Ball moved, who replaces

[Augster]

Hey,

Players ball in fairway. Ball is accidentally kicked by another player who is outside influence. 
 

Player who accidentally kicked ball replaces it where he thought it was. 
 

Does the Player himself have to replace it as the OI didn’t know exactly or does the player always have to replace it. 
 

How about match play? Same scenario but the player who kicked the ball (during search) is the other players partner?

 

Thanks. 

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, Augster said:

Hey,

Players ball in fairway. Ball is accidentally kicked by another player who is outside influence. 
 

Player who accidentally kicked ball replaces it where he thought it was. 
 

Does the Player himself have to replace it as the OI didn’t know exactly or does the player always have to replace it. 
 

How about match play? Same scenario but the player who kicked the ball (during search) is the other players partner?

 

Thanks. 

For first instance, outside influence, see Rule 9.6 and Rule 14.2b(1).

For second instance, see Rule 7.4 and Rule 14.2b(1).

[Augster]

In 9.6 it doesn’t say who replaces it. It doesn’t matter?

[Mr. Bean]

23 minutes ago, Augster said:

In 9.6 it doesn’t say who replaces it. It doesn’t matter?

 

Did you read Rule 14.2b(1) as instructed by rogolf?

 

(1) Who May Replace Ball. The player’s ball must be replaced under the Rules only by:

• The player, or
• Any person who lifted the ball or caused it to move (even if that person was not allowed to do so under the Rules).

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Did you read Rule 14.2b(1) as instructed by rogolf?

 

(1) Who May Replace Ball. The player’s ball must be replaced under the Rules only by:

• The player, or
• Any person who lifted the ball or caused it to move (even if that person was not allowed to do so under the Rules).

I was still on the course. I have a few minutes now. 
 

So, anyone who accidentally moved a ball can replace the ball accidentally moved even if they didn’t see it?  
 

Now that I have a few minutes…

 

Two players were walking and looking where their balls should be in the fairway. One guy, looking further ahead doesn’t see the other players ball until he’s already kicked it about 4-6 feet. 
 

He tells the other player he accidentally moved his ball, picks up the ball, and puts it back about where he thought it was. 
 

Is that the proper procedure? What if the person that moved it “thought” it was in a divot or some other horrendous lie? If he had seen the lie, he wouldn’t have moved it accidentally. 
 

I thought the 2019 rules fixed this and a ball accidentally moved was always replaced by the player who’s ball it was? 
 

Or this happened last week to me. 1st and 2nd holes parallel each other. I’m walking toward my ball in the left rough that I can pretty much see. I’m about 80 yards away when someone from 2 drives over, picks it up, looks at it, I yell “Hey”, they realize it wasn’t their ball, then they replace it. 
 

He drives over and says, “I put it back in the same spot” and drives off. Because I know it isn’t the same spot(I could see my ball before and the guy put it in longer rough that I now can’t see it), obviously I get to replace it to where I thought it was. 
 

What if I hadn’t seen it at all? Do I just have to trust that he put it back in the “correct spot”?

 

Again, I thought the 2019 rules change put the replacing of a moved ball solely on the player and the player’s judgment. But from 14.2, it seems the player can replace it, OR if the original mover of the ball replaces it, the player doesn’t get to replace it. It’s a ball in play. 
 

Very odd. 
 

Thanks for the help!

[LeoLeo99]

14 minutes ago, Augster said:

I was still on the course. I have a few minutes now. 
 

So, anyone who accidentally moved a ball can replace the ball accidentally moved even if they didn’t see it?  
 

Now that I have a few minutes…

 

Two players were walking and looking where their balls should be in the fairway. One guy, looking further ahead doesn’t see the other players ball until he’s already kicked it about 4-6 feet. 
 

He tells the other player he accidentally moved his ball, picks up the ball, and puts it back about where he thought it was. 
 

Is that the proper procedure? What if the person that moved it “thought” it was in a divot or some other horrendous lie? If he had seen the lie, he wouldn’t have moved it accidentally. 
 

I thought the 2019 rules fixed this and a ball accidentally moved was always replaced by the player who’s ball it was? 
 

Or this happened last week to me. 1st and 2nd holes parallel each other. I’m walking toward my ball in the left rough that I can pretty much see. I’m about 80 yards away when someone from 2 drives over, picks it up, looks at it, I yell “Hey”, they realize it wasn’t their ball, then they replace it. 
 

He drives over and says, “I put it back in the same spot” and drives off. Because I know it isn’t the same spot(I could see my ball before and the guy put it in longer rough that I now can’t see it), obviously I get to replace it to where I thought it was. 
 

What if I hadn’t seen it at all? Do I just have to trust that he put it back in the “correct spot”?

 

Again, I thought the 2019 rules change put the replacing of a moved ball solely on the player and the player’s judgment. But from 14.2, it seems the player can replace it, OR if the original mover of the ball replaces it, the player doesn’t get to replace it. It’s a ball in play. 
 

Very odd. 
 

Thanks for the help!

It's inherently an imprecise situation.  The ball needs to be replaced the best guess as to the correct spot and you play on.  It's up the player to confirm the correct spot based on the facts at hand.  If you didn't see it and some other guy moved and said he moved it back, you have to take him at his word.  What else can you do but trust that he put it back in the correct spot.   

[Mr. Bean]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

I was still on the course. I have a few minutes now. 
 

So, anyone who accidentally moved a ball can replace the ball accidentally moved even if they didn’t see it?  
 

Now that I have a few minutes…

 

Two players were walking and looking where their balls should be in the fairway. One guy, looking further ahead doesn’t see the other players ball until he’s already kicked it about 4-6 feet. 
 

He tells the other player he accidentally moved his ball, picks up the ball, and puts it back about where he thought it was. 
 

Is that the proper procedure? What if the person that moved it “thought” it was in a divot or some other horrendous lie? If he had seen the lie, he wouldn’t have moved it accidentally. 
 

I thought the 2019 rules fixed this and a ball accidentally moved was always replaced by the player who’s ball it was? 
 

Or this happened last week to me. 1st and 2nd holes parallel each other. I’m walking toward my ball in the left rough that I can pretty much see. I’m about 80 yards away when someone from 2 drives over, picks it up, looks at it, I yell “Hey”, they realize it wasn’t their ball, then they replace it. 
 

He drives over and says, “I put it back in the same spot” and drives off. Because I know it isn’t the same spot(I could see my ball before and the guy put it in longer rough that I now can’t see it), obviously I get to replace it to where I thought it was. 
 

What if I hadn’t seen it at all? Do I just have to trust that he put it back in the “correct spot”?

 

Again, I thought the 2019 rules change put the replacing of a moved ball solely on the player and the player’s judgment. But from 14.2, it seems the player can replace it, OR if the original mover of the ball replaces it, the player doesn’t get to replace it. It’s a ball in play. 
 

Very odd. 
 

Thanks for the help!

 

It seems to me you are trying to create problems that do not exist.

[Augster]

22 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It seems to me you are trying to create problems that do not exist.

No problems. Just seems odd that a guy that didn’t see my ball gets to choose the location and the lie for me. Opens up a can of worms of judgement calls. 
 

On an accidentally moved ball it should be: My ball, my choice. 

[Colin L]

`I don't get it.  Someone didn't see your ball and accidentally kicked it.  He obviously doesn't know the exact spot to replace it on but will know the small area where it lay.    Let's say within 20 centimetres.   Let's say you were 100 metres away when this happened but of course you didn't know it happened until the guy tells you he kicked a ball but put  it back as best he could where it had been.  Neither of you knows that the ball is on the exact spot but it is certainly very close to it because the finder knows where his foot was when he kicked the ball. It might be in a better lie than it had been; it might be in a worse one.  Think positive and assume the former.   From 100 metres or more away you can't possibly estimate better given that you didn't even know what was happening and so couldn't  even take a line on it.   How about just thanking the guy for finding your ball?  You might have lost it otherwise.   

 

That's the second time in quick succession I've suggested you need to look on the bright side.  😁    Don't over-think.  Just enjoy!

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, Augster said:

No problems. Just seems odd that a guy that didn’t see my ball gets to choose the location and the lie for me. Opens up a can of worms of judgement calls. 
 

On an accidentally moved ball it should be: My ball, my choice. 

 

How would you choose and what kind of info would you use for choosing? As Colin wrote, you might be considerably farther from your ball than the guy who moved it so what makes you think you would be more objective in replacing your ball than the guy who was on the spot?

[antip]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

No problems. Just seems odd that a guy that didn’t see my ball gets to choose the location and the lie for me. Opens up a can of worms of judgement calls. 
 

On an accidentally moved ball it should be: My ball, my choice. 

Here's where integrity comes in. It is the player's choice if he/she believes the spot chosen by the original ball mover is incorrect. 

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, antip said:

Here's where integrity comes in. It is the player's choice if he/she believes the spot chosen by the original ball mover is incorrect. 

 

And that belief cannot be based only on a bad lie but there must be solid grounds to dispute the spot.

[Augster]

Oh, I’m all for the guy that moved the ball giving input as to where it most likely was lying as he was the one that moved it. 
 

But for actual placement, when neither of us knows the lie, that should be the player’s job. Not some random FC or OA that may or may not have a vested interest in me having a bad lie. 
 

If someone accidentally moved my ball, I’ll place it myself thanks very much. The OA or FC can point me to a small area, but I’ll handle the placement.

 

This really should be in the rules. My first statement after someone says they accidentally moved my ball will be, “Thanks, toss it here”. 🙂

 

 

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

Oh, I’m all for the guy that moved the ball giving input as to where it most likely was lying as he was the one that moved it. 
 

But for actual placement, when neither of us knows the lie, that should be the player’s job. Not some random FC or OA that may or may not have a vested interest in me having a bad lie. 
 

If someone accidentally moved my ball, I’ll place it myself thanks very much. The OA or FC can point me to a small area, but I’ll handle the placement.

 

This really should be in the rules. My first statement after someone says they accidentally moved my ball will be, “Thanks, toss it here”. 🙂

 

 

 

Have you bothered to even look at 14.2?

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=14&subrulenum=2

[Augster]

2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Have you bothered to even look at 14.2?

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=14&subrulenum=2

Yes I have. I guess I don’t get what you’re getting at. 
 

(1) Who May Replace Ball: The player’s ball must be replaced under the Rules only by:
    •    The player, or
    •    Any person who lifted the ball or caused it to move (even if that person was not allowed to do so under the Rules).
 

So the ball can be replaced by the player, OR anyone that moved the ball. If I ask them to toss it to me BEFORE they replace it, I’ll be the one doing the placing. They are guessing anyway. If they had seen the ball, I assume they wouldn’t have moved it, and if they did, the movement wouldn’t have been accidental. 
 

Also in 14.2

 

c. Spot Where Ball Is Replaced
The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated), 
 

I’ll do the estimating with input from the guy/gal that moved it. And then I’ll place it on that estimated spot. 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Yes I have. I guess I don’t get what you’re getting at. 
 

(1) Who May Replace Ball: The player’s ball must be replaced under the Rules only by:
    •    The player, or
    •    Any person who lifted the ball or caused it to move (even if that person was not allowed to do so under the Rules).
 

So the ball can be replaced by the player, OR anyone that moved the ball. If I ask them to toss it to me BEFORE they replace it, I’ll be the one doing the placing. They are guessing anyway. If they had seen the ball, I assume they wouldn’t have moved it, and if they did, the movement wouldn’t have been accidental. 
 

Also in 14.2

 

c. Spot Where Ball Is Replaced
The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated), 
 

I’ll do the estimating with input from the guy/gal that moved it. And then I’ll place it on that estimated spot. 
 

 

If you feel that your ball has been replaced on other than its original spot you are free to replace it yourself. But here the integrity comes into picture, as explained earlier. You may not replace the ball again just because you do not like the lie but you need to be certain that ball has not been replaced on its original spot.

[Colin L]

The trouble with your argument is that it sounds - wrongly no doubt - an argument for the player to select a more favourable lie.  

 

Mention has been made of the integrity of the player should he decide to place the ball himself.  The integrity of the other player has to be relied on too in that you are depending on him to do an honest job of replacing and not deliberately choose a difficult lie in the hope of disadvantaging another competitor.  As if anyone would.

[sui generis]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

I’ll do the estimating with input from the guy/gal that moved it. And then I’ll place it on that estimated spot. 

 

The "mover" would usually have the better notion of where the ball was before they moved it. That's why the Rule says what it says. If the rules makers wanted only the mover or the player to replace, they would have said so.

[Augster]

It’s one of the points I’m trying to get into the next rule revision. It’d make it black and white as to who replaces it. The player. 
 

I think I know the answer to this, guy drives over from another hole, sees your ball and picks it up. You call

out to him and wave that it’s your ball. He sets it back down and drives off. 
 

You’re now stuck with the lie?

 

Same situation, but the guy, upon seeing you, reaches down below the cart and drops it from 1” before driving away. 
 

You get to replace that ball, correct?

 

It just isn’t fair or equitable. Situation 1, the player is stuck with whatever lie that guy gave you. Situation 2, the player must replace the ball using his best judgement as to location. 
 

Wouldn’t it be much simpler to make the Rule any moved ball must be replaced by the player? The player takes all information available then estimates and places. 
 

I’ll see if I can get this written into the 2023 Rules Revision. 

[antip]

12 hours ago, Augster said:

It’s one of the points I’m trying to get into the next rule revision. It’d make it black and white as to who replaces it. The player. 
 

I think I know the answer to this, guy drives over from another hole, sees your ball and picks it up. You call

out to him and wave that it’s your ball. He sets it back down and drives off. 
 

You’re now stuck with the lie?

 

Same situation, but the guy, upon seeing you, reaches down below the cart and drops it from 1” before driving away. 
 

You get to replace that ball, correct?

 

It just isn’t fair or equitable. Situation 1, the player is stuck with whatever lie that guy gave you. Situation 2, the player must replace the ball using his best judgement as to location. 
 

Wouldn’t it be much simpler to make the Rule any moved ball must be replaced by the player? The player takes all information available then estimates and places. 
 

I’ll see if I can get this written into the 2023 Rules Revision. 

Good luck with that. I see it as a change open to abuse - a de facto preferred lies for the unscrupulous. If that person intended to replace the ball, yes you are stuck with it. If that person got it right - that is as it should be (play as it lies, that is what your previous stroke delivered). If that person got it wrong and you have any evidence of that, you are required to correct. It is more likely, IMO, that the outside influence replaces the ball into a better lie than the original than worsen it - but there are no guarantees there.

Also keep in mind how this arose. If that other person was in search for their own ball, they risked breaching Rule 7.3 if the ball was theirs and they had not marked. This is one of the more abused rules in the game in regular play. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by antip
Edited out my glitch (senior moment?)

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

It’s one of the points I’m trying to get into the next rule revision. It’d make it black and white as to who replaces it. The player. 
 

I think I know the answer to this, guy drives over from another hole, sees your ball and picks it up. You call

out to him and wave that it’s your ball. He sets it back down and drives off. 
 

You’re now stuck with the lie?

 

 

You either are not reading what others write or not comprehending.

 

No, you are not stuck with the lie IF AND ONLY IF you are certain the ball was not replaced on the spot it was lifted from.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, antip said:

If that other person was in search for their own ball, they breached Rule 7.3 and if the rules are being applied correctly, get a one stroke penalty. This is one of the more abused rules in the game in regular play. 

 

Have you got an official ruling on that? I ask as I cannot read the Rule that way:

 

'If the player lifts his or her ball under this Rule when not reasonably necessary to identify it (except on the putting green where the player may lift under Rule 13.1b), fails to mark the spot of the ball before lifting it or cleans it when not allowed, the player gets one penalty stroke.'

 

The way I read this is that 'the ball' in the latter sentence refers to the player's own ball, not to any ball lifted. If that would be meant to apply to any ball then it would not be 'the' ball but 'a' ball.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Have you got an official ruling on that? I ask as I cannot read the Rule that way:

 

'If the player lifts his or her ball under this Rule when not reasonably necessary to identify it (except on the putting green where the player may lift under Rule 13.1b), fails to mark the spot of the ball before lifting it or cleans it when not allowed, the player gets one penalty stroke.'

 

The way I read this is that 'the ball' in the latter sentence refers to the player's own ball, not to any ball lifted. If that would be meant to apply to any ball then it would not be 'the' ball but 'a' ball.

I agree the mark before lifting requirement is only when a player is looking for their own ball - hence my words "If that other person was in search for their own ball..". So I suggest we are on the same page.

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, antip said:

I agree the mark before lifting requirement is only when a player is looking for their own ball - hence my words "If that other person was in search for their own ball..". So I suggest we are on the same page.

 

But you are suggesting that a player searching for their own ball would get a penalty if did not mark the spot of a ball that is NOT theirs. Or am I reading something wrong here?

[Colin L]

9 minutes ago, antip said:

I agree the mark before lifting requirement is only when a player is looking for their own ball - hence my words "If that other person was in search for their own ball..". So I suggest we are on the same page.

It comes across as if you are saying that if I lift a ball in a search without marking, I get a penalty even if it turns out not to be my ball, that I have breached 7.3  because I was searching for my own ball.    But I know fine you don't mean that.

[antip]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

It comes across as if you are saying that if I lift a ball in a search without marking, I get a penalty even if it turns out not to be my ball, that I have breached 7.3  because I was searching for my own ball.    But I know fine you don't mean that.

Yes, I was not expressing myself clearly, apologies for any confusion caused. The Augster is raising scenarios of an outside influence moving your ball. The idea I was seeking to include, but did it poorly, was the notion that the outside influence that makes a habit of lifting a ball while in search is risking getting pinged. I have been seeing that frequently recently on the course.

[jimbo123]

Curious what the reason is behind 7.3 not applying a penalty if the ball ends up not being the player's.   If the rule's purpose is to encourage carefulness/ensure balls return to the right spot, wouldn't that be better served by penalising the behaviour regardless of the outcome?  Is there some other principle at play here?  

[antip]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

But you are suggesting that a player searching for their own ball would get a penalty if did not mark the spot of a ball that is NOT theirs. Or am I reading something wrong here?

My glitch, as noted in the response to Colin. I edited/corrected the original post.

[antip]

24 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Curious what the reason is behind 7.3 not applying a penalty if the ball ends up not being the player's.   If the rule's purpose is to encourage carefulness/ensure balls return to the right spot, wouldn't that be better served by penalising the behaviour regardless of the outcome?  Is there some other principle at play here?  

Two observations: first is this is the broad 9.6 principle of no penalty; and making it a penalty would be a solid disincentive to help anyone search.

[jimbo123]

22 minutes ago, antip said:

Two observations: first is this is the broad 9.6 principle of no penalty; and making it a penalty would be a solid disincentive to help anyone search.

 

Don't follow, sorry.  If you are searching for your own ball, you should mark any ball you lift to identify (exactly as 7.3 states in its body), and I'm suggesting that failure to do so should perhaps be a penalty regardless of the outcome of the identification.   Not sure how this would disincentivise searching for another player's ball (penalty wouldn't apply), or what the relevance of 9.6 is?