Is it external rotation all the way down? Also, leading with the elbow question.

[Trippels]

Most every good player will externaly rotate the trail arm in transition and into the downswing, allthough the amount varies between players.

 

What I'm not sure about is wether there is any internal rotation of the trail arm going into impact, say from when you've gotten to the delivery position with a significant amount of external rotation, does anyone then release this and move towards internal?

Or is the external rotation amount achieved in the downswing, held all the way through impact while the wrists fire?

 

Also, as a third option. Is there any good players who increase the external rotation all the way down and through?

 

I tried all of these today, at very low speed so I got them more or less correct. 

Increasing the external rotation all the way down and through lead to a very open impact position, sort of like DJ or Hovland.

 

Increasing external rotation in transition, and then just swinging through, looked more textbook. Like Tiger or Korda. Not much difference visually when trying to let the elbow move towards internal into impact, but the reason I've questioning if it should has to do with consistency.

 

And as an additional question, when you lead with the trail elbow, as Monte suggests for example. Are you supposed externally rotate the trail elbow as it moves down and forwards (leads)? 

I tried this because I need to get my arms to fire earlier and get my left arm off the chest more. But focusing on the left arm doesn't work well for me.

When I lead with the trail elbow while externally rotating it, then my left arm also seems to get off the chest well.

[glk]

Yes 

 

[Trippels]

9 minutes ago, glk said:

Yes 

 

So from that I gathered he thinks it should be externally rotate in transition and early downswing, then maintain that external rotation as the body rotates the club through.

 

So no internal rotation into impact, and no increase of external rotation from the top all the way through impact.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Trippels

[glk]

19 minutes ago, Trippels said:

So from that I gathered he thinks it should be externally rotate in transition and early downswing, then maintain that external rotation as the body rotates the club through.

 

So no internal rotation into impact, and no increase of external rotation from the top all the way through impact.

Yes but there are going to be degrees that folks do this - some more, some less.    The improper use of the shoulders is rarely discussed.   Tyler has plenty of video on his member site on this plus other things.   Unfortunately shoulder movement can’t be measured today so you won’t find any 3D data.    
 

having the trail shoulder going internal through release is typical of the flip roll.   Both forearms are supinating from around p5 ish with the trail forearm starting to pronate just before impact - going internal with the shoulder works against the supination with pronation taking over to close the face and usually late in the swing and quickly - leading to a dispersion issue.

 

can you find pro that don’t do this - likely though I can’t think of any off the top of my head. And if they do it is not as severe as amateurs and is accompanied with lots of other really good things like tillts, rotation, wrists etc.

Edited May 20, 2022 by glk

[Trippels]

2 minutes ago, glk said:

Yes but there are going to be degrees that folks do this - some more, some less.    The improper use of the shoulders is rarely discussed.   Tyler has plenty of video on his member site on this plus other things.   Unfortunately shoulder movement can’t be measured today so you won’t find any 3D data.    
 

having the trail shoulder going internal through release is typical of the flip roll.   Both forearms are supinating from around p5 ish with the trail forearm starting to pronate just before impact - going internal with the shoulder works against the supination with pronation taking over to close the face and usually late in the swing and quickly - leading to a dispersion issue.

 

can you find pro that don’t do this - likely though I can’t think only any off the top of my head. And if they do it is not as severe as amateurs and is accompanied with lots of other really good things like tillts, rotation, wrists etc.

What do you mean by shoulder going external/internal? Because when I say externaly rotate trail elbow, I think I might technically be referring to external shoulder rotation, but it's just easier to think of the elbow directly in context of the golf swing. 

I'm not talking about forearm supination/pronation in the first post.

[glk]

5 minutes ago, Trippels said:

What do you mean by shoulder going external/internal? Because when I say externaly rotate trail elbow, I think I might technically be referring to external shoulder rotation, but it's just easier to think of the elbow directly in context of the golf swing. 

I'm not talking about forearm supination/pronation in the first post.

Elbow doesn’t go internal and external.  Joint only flex’s and extends.  Shoulder is what cause the movement of the elbow otherwise.

Edited May 21, 2022 by glk

[Trippels]

2 minutes ago, glk said:

Elbow doesn’t go internal and external.  Joint only flex’s and extends.  Shoulder is what cause the movement of the elbow otherwise.

Sure, just easier to think about from the corresponding movement of the elbow in space.

[golfarb1]

The video by Tyler Ferrell on the “ wipe “ move that was posted by GLK

represents an excellent general discussion .

Here are more specifics 

1. Trail shoulder external rotation means that the upper arm bone ( humerus ) rotates within the shoulder joint 

Because the other end ( distal) of the humerus bone is one the bones forming the elbow joint , trail shoulder external rotation  will automatically ALSO rotate the elbow. Trail shoulder external rotation will rotate the trail elbow towards the target line and change the angle of the forearm 

2. At the top most golfers are close to their maximum range of external shoulder rotation so the additional external rotation will be small , but visible 

2. Internal rotation of the trail shoulder 

would look more like a flying elbow at top with the elbow pointing AWAY from the target line 

3. External rotation of the trail shoulder will OPEN the clubface and shallow the shaft 

4. The important point about trail shoulder external rotation is that it should be done during transition ( ending at 9:00 going down) especially during early transition . Some very good golfers do it later , but the best do it in early transition

5. if done during early transition , the trail elbow will move both further  than the hands toward the target line and faster than the hands in this period 

6. An example of internal shoulder rotation would be Mr Makaskas  move of standing up  or tipping the shaft in mid downswing . 
But for the vast majority of golfers  and for all top ball strikers  there is no need to think of internal trail shoulder rotation  in the downswing . There is internal rotation of
 after impact , but by then it is not important 
7 Because ribcage  rotation in the downswing will steepen the shaft , external rotation of the trail elbow which will shallow  the shaft, is a necessary requirement in rotational swings . The more rib cage rotation that happens in the lower downswing , the more shallowing is required . There are a number of terrific golfers who have a steeper downswing , but they also rotate their ribcage  less

8. The more that golfers pronate their lead forearm in the backswing  ( rotate the forearm so that the palm of the lead hand points more down , the more likely that the trail forearm will be vertical ( waiters tray position ) . The more vertical the trail forearm is at the top , the less amount of right shoulder external rotation is required . Jack Nicklaus who was known for his flying elbow at the top needed  more trail shoulder external rotation , while Tiger , whose trail elbow is almost vertical needs less 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by golfarb1

[Trippels]

1 minute ago, golfarb1 said:

The video by Tyler Ferrell on the “ wipe “ move that was posted by GLK

represents an excellent general discussion .

Here are more specifics 

1. Trail shoulder external rotation means that the upper arm bone ( humerus ) rotates within the shoulder joint 

Because the other end ( distal) of the humerus bone is one the bones forming the elbow joint , trail shoulder external rotation  will automatically ALSO rotate the elbow. Trail shoulder external rotation will rotate the trail elbow towards the target line and change the angle of the forearm 

2. At the top most golfers are close to their maximum range of external shoulder rotation so the additional external rotation will be small , but visible 

2. Internal rotation of the trail shoulder 

would look more like a flying elbow at top with the elbow pointing AWAY from the target line 

3. External rotation of the trail shoulder will open the clubface and shallow the shaft 

4. The important point about trail shoulder external rotation is that it should be done during transition ( ending at 9:00 going down) especially during early transition . Some very good golfers do it later , but the best do it in early transition

5. if done during early transition , the trail elbow will move both further  than the hands toward the target line and faster than the hands in this period 

6. An example of internal shoulder rotation would be Mr Makaskas  move of standing up  or tipping the shaft in mid downswing . 
But for the vast majority of golfers  and for all top ball strikers  there is no need to think of internal trail shoulder rotation  in the downswing . There is internal rotation of
 after impact , but by then it is not important 
7 Because ribcage  rotation in the downswing will steepen the shaft , external rotation of the trail elbow which will shallow  the shaft, is a necessary requirement in rotational swings . The more rib cage rotation that happens in the lower downswing , the more shallowing is required . There are a number of terrific golfers who have a steeper downswing , but they also rotate their ribcage  less

8. The more that golfers pronate their lead forearm in the backswing  ( rotate the forearm so that the palm of the lead hand points more down , the more likely that the trail forearm will be vertical ( waiters tray position ) . The more vertical the trail forearm is at the top , the less amount of right shoulder external rotation is required . Jack Nicklaus who was known for his flying elbow at the top needed  more trail elbow external rotation , while Tiger , whose trail elbow is almost vertical needs less 

 

 

So genereally, a certain amount of external rotation happens in transition, and reaches it's maximum for the given swing by left arm parallell. From that point there is no significant amount of increase in the external rotation, but also no movement towards internal rotation. (Until after impact) 

Is that correctly interpreted?

[golfarb1]

9 minutes ago, Trippels said:

So genereally, a certain amount of external rotation happens in transition, and reaches it's maximum for the given swing by left arm parallell. From that point there is no significant amount of increase in the external rotation, but also no movement towards internal rotation. (Until after impact) 

Is that correctly interpreted?

Except for a small % of players the answer is YES

. There is significant ribcage rotation from that point and  supination of the lead forearm later . 

Edited May 21, 2022 by golfarb1

[Chunkitgood]

Just saw Faldo on tv with Feherty and he was talking about when his Leadbetter swing “clicked” and his game turned around.

 

When he said his swing clicked he reached up and externally rotated his right shoulder, or so it sure looked to me.

[dap]

10 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Just saw Faldo on tv with Feherty and he was talking about when his Leadbetter swing “clicked” and his game turned around.

 

When he said his swing clicked he reached up and externally rotated his right shoulder, or so it sure looked to me.

Faldo never talked about externally rotating his right shoulder. I remember him saying when he was changing his swing that he worried about hitting someone standing too close behind him. Basically he wanted to feel the clubhead go deeper behind him in the transition which probably achieves the same externally rotated right shoulder without really focussing on the shoulder.

[golfarb1]

1 hour ago, dap said:

Faldo never talked about externally rotating his right shoulder. I remember him saying when he was changing his swing that he worried about hitting someone standing too close behind him. Basically he wanted to feel the clubhead go deeper behind him in the transition which probably achieves the same externally rotated right shoulder without really focussing on the shoulder.

The best way to perform this movement is a reaction to previous positions . But most golfers have developed ingrained incorrect movements and need to focus on the correct movement . There is obviously no one way to perform this movement . Some consider it a reaction to the weight of the clubhead moving behind the golfer, while others use the wall drill , which involves the clubhead touching an imaginary wall behind the golfer during transition . 

Mr Faldo popularized the “Faldo Drill”

in which the starting position presets both radial deviation( wrist c0ck)AND left forearm pronation . By presetting left forearm pronation , which rotates the shaft 1/4 turn , the golfer accomplishes most of moves that external right shoulder rotation accomplishes ; all that is needed is small feeling of moving the trail elbow towards the target line in transition . 

Edited May 22, 2022 by golfarb1

[MonteScheinblum]

I don’t like over doing external.  Leads to many bad things.  
 

Like I say with bout everything…..some.

[golfarb1]

A picture ( video) is worth a thousand words 
Note three things 

1. The trail forearm becomes more vertical because the trail elbow has covered more distance and has moved faster than the hands 

2. The shaft shallows

3. By the end of transition the shaft is about perpendicular to his tilted spine. This position of the shaft is ideal for rotation during the rest of the downswing 

Edited May 22, 2022 by golfarb1

[baudi]

 

 

Now are you prepared to uncock and to roll on the delivery line?

If your pivot is correct and your right elbow is set (with ext shoulder rotation) you can forget about external shoulder rotation right there.

Left arm leads into impact not right.   

Here's what you could do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVx6DPCIhd8

And this is how you do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1iflcErQsM

[KMeloney]

 

 

On 5/22/2022 at 4:16 AM, baudi said:

 

 

Now are you prepared to uncock and to roll on the delivery line?

If your pivot is correct and your right elbow is set (with ext shoulder rotation) you can forget about external shoulder rotation right there.

Left arm leads into impact not right.   

Here's what you could do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVx6DPCIhd8

And this is how you do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1iflcErQsM

 

That first video is a good example of why you should never mix coffee and Red Bull.

 

My left never leads the way in my good swings. In my bad ones, my right elbow tips out, the club steepens, and the face closes prematurely if I don't feel like I'm leading with the right elbow.

[glk]

Ext rotation is talked about a lot but you really only need some as monte said.   What you need is to manage the club and pivot to get open and maintain trail wrist extension - those are bigger deals to me. 
 

here is Tyler showing the minimum ext rotation needed as long as you rotate and have trail wrist extension.    If you can move your hand away from that position at your side then that is a bonus.    From his video trail arm external rotation at impact.

 

and blasphemy be darned you can even get lean etc with the trail arm in internal as demo by Tyler in same video.  Jim furyk is exhibit A of internal rotation and he is pretty good.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by glk

[Trippels]

So it's just a matter of making sure the movement is towards external in the downswing, although it doesn't need to be that much. The rest of shallowing, delivery etc. is a balance of wrist movement and turn/pivot.

 

Is it correct that the more external rotation you have in the downswing, the more the trail elbow will be bent, and consequently the more trail side bend you'll have at impact? So someone like Tiger only externaly rotates a small amount, but Hovland and the Chilean duo externally rotates a large amount?

[glk]

32 minutes ago, Trippels said:

So it's just a matter of making sure the movement is towards external in the downswing, although it doesn't need to be that much. The rest of shallowing, delivery etc. is a balance of wrist movement and turn/pivot.

 

Is it correct that the more external rotation you have in the downswing, the more the trail elbow will be bent, and consequently the more trail side bend you'll have at impact? So someone like Tiger only externaly rotates a small amount, but Hovland and the Chilean duo externally rotates a large amount?

That is more due to individual physique and how much trail side bend one gets thru release.    More isnt better and video can exaggerate

 

 

 

[Chunkitgood]

You guys talk about only needing “some” when most people don’t have or recognize the desirability or even the possibility of having any.

 

Why can’t Johnny play golf?

[glk]

4 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

You guys talk about only needing “some” when most people don’t have or recognize the desirability or even the possibility of having any.

 

Why can’t Johnny play golf?

How do you know what most people have or recognize?

[Chunkitgood]

I was talking about the recognition of the concept of external rotation as a discrete motion in the downswing, which may or may not be desirable and which “most people” may or may not perform to some degree.

 

The evidence most people do not have such a concept, and many other biomechanical concepts that might help people learn a good swing, is all around us.

 

Do you really think they do?

[glk]

6 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I was talking about the recognition of the concept of external rotation as a discrete motion in the downswing, which may or may not be desirable and which “most people” may or may not perform to some degree.

 

The evidence most people do not have such a concept, and many other biomechanical concepts that might help people learn a good swing, is all around us.

 

Do you really think they do?

I dont know enough about the roughly 25 million golfers in the usa to make general statements about what most know or don’t know.     

[MK7Golf21]

an interesting point about higher levels of external rotation, bowed lead wrist and extended trail wrist. If you notice Dustin Johnson has a his trail thumb wrap around the grip like a baseball bat, I'm pretty convinced he does this to protect his thumb. I ran into some of that pain before because it can put more pressure on the trail thumb in those positions through impact.

Edited May 24, 2022 by MK7Golf21

[Chunkitgood]

Looked at Furyk’s swing.  Early in the downswing his hand moves back and his elbow moves forward.  Sure looks like external shoulder rotation to me.

 

Since the idea has got in my head, have yet to see a good golfer without it or a poor one with it.

 

Humbly suggest teachers might consider telling their students about it.

 

[golfarb1]

There are two ways to shallow the shaft

1. Pronation of the lead forearm

2. trail shoulder external rotation 

3. a combination of both going down 

The more that you pronate your lead forearm  going back ( lead palm facing down) up to 1/4 turn,  the more that the trail  forearm will approach vertical(waiters tray position )  and the less the need for trail shoulder external rotation in transition .

Tigers position at the top is closer to this waiters tray position -still

Of course pronation in the backswing ( rolling of the wrists ) will lead to disaster if done too early . 

 

 

Mr Furcyk had a very non traditional swing to say the least . Although he did NOT get his right elbow on and in front of his right hip going down , 

he did maintain his bent right arm at impact . Few  amateur golfer will  be able to pull this off  and will straighten and disconnect their trail arm at impact unlike Mr. Furyck. 
 

[Trippels]

2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

There are two ways to shallow the shaft

1. Pronation of the lead forearm

2. trail shoulder external rotation 

3. a combination of both going down 

The more that you pronate your lead forearm  going back ( lead palm facing down) up to 1/4 turn,  the more that the trail  forearm will approach vertical(waiters tray position )  and the less the need for trail shoulder external rotation in transition .

Tigers position at the top is closer to this waiters tray position -still

Of course pronation in the backswing ( rolling of the wrists ) will lead to disaster if done too early . 

 

 

Mr Furcyk had a very non traditional swing to say the least . Although he did NOT get his right elbow on and in front of his right hip going down , 

he did maintain his bent right arm at impact . Few  amateur golfer will  be able to pull this off  and will straighten and disconnect their trail arm at impact unlike Mr. Furyck. 
 

What about shallowing with the wrists?

[dap]

3 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

There are two ways to shallow the shaft

1. Pronation of the lead forearm

2. trail shoulder external rotation 

3. a combination of both going down 

The more that you pronate your lead forearm  going back ( lead palm facing down) up to 1/4 turn,  the more that the trail  forearm will approach vertical(waiters tray position )  and the less the need for trail shoulder external rotation in transition .

Tigers position at the top is closer to this waiters tray position -still

Of course pronation in the backswing ( rolling of the wrists ) will lead to disaster if done too early . 

 

 

Mr Furcyk had a very non traditional swing to say the least . Although he did NOT get his right elbow on and in front of his right hip going down , 

he did maintain his bent right arm at impact . Few  amateur golfer will  be able to pull this off  and will straighten and disconnect their trail arm at impact unlike Mr. Furyck. 
 

There’s a third way to get a flat shaft and that’s bowing the lead wrist. I would also argue that it’s the superior way if your wrist can handle it because it doesn’t require as much forearm rotation. It’s becoming quite popular on tour. A number of elite ballstrikers are doing it. DJ, Morikawa, Rahm. Jordan Spieth is now doing it and he’s flattened his transition immensely.

 

Try it. Really bow the lead wrist at the top and keep it bowed in transition. You’ll be amazed how flat your transition will be, in fact you’ll probably be laid off.  I don’t mean a flat wrist either. I mean bowed like Morikawa or DJ.

[KMeloney]

10 hours ago, Trippels said:

What about shallowing with the wrists?

 

Unless you have a really slow back swing or pause at the top, I don't see how anyone can add shallowing with the wrists in transition with any kind of momentum.