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PUTTER LIE ANGLE: What Lie Angle Should the Putter Be?


PingPoncho

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Well this can all be figured out with a simple fitting but most people don't bother.

 

OEM's have a "standard" spec setup and again most people don't bother getting fit so they play standard even if it's wrong for them. 

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i disagree I putt best with a putter 68*-69* and I am fairly tall at 6'2" I use a 33.5" putter. If I use a putter that is to upright the toe of the putter is off the ground and i miss putts left. I was fitted years ago and found that I was playing a putter too long and to upright. My current gamer is 69*. 

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38 minutes ago, PingPoncho said:

I don't think most pro shop even have a lie angle machine to adjust the lie angle. They probably don't have a laser to check where you are aiming the putter. They don't have a putt lab device either. Without equipment like this, no wonder putting suffers.

 

I'm pretty sure most shops have a lot and lie tool they generally offer bending services in their pro shop. 

 

34 minutes ago, PingPoncho said:

Where can you buy a putter where you can adjust the lie angle without using specialized equipment?

Does Ping adjust lie angles on non Ping putters?

 

 

Online pretty much every site you order from now offers spec customization from OEM's to independent golf shops with websites and you need the proper vice and bending bar or you can ruin the neck or break it. 

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Lie angle is something that I've thought WAY too much about. I think the overall premise of the OP's video is correct IF, and this is a big if, your intention is to have the putter shaft at the same angle as your forearms. 

 

Whenever you hear instructors talking about putting posture, that's usually one of the standard bits of advice: have the putter grip run through your palm and the shaft run parallel to your forearms. I do believe that for most people, this will result in a more upright lie angle than the 70 degrees that most putters are set at these days (with the exception of SIK putters, I believe). When I was fit on SAM, it put me in a 72 degree putter. When I video myself, the shaft runs exactly parallel with my forearms.

 

Think about armlock putters. Other than SIK's extreme upright putters, most are designed to be played in the same posture as a standard-length putter (with forward press, obviously). Instead of ending just at your hands, the putter grip extends up your forearm. Non-SIK armlock putters are almost universally sold at just a touch more upright than their standard-length counterparts. Odyssey's are 72 degrees. Bettinardi 71. Cobra 72. Evnroll 71. I think Ping is the exception as their OTR lie angle is 70 degrees in both standard and armlock configurations.

 

I wonder about why standard, OTR putters are almost all set at 70 degrees these days. Scotty's used to be at 71, right? YES putters were 72 degrees. What changed?

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7 hours ago, MaineMariner said:

I wonder about why standard, OTR putters are almost all set at 70 degrees these days. Scotty's used to be at 71, right? YES putters were 72 degrees. What changed?

Because guys like Stan Utley and Scotty Cameron have been convincing people for years now that they ought to stand a long way from the ball, hands low and swing the putter around them like a "miniature golf swing". Basically trying to undo the entire modern evolution of putting strokes that happened between roughly 1985 and 2005. They've got golfers thinking there's something wrong with simply lining up over the ball and rocking your shoulders back and forth.

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This may be a stupid question but: Wouldn't a persons lie angle be variable depending on their position? As said above, the position of the ball closer or farther away, how much you bend over, arm position...all will affect the lie angle. So unless a person has the exact putting position, their lie angle will be slightly different by several degrees. So, couldn't we adapt to different lie angle putters by by adjusting the variables above? Would it be correct to say that when setting up to putt as long as the putter head is flat to the ground and not toe up or down, that the lie angle is correct?

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3 hours ago, rlb4 said:

This may be a stupid question but: Wouldn't a persons lie angle be variable depending on their position? As said above, the position of the ball closer or farther away, how much you bend over, arm position...all will affect the lie angle. So unless a person has the exact putting position, their lie angle will be slightly different by several degrees. So, couldn't we adapt to different lie angle putters by by adjusting the variables above? Would it be correct to say that when setting up to putt as long as the putter head is flat to the ground and not toe up or down, that the lie angle is correct?

If you buy a new putter and change your address position, posture and therefore your aim and stroke just to make the lie angle look "correct" you've got the wrong end of the stick. The purpose of a putter having a specific lie angle is so it works well with whatever your best setup might be. You don't change the setup to suit the putter's lie angle you change the lie angle to suit your setup.

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12 minutes ago, North Butte said:

If you buy a new putter and change your address position, posture and therefore your aim and stroke just to make the lie angle look "correct" you've got the wrong end of the stick. The purpose of a putter having a specific lie angle is so it works well with whatever your best setup might be. You don't change the setup to suit the putter's lie angle you change the lie angle to suit your setup.

I understand that. I didn't mean that we SHOULD adapt to the lie angle of the putter but that we kind of do adapt by the slight changes in our positions. My setup is a little variable. Sometimes I'm more or less upright which changes what lie angle would be "fitted" for me. I guess what I'm asking is if I am in a comfortable putting position AND the putter head is flat, not toe up or down, would that be a proper lie angle?

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/29/2022 at 2:05 PM, North Butte said:

Because guys like Stan Utley and Scotty Cameron have been convincing people for years now that they ought to stand a long way from the ball, hands low and swing the putter around them like a "miniature golf swing". Basically trying to undo the entire modern evolution of putting strokes that happened between roughly 1985 and 2005. They've got golfers thinking there's something wrong with simply lining up over the ball and rocking your shoulders back and forth.

Interesting observation.  The best putters on tour between 1985 and 2005 were Crenshaw and Faxon.  Take a look at how they setup, the putter length and lie.  Both putt much as they pitch and chip.  Similar motion with quieter legs than chipping/pitching.  
And it’s not only Utley and Cameron advocating this motion.  Look at David Orr and Mike Shannon, two of the top putting instructors who have also collected the largest databases of pro’s and am’s.  Very similar and not a rocking motion.  

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For many years I putted with a very upright Bullseye, and did it just as explained in the video. Grip in the lifeline, shaft in line with my forearm. I went away from that putter 20 years ago and ended playing more standard putters.  What happened at first was that I gripping the putter the same, but then the heel of the putter was off the ground, I looked like Steve Stricker.  That is all fine if you get used to it, however, and its a bit however, when you do this and have loft on your putter, a "square" face actually will launch the ball to the right.  Which then make you start aiming left.   You can also deloft the putter at address, but that brings in other issues.  It is also exaggerated the longer the putt. 

 

Eventually I ended up changing my grip slightly and hold the putter much more in the fingers than I did before.  I actually feel I have better touch this way, and then the putter also sits flat on the ground. 

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I take my stance and my arms and grip are relaxed and I could stay in that position for ten minutes without cramping up anywhere, and the putter sits flush at 66*. The putter should fit you not the other way around 

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2 hours ago, mogc60 said:

I take my stance and my arms and grip are relaxed and I could stay in that position for ten minutes without cramping up anywhere, and the putter sits flush at 66*. The putter should fit you not the other way around 

I agree. When I take my most comfortable and natural feeling address position the putter would need to be about about 78-79 degrees in order to sit flush with the ground.

 

Since putters with that lie angle are for all intents practically impossible to obtain, I just keep using my optimum posture and hand position and do the Steve Stricker toe-down thing. 

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On 4/29/2022 at 4:54 AM, PingPoncho said:

Do you agree or disagree with this video?

 

Could this be why we have problems with putting?

 

 

 


What is missing in this video analysis is the optimal elbow bend angle.  Look at Mike Shannon’s research into this.  He recommends an upper to lower arm angle of 135 degrees (and in this video that angle is almost straight to 180 degrees).

 

Shannon’s research shows that anytime that arm angle is less than 135 degrees, the (1) rotation of the putter head starts to increase too much and (2) consistency of the path of the putter starts to decrease.  Shannon’s research has been out there for years, but seems to be mostly better players that setup to his recommendations.  Both my path and putter head rotation became more consistent once I adopted a longer putter, flatter lie angle and elbow bend angle of approx 135 degrees.  Hope this help,

 

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On 5/28/2022 at 10:59 AM, mogc60 said:

I take my stance and my arms and grip are relaxed and I could stay in that position for ten minutes without cramping up anywhere, and the putter sits flush at 66*. The putter should fit you not the other way around 

But do you repeatedly return the clubface to the square position and hit the ball straight with that stance? That's the second part of the equation.

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47 minutes ago, tatertot said:

But do you repeatedly return the clubface to the square position and hit the ball straight with that stance? That's the second part of the equation.

My putting has been the best part of my game for 30 years and I’ve been a plus handicap longer than that. My point in my post is that you’re setup should dictate the putters lie and length, not some predetermined theory 

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45 minutes ago, mogc60 said:

My putting has been the best part of my game for 30 years and I’ve been a plus handicap longer than that. My point in my post is that you’re setup should dictate the putters lie and length, not some predetermined theory 

If your setup is CORRECT it should dictate putter lie and length. Yours obviously is. If your setup is causing a repeated miss, then it could be fixed through a fitting.

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1 hour ago, roundersmitty said:

100% disagree with the video for most people. All the OTR putters come 70-71 and 80-90% of people I see putt with toe up.  I believe 68 would be a better fit for most people. 

 

Yeah but I also think a lot of people don't have a proper setup/posture in a fitting. 

 

But when I do see people mentioning specs I am seeing a lot of flatter or more upright than "standard". 

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9 hours ago, roundersmitty said:

100% disagree with the video for most people. All the OTR putters come 70-71 and 80-90% of people I see putt with toe up.  I believe 68 would be a better fit for most people. 

I didn't watch the video but I'll say this about how people I play with set up to putt.

 

The guys I've played regularly with who tend to switch putters a lot will absolutely change their setup, address position and posture every time they switch putters. They'll contort their setup however they need to in order to get the sole level with the ground and their hands all the way on the butt of the grip. 

 

It is absolutely the norm for amateur golfers, and particularly hack putters, to let the length and lie of the putter dictate their setup. Not the other way 'round. 

 

When I started playing golf, at one of my initial golf lessons the pro showed me on video that I was starting the ball on line and rolling it end-over-end very nicely. He said if I ever struggled with putting, I should go back and look at the video and make sure I never deviated from that basic setup. 

 

He said other than reading greens, there were two requirements for good putting.

 

1) Find a setup that lets you put a good roll on the ball in the direction you are aiming.

2) Maintain that setup without letting your eye position, hand position or posture change over time.

 

I'd say most golfers do not buy into that system. They think good putting depends on finding the perfect putter and then figuring out how to make putts with the darned thing. Cart before horse, definitely. 

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  • 2 months later...

Really interesting, thank you for sharing this video.

 

Independent of this video I have recently switched to a 78 lie angle putter and have never putted better or felt more comfortable over the ball. 

 

For reference I am 6'4 and putter is 36". I was a 12, but according to shotscope I was similar to a 5 tee to green, and worse than a 25 at putting, which is why I made such a dramatic switch looking for something, anything, and already I am down to a 10 after only a handful of rounds.

 

Maybe it's a honeymoon period but what he is saying makes sense from my limited experience so far.

 

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I dont know what it should be, but I know that people who buy used putters should get the L/L of a used putter checked after purchase.

 

I've had several that were off spec by 2-3* and one as much as 6* whether by the maker's issue or by adjustment from the previous owner.

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  • 7 months later...
On 8/1/2022 at 9:16 AM, Tallballer said:

Really interesting, thank you for sharing this video.

 

Independent of this video I have recently switched to a 78 lie angle putter and have never putted better or felt more comfortable over the ball. 

 

For reference I am 6'4 and putter is 36". I was a 12, but according to shotscope I was similar to a 5 tee to green, and worse than a 25 at putting, which is why I made such a dramatic switch looking for something, anything, and already I am down to a 10 after only a handful of rounds.

 

Maybe it's a honeymoon period but what he is saying makes sense from my limited experience so far.

 

 

I am 6'3 and more upright putter helps me tremendously.  35" inches and 78 degrees.  I was a good putter before changing, averaging less than 30 putts a round as a 1.3 hdcp.  However the change to a longer more upright putter has made putting much more comfortable.  Before the change I would have a really bad round or two every so often, I have far fewer of those bad putting days.

It hasn't moved my average putts per round really at all.  Maybe .1 or .2 putts per round.  That however is less a function of the change in putting style and more a result of how close you hit the ball.  You're just not going to make a lot outside of 10 feet regardless of the putter.  For me it is just easier to roll the ball on my intended line.  Sure I could "do" it the other way but it took more mental effort to repeat it through an entire round/week/month/season.   The change has made it possible to spend less time on the putting green because it was easier to repeat my stroke.

 

It does take some effort initially to adjust the speed, but direction, for me, just fell way more natural and easier to achieve.

If it "doesn't" matter or is a bunch of nonsense...   then why does the 10 degree putter lie angle rule exist?

Now all that being said... it is not for everyone... some people just don't get along with that style of putting and need more angle to feel comfortable.  I feel for us taller folk it is just more comfortable.  I don't feel like I am using a junior club on the putting green any more.

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