

I also prefer walking.  The 70-year-olds that I play (both riding and walking) with do not have a beer gut and we play a private club.

 

How about reversing the criticism?  I hate sitting in my cart waiting on walkers who think they are the arbiters of how golf should be played and slow the place of pay.

 

Just in case you are not aware;

• Not all cart riders have a beer gut
• Not all cart riders drink and act like college kids
• Not all cart riders are slow
• Not all walkers are fast
• Most walkers don't fill their divots
• Most walkers slow the pace of play

BTW, saying "golf was intended to be a walking sport" is about as silly as saying "golf was intended to use wooden shafts".

 What is the problem with wooden shafts ?

[klebs01]

26 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

That's not very elitist is it?

 

Your belief is fine if you want to cut the number of people who play golf by about 75%. The course won't be as crowded for a little while, then a high percentage will close and developers will build houses on the land. 

 

I think you have a great idea if you want drastically reduce the number of players.

75%? Not a chance. Maybe a few people and that’s fine. Carts are not a common part of golf in most of the world. Golf would be fine with no carts except for those with health issues. 

[leekgolf]

21 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

75%? Not a chance. Maybe a few people and that’s fine. Carts are not a common part of golf in most of the world. Golf would be fine with no carts except for those with health issues. 

Your opinion is probably valid in the UK and perhaps Europe. Where are you?

 

In North America, the majority of rounds are played by people in carts. Many of them will stop playing if forced to walk. 

 

In 2020, due to restrictions players walked more than they had in close to 60 years. In spite of the resurgence in walking, over 70% of rounds were played in a cart. ( NY Times research)

 

The Loop at Forest Dunes in  Roscommon Michigan was designed with two courses built to be a walking course and carts were not allowed. By 2019, they only had 6,500 rounds played combined on both courses. They had to add carts in order to survive.  A facility like this should have well over 15,000 rounds per season.

 

Face it, without carts, your local course is in trouble.

Edited April 14, 2022 by leekgolf

[ND2005]

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

75%? Not a chance. Maybe a few people and that’s fine. Carts are not a common part of golf in most of the world. Golf would be fine with no carts except for those with health issues. 

There is solid data on this. 
 
In the US, 70+% of rounds are on a cart. 
 
If you got rid of carts, this would not convert to more walking rounds…it would convert to fewer golfers. 
 
It is just a complete non-starter, Internet arguments aside. 

[StudentGolfer4]

4 hours ago, leekgolf said:

Your opinion is probably valid in the UK and perhaps Europe. Where are you?

 

In North America, the majority of rounds are played by people in carts. Many of them will stop playing if forced to walk. 

 

In 2020, due to restrictions players walked more than they had in close to 60 years. In spite of the resurgence in walking, over 70% of rounds were played in a cart. ( NY Times research)

 

The Loop at Forest Dunes in  Roscommon Michigan was designed with two courses built to be a walking course and carts were not allowed. By 2019, they only had 6,500 rounds played combined on both courses. They had to add carts in order to survive.  A facility like this should have well over 15,000 rounds per season.

 

Face it, without carts, your local course is in trouble.

I’m curious on where these numbers come from. And you say they should do well over 15k rounds. What is that number and assumption based off of? I would love to see the data if you have it. How many rounds per year were played on the original course at forest dunes? Is there a preferences in rounds played on the red vs black routings of the loop.
 

The course I’m most familiar with back home is a nice country club. Top 100 type of place and they did just under 23k rounds in 2021. That was the most ever and the course seemed pretty busy. Factor in a resort that’s open from May to mid October and 15k seems kind of high when you don’t have anyone playing for almost half of the year. 

 

When discussing total rounds, it seems a bit misleading to call them two separate courses because only one is open for play per day. Forest Dunes is becoming more popular but from 2016-19 it wasn’t talked about near as much as it is now. For example, both the No Laying Up and Barstool golf guys visited and released a ton of content from the resort this past year. I don’t think it would be fair to compare it to Arcadia or Sand Valley. Yes, I know this year they are allowing carts on the loop. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by StudentGolfer4

[ND2005]

4 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I’m curious on where these numbers come from. And you say they should do well over 15k rounds. What is that number and assumption based off of? I would love to see the data if you have it. How many rounds per year were played on the original course at forest dunes? Is there a preferences in rounds played on the red vs black routings of the loop.
 

The course I’m most familiar with back home is a nice country club. Top 100 type of place and they did just under 23k rounds in 2021. That was the most ever and the course seemed pretty busy. Factor in a resort that’s open from May to mid October and 15k seems kind of high when you don’t have anyone playing for almost half of the year. 

 

When discussing total rounds, it seems a bit misleading to call them two separate courses because only one is open for play per day. Forest Dunes is becoming more popular but from 2016-19 it wasn’t talked about near as much as it is now. For example, both the No Laying Up and Barstool golf guys visited and released a ton of content from the resort this past year. I don’t think it would be fair to compare it to Arcadia or Sand Valley. Yes, I know this year they are allowing carts on the loop. 

those numbers are from an article and came from the GM or owners, I can’t remember which magazine but I read it as well. 

[leekgolf]

4 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I’m curious on where these numbers come from. And you say they should do well over 15k rounds. What is that number and assumption based off of? I would love to see the data if you have it. How many rounds per year were played on the original course at forest dunes? Is there a preferences in rounds played on the red vs black routings of the loop.
 

The course I’m most familiar with back home is a nice country club. Top 100 type of place and they did just under 23k rounds in 2021. That was the most ever and the course seemed pretty busy. Factor in a resort that’s open from May to mid October and 15k seems kind of high when you don’t have anyone playing for almost half of the year. 

 

When discussing total rounds, it seems a bit misleading to call them two separate courses because only one is open for play per day. Forest Dunes is becoming more popular but from 2016-19 it wasn’t talked about near as much as it is now. For example, both the No Laying Up and Barstool golf guys visited and released a ton of content from the resort this past year. I don’t think it would be fair to compare it to Arcadia or Sand Valley. Yes, I know this year they are allowing carts on the loop. 

The numbers came from Forest Dunes Director of Operations. Don Helinski. Beyond that, data on rounds played and cart usage comes from the National Golf Foundation.

 

 

 

[ND2005]

6500 rounds a year for a resort course is nowhere near enough to maintain a healthy business. 

 

Assume 6 month season in Michigan (May-Oct, probably conservative estimate), that is about 35 rounds per day. That's insanely low for a resort.

Edited April 15, 2022 by ND2005

[stevopagolf]

I don't like additional fees that are not optional such as cart storage, cart fees, GHIN, Mens association fees.

 

If they are not optional they should be in the dues.  

 

We can't walk to after 1:30. Cart fee $30 per rider....

[Tim_Gavrich]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:18 AM, Golferpaul said:

You have no idea what health issues other golfers have.  I play with several who cannot walk five holes, much less 18.

 

And finally, it's truly hilarious to consider golfers' cart hate.

Quite an unfortunate and misleading bit of cherry-picking here.

 

No one on this thread has argued that golfers with legitimate physical or health issues should be barred from playing golf. Neither I nor any other sane advocate of walking golf wants to discriminate against people who have a legitimate health issue that would otherwise keep them from being able to play without a cart. Even walking-only facilities keep a few motorized carts on hand for those with legitimate reasons for them. That's 100% okay by me. What I question is otherwise able-bodied golfers' reliance on carts, which has various causes both related and unrelated to golfers' decisions about how they're going to get around the course.

 

I would encourage those who are sure that golf would die if carts went away to do some research about what happened during the pandemic when many golfers found themselves unable to use carts for an extended period of time. Believe it or not, they didn't quit the game. Instead, they created unprecedented demand for pull carts. Their desire to play golf outweighed their reliance on the comfort of a golf cart and, in many cases, discovered that it actually feels better to walk a golf course.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/sports/golf/golf-walking-vs-carts-exercise.html

 

It turns out the fun thing about golf is not getting behind the wheel of a golf cart, but actually playing the game.

[Shilgy]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:58 AM, klebs01 said:

Carts are awful and shouldn’t be part of the game. I’m ok with operating as certain courses do like Erin Hills. Mandatory walking unless there is a doctors note/medical reason. Seems like a reasonable compromise. I’ll actually go further. Those with carts should operate them like they do at clubs I’ve been at when they have the handicap flag on the cart and can basically drive right up to the green. If you actually need a cart then more freedom with the cart would be helpful.  Everyone else can walk. 

C’mon down to Phoenix this summer.  I have a group you can join at noon…when it’s 118* out.

[klebs01]

15 hours ago, Shilgy said:

C’mon down to Phoenix this summer.  I have a group you can join at noon…when it’s 118* out.

Sounds good. Love Phoenix in the summer. Watching the monsoon storms pop up across the valley is pretty cool. 

[Golferpaul]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:33 AM, Tim_Gavrich said:

What I question is otherwise able-bodied golfers' reliance on carts, which has various causes both related and unrelated to golfers' decisions about how they're going to get around the course.

 

 

Why do you care what other golfers choose to do?  Thousands, if not millions, of very healthy young golfers CHOOSE to ride a cart.  Why is that?  It doesn't matter. It's their choice.

 

Why do you feel like you should tell others how to play golf?  Would you be offended if people began to post about the evils of walking?  Walking is NOT better than cart riding and cart riding is NOT better than walking.  It's like comparing apples to oranges.  

[klebs01]

41 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Why do you care what other golfers choose to do?  Thousands, if not millions, of very healthy young golfers CHOOSE to ride a cart.  Why is that?  It doesn't matter. It's their choice.

 

Why do you feel like you should tell others how to play golf?  Would you be offended if people began to post about the evils of walking?  Walking is NOT better than cart riding and cart riding is NOT better than walking.  It's like comparing apples to oranges.  

Carts do impact non-users. They do a ton of damage to the course and drive up maintenance costs. Have you managed the costs to maintain or replace cart paths? Those are only necessary for cart users. If carts were limited to only those that need them there wouldn’t be a need for paths.  That’s a lot of time and money saved as well as improved playing condition. 

[Golferpaul]

50 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

Carts do impact non-users. They do a ton of damage to the course and drive up maintenance costs. Have you managed the costs to maintain or replace cart paths? Those are only necessary for cart users. If carts were limited to only those that need them there wouldn’t be a need for paths.  That’s a lot of time and money saved as well as improved playing condition. 

Or we could just have slow greens by mowing them twice per week.  Look how much money that would save? 

 

Or we could reduce the size of all golf courses to reduce mowing and fertilizer costs.  Look how much money that would save.

 

Or we could save money by having walkers fill their divots rather than hiring workers to fill divots (walkers do impact non-walkers.)

 

If your goal is to tell others how to play golf there is no limit to the number of ideas we can generate. 

 

If your goal is to save money, there are hundreds of ideas we could explore.