Is it external rotation all the way down? Also, leading with the elbow question.

[golfarb1]

 

 

I have repeated this basic anatomical fact ad nauseum 

.There are 4 and only 4 movements of the wrist . 

Radial deviation

Ulnar deviation

Extension 

Palmar Flexion

 

NONE of these are capable of rotation  resulting in  the palm of the hand  facing either palm up or palm down . Rotating the palm of either hand is a REQUIREMENT to shallowing the shaft. .Circumduction combines some of these 4 movements to move the hand in a circular fashion , but it is not usually considered a separate movement and as such can NOT   rotate the wrist so that the palm  faces down or up. 
 

Palmar flexion ( bowing) and extension  are capable of changing the orientation of the face ( either closed or open ) but are NOT capable of rotation of the palms/shaft 

It is pronation  / supination of the forearms that is  capable of rotating the hands/ wrist bones so that the palm faces up or down

 

You may be deceived because some 

of these movements are coupled , meaning that  one encourages another . 
 

It is IMPOSSIBLE for golfers with a normal range of motion who have a strong lead hand grip to bow their lead wrist at the top . Dustin Johnson   does have a strong grip and does bow his lead wrist at the top, but his mobility is off of the charts even by PGA standards and is a poor example for the vast majority of golfers . The other examples that were mentioned all have weak lead hand grips. 
And Dustin combines his bowed lead wrist with a strong right elbow move ( right shoulder external rotation ) in transition . .Study the movement of his hands and trail elbow in early transition and you will notice that his trail elbow  moves both faster and covers more ground than his hands .

K Maloney brings up a very relevant point 

Sure you can slow things down to almost a halt and manipulate your wrists/ hands / forearms in every which way , but can you do so even at 1/2 speed half length swing , let alone a regular length / speed swing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by golfarb1

[dap]

12 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

 

 

I have repeated this basic anatomical fact ad nauseum 

.There are 4 and only 4 movements of the wrist . 

Radial deviation

Ulnar deviation

Extension 

Palmar Flexion

 

NONE of these are capable of rotation  resulting in  the palm of the hand  facing either palm up or palm down . Rotating the palm of either hand is a REQUIREMENT to shallowing the shaft. .Circumduction combines some of these 4 movements to move the hand in a circular fashion , but it is not usually considered a separate movement and as such can NOT   rotate the wrist so that the palm  faces down or up. 
 

Palmar flexion ( bowing) and extension  are capable of changing the orientation of the face ( either closed or open ) but are NOT capable of rotation of the palms/shaft 

It is pronation  / supination of the forearms that is  capable of rotating the hands/ wrist bones so that the palm faces up or down

 

You may be deceived because some 

of these movements are coupled , meaning that  one encourages another . 
 

It is IMPOSSIBLE for golfers with a normal range of motion who have a strong lead hand grip to bow their lead wrist at the top . Dustin Johnson   does have a strong grip and does bow his lead wrist at the top, but his mobility is off of the charts even by PGA standards and is a poor example for the vast majority of golfers . The other examples that were mentioned all have weak lead hand grips. 
And Dustin combines his bowed lead wrist with a strong right elbow move ( right shoulder external rotation ) in transition . .Study the movement of his hands and trail elbow in early transition and you will notice that his trail elbow  moves both faster and covers more ground than his hands .

K Maloney brings up a very relevant point 

Sure you can slow things down to almost a halt and manipulate your wrists/ hands / forearms in every which way , but can you do so even at 1/2 speed half length swing , let alone a regular length / speed swing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The point you’re missing is that you are assuming the only way to shallow the club is by rotation. Bowing the the lead wrist doesn’t add rotation but it does position the clubhead deeper behind you which is a shallowing move. The beauty of this method is it shallows without having to rotate the crap out of your forearms. Not everyone has the ability to swing a club with that much arm rotation.

[80sFredriksson]

On 5/21/2022 at 1:58 AM, glk said:

Yes but there are going to be degrees that folks do this - some more, some less.    The improper use of the shoulders is rarely discussed.   Tyler has plenty of video on his member site on this plus other things.   Unfortunately shoulder movement can’t be measured today so you won’t find any 3D data.    
 

having the trail shoulder going internal through release is typical of the flip roll.   Both forearms are supinating from around p5 ish with the trail forearm starting to pronate just before impact - going internal with the shoulder works against the supination with pronation taking over to close the face and usually late in the swing and quickly - leading to a dispersion issue.

 

can you find pro that don’t do this - likely though I can’t think of any off the top of my head. And if they do it is not as severe as amateurs and is accompanied with lots of other really good things like tillts, rotation, wrists etc.

How does both arms supinate? I can’t see it, if one forearm supinates or pronates doesnt the other do the opposite as long as the grip is still ok? Is there a video that explains/talks about this?

Edited May 27, 2022 by 80sFredriksson

[glk]

30 minutes ago, 80sFredriksson said:

How does both arms supinate? I can’t see it, if one forearm supinates or pronates doesnt the other do the opposite as long as the grip is still ok? Is there a video that explains/talks about this?

Not on Tyler YouTube but can take a free 7 day trial and watch this video others of his 900 video collection.   Believe you’ll see 45 seconds if not a member

 

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/how-can-both-arms-supinate-member-question/

 

an oldie from monte.   Doesn’t talk supination but demonstrates them both supinating, etc  no membership required  

 

In Tyler’s talk to the world golf thingee on arm movements of elite golfers he has drill etc to help.  One of them is a shoulder/ elbow disassociation test.  
poor golfers  tend to over use their shoulder and not have the forearms rotate through release without the help of the shoulders.  Simple test which serves as an exercise to develop this disassociation if one is poor at it.  

Edited May 27, 2022 by glk

[golfarb1]

11 hours ago, dap said:

The point you’re missing is that you are assuming the only way to shallow the club is by rotation. Bowing the the lead wrist doesn’t add rotation but it does position the clubhead deeper behind you which is a shallowing move. The beauty of this method is it shallows without having to rotate the crap out of your forearms. Not everyone has the ability to swing a club with that much arm rotation.

Shallowing is defined as getting the shaft more horizontal . While you are correct that flexion of the lead wrist gets the club deeper in the arc , it does not get the shaft more horizontal by itself . It must be accompanied by either lead forearm pronation or by right shoulder external rotation . 

[glk]

40 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Shallowing is defined as getting the shaft more horizontal . While you are correct that flexion of the lead wrist gets the club deeper in the arc , it does not get the shaft more horizontal by itself . It must be accompanied by either lead forearm pronation or by right shoulder external rotation . 

Shallow and steep is defined by the height and distance the club head is from the ball. At any given height moving the club head the further from the ball is shallowing and closer  is steepen.      Increasing arc width shallows as narrowing it steepens.  As does moving the shaft more horizontal than vertical.   So wrist movements can shallow or steepen.  The main shallow movements in transition are ext rotation of trail shoulder, lead arm adduction, and lead forearm pronation.   Wrists, elbows,and shoulder blades play a supporting role but taken on a more significant role as the downswing progresses.

 

tyler has a chart and several video explaining steep and shallow on his pay site.   Tyler does include top right thorax rotation as a major transition shallower too - me, I view it more of a supporting role like the shoulder blade going down and toward the spine - if you view the transition starts at p3 then can view these as part of transition.

Edited May 27, 2022 by glk

[dap]

23 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Shallowing is defined as getting the shaft more horizontal . While you are correct that flexion of the lead wrist gets the club deeper in the arc , it does not get the shaft more horizontal by itself . It must be accompanied by either lead forearm pronation or by right shoulder external rotation . 

That’s incorrect. The more you bow, the deeper the clubhead moves further behind the hands and the more shallow or horizontal the club will be. Of course there is only so much shallowing you can get by bowing the lead wrist but you can still get plenty enough. There is no need to go full horizontal. Not even Sergio Garcia does that.

 

The illustration below demonstrates how bowing moves the clubhead further behind the hands shallowing the club. That’s only a small amount of flexion too. A larger amount like DJ or Morikawa will create more shallowing.

 

 

[moehogan]

11 hours ago, 80sFredriksson said:

How does both arms supinate? I can’t see it, if one forearm supinates or pronates doesnt the other do the opposite as long as the grip is still ok? Is there a video that explains/talks about this?

Both arms are TRYING to supinate and both shoulders trying to externally rotate, facilitated by grip pressures in transition to the follow through. Trail arm wins to delivery (P6) then the lead arm brings both arms back to neutral at impact with the help of the pivot.

 

[golfarb1]

1 hour ago, moehogan said:

Both arms are TRYING to supinate and both shoulders trying to externally rotate, facilitated by grip pressures in transition to the follow through. Trail arm wins to delivery (P6) then the lead arm brings both arms back to neutral at impact with the help of the pivot.

 

Pronation means that the palm of the hand faces down while supination means that the palm faces  up.

It is physically IMPOSSIBLE  for both forearms   to be fully pronated or fully supinated at the same time as long the hands face each other on the grip. 
But it is very possible for each forearm to be slightly supinated on the downswing when the elbows move closer 

Complicating any conclusions on pronation / supination are internal / external rotation of the shoulders  and how accurately both are measured . 
Look at the sketch of Mr. Hogan from “ 5 lessons “.

Both shoulders look to externally rotated .

Are both forearms also slightly supinated?

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, dap said:

That’s incorrect. The more you bow, the deeper the clubhead moves further behind the hands and the more shallow or horizontal the club will be. Of course there is only so much shallowing you can get by bowing the lead wrist but you can still get plenty enough. There is no need to go full horizontal. Not even Sergio Garcia does that.

 

The illustration below demonstrates how bowing moves the clubhead further behind the hands shallowing the club. That’s only a small amount of flexion too. A larger amount like DJ or Morikawa will create more shallowing.

 

 

Notice differences between two  still s

Right still

A. Left Wrist is extended 

B.Distance between both elbows are greater

C. Angle of right forearm is less vertical 

 

Left still

A. Left wrist is slightly flexed 

B.Distance between elbows is less 

C.Angle of right forearm is more vertical 

 

Flexion of the lead wrist is incapable  of moving the trail elbow.;thus , flexion can neither move the trail elbow closer to the lead elbow nor move the trail elbow so that it becomes more vertical That is done by a combination of lead arm pronation and right shoulder external rotation , the two forces that are present in shallowing the shaft in transition .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by golfarb1

[dap]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Notice differences between two  still s

Right still

A. Left Wrist is extended 

B.Distance between both elbows are greater

C. Angle of right forearm is less vertical 

 

Left still

A. Left wrist is slightly flexed 

B.Distance between elbows is less 

C.Angle of right forearm is more vertical 

 

Flexion of the lead wrist is incapable  of moving the trail elbow.;thus , flexion can neither move the trail elbow closer to the lead elbow nor move the trail elbow so that it becomes more vertical That is done by a combination of lead arm pronation and right shoulder external rotation , the two forces that are present in shallowing the shaft in transition .

 

 

 

 

 

First of all you are nit picking very small differences particularly the right elbow which in any case has little bearing on how shallow the club gets. Lead arm rotation and/or wrist flexion has far more influence.

 

Gary Woodland has far greater right shoulder external rotation than Graeme McDowell but his transition is infinitely steeper. Proof that right shoulder external rotation doesn’t absolutely force the club to shallow. Bowing the lead wrist does as McDowell demonstrates. I haven’t seen one player that bows the lead wrist that gets steep in transition.

 

[moehogan]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Pronation means that the palm of the hand faces down while supination means that the palm faces  up.

It is physically IMPOSSIBLE  for both forearms   to be fully pronated or fully supinated at the same time as long the hands face each other on the grip. 
But it is very possible for each forearm to be slightly supinated on the downswing when the elbows move closer 

Complicating any conclusions on pronation / supination are internal / external rotation of the shoulders  and how accurately both are measured . 
Look at the sketch of Mr. Hogan from “ 5 lessons “.

Both shoulders look to externally rotated .

Are both forearms also slightly supinated?

 

I said that both forearms can TRY to supinate resulting in a neutral condition at impact. It’s all about the pressures.

[golfarb1]

4 hours ago, dap said:

First of all you are nit picking very small differences particularly the right elbow which in any case has little bearing on how shallow the club gets. Lead arm rotation and/or wrist flexion has far more influence.

 

Gary Woodland has far greater right shoulder external rotation than Graeme McDowell but his transition is infinitely steeper. Proof that right shoulder external rotation doesn’t absolutely force the club to shallow. Bowing the lead wrist does as McDowell demonstrates. I haven’t seen one player that bows the lead wrist that gets steep in transition.

 

Au Contraire .
The movement of the trail elbow is at the very heart of shallowing in transition and is the MARKER for external shoulder rotation . 

As I mentioned previously . The definition of external shoulder rotation involves rotation of the head of the humerus ( upper arm) within the the shoulder joint . Because the other end(distal ) of the humerus bone forms the elbow joint any  external  shoulder rotation MUST also involve similar movements  of the trail elbow .

In transition this elbow movement will show up as the trail elbow moving both faster and covering more distance than the hands resulting in a change in the angle of the trail forearm .

External trail shoulder rotation is one of two ways to shallow the shaft along with lead arm  ( rotation) . Some golfers depend on more lead arm pronation going back , others will depend almost entirely on trail shoulder external rotation  , while most will use a combination of the two

A minority of top golfers externally rotate late ( like Gary Woodland) and some have the right shoulder internally rotated at the top( McDowell) , but in no cases does flexion lead to shallowing because it anatomically can NOT .  It might be present in transition , but it is not a CAUSE of shallowing 

.

I included the below video by Monte  showing how the trail elbow moves in the early downswing.

Edited May 28, 2022 by golfarb1

[dap]

13 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Au Contraire .
The movement of the trail elbow is at the very heart of shallowing in transition and is the MARKER for external shoulder rotation . 

As I mentioned previously . The definition of external shoulder rotation involves rotation of the head of the humerus ( upper arm) within the the shoulder joint . Because the other end(distal ) of the humerus bone forms the elbow joint any  external  shoulder rotation MUST also involve similar movements  of the trail elbow .

In transition this elbow movement will show up as the trail elbow moving both faster and covering more distance than the hands resulting in a change in the angle of the trail forearm .

External trail shoulder rotation is one of two ways to shallow the shaft along with lead arm  ( rotation) . Some golfers depend on more lead arm pronation going back , others will depend almost entirely on trail shoulder external rotation  , while most will use a combination of the two

A minority of top golfers externally rotate late ( like Gary Woodland) and some have the right shoulder internally rotated at the top( McDowell) , but in no cases does flexion lead to shallowing because it anatomically can NOT .  It might be present in transition , but it is not a CAUSE of shallowing 

.

I included the below video by Monte  showing how the trail elbow moves in the early downswing.

I already shown you proof that you can shallow the club in transition without external shoulder rotation as shown by Graeme McDowell. You can also add external rotation and not shallow the club as shown by Gary Woodland. I specifically used these two players to highlight my point. External shoulder rotation alone does not shallow the shaft in transition.

 

Bowing the lead wrist absolutely shallows the shaft in transition. I have always meant during the transition period as that is where most good players shallow. It’s usually the less elite players that transition steep and shallow late. Of course there will be exceptions like Gary Woodland.
 

Some players like Will Zalatoris will shallow in transition using mostly arm rotation and that’s fine if it works for him. Another player like Dustin Johnson will shallow in transition using mostly lead wrist bowing.
 

There are some elite players like Cameron Champ that gets very shallow in transition and then actually steepen late. Most elite players exhibit this kind of plane shift but perhaps not quite as pronounced as Champ. Whenever shallowing is mentioned I always assume that’s where it occurs, not late in the downswing.

 

 

[dap]

Gary Woodland is an example of a player that transitions steep and shallows late. The opposite plane shift of Cameron Champ. You can still play great golf with this type of shallowing so it’s not really a fault but the best ball strikers usually shallow early.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by dap

[Nard_S]

You can pronate lead wrist by supinating entire arm. So in my view, it's skinning the same cat if you flex lead wrist or externally rotate arm. There's no ideal or magic percentage or rotational speed that fits all swings, so everyone is a bit different. That discussion has  been thrown about this forum for years. It's more a question of matching parts that work together, isn't it?

 

The intent of getting elbows closer together with both arms  by rotating them externally (as described by the above Monte video)  is pretty much how my best swinging gets done. I seem to do better when I focus on how my upper arms behave and how I manage that triangular window between them. Feel too much focus on hands and their directional moves just kills or derails the entire objective.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nard_S

[dap]

Will Zalatoris shallows the shaft using lead forearm pronation and you see can at this particular position halfway into his downswing the back of his left wrist and hand is facing almost straight up towards the sky. He has pronated his left forearm quite substantially. Collin Morikawa in the same half way position into his downswing shows the back of his left wrist almost facing perpendicular away from him. It’s clear as day Morikawa has nowhere near the amount of left arm pronation yet his club is actually a few degrees shallower than Zalatoris. It’s all due to the extreme bowing he has in his left wrist.

 

 

 

 

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, Nard_S said:

You can pronate lead wrist by supinating entire arm. So in my view, it's skinning the same cat if you flex lead wrist or externally rotate arm. There's no ideal or magic percentage or rotational speed that fits all swings, so everyone is a bit different. That discussion has  been thrown about this forum for years. It's more a question of matching parts that work together, isn't it?

 

The intent of getting elbows closer together with both arms  by rotating them externally (as described by the above Monte video)  is pretty much how my best swinging gets done. I seem to do better when I focus on how my upper arms behave and how I manage that triangular window between them. Feel too much focus on hands and their directional moves just kills or derails the entire objective.

Pronation is a movement of the forearm , not the wrist . Technically the upper arm does not pronate , but often pronation  of the forearm happens when the shoulder rotates externally . The Hackmotion  sensor measures rotation of the entire arm , not just the forearm , so you are hardly alone in your comment about the entire arm.

There are no absolutes  in golf instruction other than to be in balance , so if something works for for you , great.  
Even though others have disagreed , I have stated that the downswing is at its simplest a reflex reaction to the forces going back and at the top and all of the focus about flexion or right shoulder external rotation etc is unnecessary 

Edited May 28, 2022 by golfarb1

[golfarb1]

22 minutes ago, dap said:

Will Zalatoris shallows the shaft using lead forearm pronation and you see can at this particular position halfway into his downswing the back of his left wrist and hand is facing almost straight up towards the sky. He has pronated his left forearm quite substantially. Collin Morikawa in the same half way position into his downswing shows the back of his left wrist almost facing perpendicular away from him. It’s clear as day Morikawa has nowhere near the amount of left arm pronation yet his club is actually a few degrees shallower than Zalatoris. It’s all due to the extreme bowing he has in his left wrist.

 

 

 

 

Those who have strong left hands grips rarely can bow their lead wrist .The exception is DJ, due to his unusual mobility . They can and do move more towards flexion , but not all the way to bowing. Those like Morikawa , who have weak left hand grips can and do move their wrists all the towards bowing 

Again this flexion or bowing may very well be present at the top or during the downswing , but this flexing or bowing can  not cause rotation of the shaft .

To demonstrate the range of motion of flexion, hold your relaxed bent left arm in front of your and hold your left wrist bone firmly with your right hand. Now bend your wrist back towards the inside of your forearm . That is the range of motion of flexion . 
Now move your lead  hand so that it approximates a strong lead  hand grip and flex your wrist . Notice that when the lead  hand grip is strong that you have a limited range of motion of flexion  . Now do the same but with a weak lead  hand grip. Your range of motion of flexion is greater 

 

Next radial deviate ( c0ck your lead wrist and then flex your lead  wrist . Your range of motion will be limited . 
Now ulnar deviate your lead wrist and flex your wrist . Your range of motion of the flexion will be greater

Radial deviation ulnar deviation are what is known as coupled motions with flexion and extension . 
 

The bottom line 

1. Strong lead hand grips rarely resulting in bowing of the lead wrist at the top

and at impact 

2. ulnar deviation encourages flexing the lead wrist while radial  deviation

discourages it

 

“You can not  create a silk purse out of a sows  ear “

or

you cannot  attribute movement to the wrist that it is anatomically INCAPABLE of, no matter how many videos that you post

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by golfarb1

[dap]

Rotation of the club opens the club face too as well as getting it horizontal but very few players can swing with that amount of openness. That’s one big factor most people who try to copy Hogans swing don’t get. 
 

What if there’s are way to shallow out your swing while keeping the club face square to the path?Morikawa might have inadvertently figured out the way.

Edited May 28, 2022 by dap

[Nard_S]

9 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Pronation is a movement of the forearm , not the wrist . Technically the upper arm does not pronate , but often pronation  of the forearm happens when the shoulder rotates externally . The Hackmotion  sensor measures rotation of the entire arm , not just the forearm , so you are hardly alone in your comment about the entire arm.

There are no absolutes  in golf instruction other than to be in balance , so if something works for for you , great.  Even though others have disagreed , I have stated that the downswing is at its simplest a reflex reaction to the forces going back and at the top and all of the focus about flexion or right shoulder external rotation etc is unnecessary 

Exactly, agree with entire post. I've experimented quite a bit with this  and for me bolded has come up as best working intent to lay down the club early. 

[golfarb1]

10 minutes ago, dap said:

Rotation of the club opens the club face too as well as getting it horizontal but very few players can swing with that amount of openness. That’s one big factor most people who try to copy Hogans swing don’t get. 
 

What if there’s are way to shallow out your swing while keeping the club face square to the path?Morikawa might have inadvertently figured out the way.

Among other things Mr Hogan had a great deal of ribcage rotation and supination of his lead forearm going into impact .Both will close the clubface . 

Yes, you are correct that rotation of the shaft or shallowing the shaft will open the clubface . That is a large potential problem for many golfers and unconsciously discourages them from shallowing correctly with the arms and encourages them to incorrectly shallow via body movements .On the other hand flexion of the lead wrist will close the clubface at the top and into transition 

So golfers need to combine some method of shallowing with some method of closing the clubface.  A stronger lead hand grip is another way to close the clubface . 
Obviously Morikawa has found something , which works for him. If you have found something that works for you , more power to you!

[golfarb1]

When I first heard of the motorcycle move ( lead wrist flexion ) after reading Tyler’s book , I came away very confused . I knew that I needed to shallow the shaft sometime in transition and I also knew that an open clubface would lead to problems later on.. But both closing the clubface and shallowing the shaft needed to be done in transition . How was I going to coordinate these moves ?
I came away with another way of accomplishing this 

1. Lead hand grip which can be described as  slightly stronger than strong

2. A takeaway which resulted in the clubface being slighty closed or parallel to my inclined spine  at first parallel . Basically that meant ZERO rotation of the forearms during the first 18 inches of the takeaway 

3. After  the takeaway a slow but steady pronation of the left forearm ( palm down) , so that the watch in my left wrist would be pointing more up.Along with this pronation a conscious effort to extend my RIGHT wrist . Extension of the right wrist was the simplest part because of my stronger grip
 

Basically I transferred shallowing and left wrist flexion to the backswing , where I could more easily control those movements . 

[PracticeSwinger]

51 minutes ago, dap said:

What if there’s are way to shallow out your swing while keeping the club face square to the path?Morikawa might have inadvertently figured out the way.

AMG debunked that part - different lead wrist positioning to the top, how the face has opened relative to their path… and also by P6ish and how similarly closed they are to their respective path… interesting video all the way through - but talking about these points early and around the 8:30 / 8:50 mark

 

 

[baudi]

3 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

The Hackmotion  sensor measures rotation of the entire arm , not just the forearm

No.

Hackmotion measures Extension, Flexion, Ulnar, Radial deviation of the wrist. 

The sensor cannot distinguish what the drivers are for this motion.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by baudi

[golfarb1]

18 minutes ago, baudi said:

No.

Hackmotion measures Extension, Flexion, Ulnar, Radial deviation of the wrist. 

The sensor cannot distinguish what the drivers are for this motion.

 

 

 

 

Yes, the regular version measures  only those wrist measurements 

The full fledged , more expensive version also measures rotation , but can not distinguish between just forearm rotation and upper arm rotation , so it measures full arm rotation 

[baudi]

9 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Yes, the regular version measures  only those wrist measurements 

The full fledged , more expensive version also measures rotation , but can not distinguish between just forearm rotation and upper arm rotation , so it measures full arm rotation 

 

Off Topic

Agreed. It's a total measurement of arm rotation but measured at the wrist. 

 HM Pro is a great tool (in use since 2019)  but I wish they developed 1 extra sensor for the top arm. 

Then it is easy to show the coupled motion and the net effects in the lead arm. 

 

[Zitlow]

On 5/20/2022 at 6:05 PM, Trippels said:

What I'm not sure about is wether there is any internal rotation of the trail arm going into impact, say from when you've gotten to the delivery position with a significant amount of external rotation, does anyone then release this and move towards internal?

Yes and the upper left arm externally rotates, it's an effect not a cause. The arms and wrists have to be in a state of relaxation for it to happen. They are conduits for the energy to flow through without impedance. Tense muscles are slow muscles which block or impede the flow of energy. 

 

 

[dap]

On 5/29/2022 at 3:15 AM, golfarb1 said:

Among other things Mr Hogan had a great deal of ribcage rotation and supination of his lead forearm going into impact .Both will close the clubface . 

Yes, you are correct that rotation of the shaft or shallowing the shaft will open the clubface . That is a large potential problem for many golfers and unconsciously discourages them from shallowing correctly with the arms and encourages them to incorrectly shallow via body movements .On the other hand flexion of the lead wrist will close the clubface at the top and into transition 

So golfers need to combine some method of shallowing with some method of closing the clubface.  A stronger lead hand grip is another way to close the clubface . 
Obviously Morikawa has found something , which works for him. If you have found something that works for you , more power to you!

Actually flexion doesn’t close the face. It delofts the face. It’s just that the bowing motion as you reach the top appears to naturally supinate the forearm and that closes the face so a weaker grip is advised.
 

The move done by Morikawa is an extreme example of Brian Manzella’s “twist away” move. You twist your watch face away from you as you make your backswing. He came up with it to help slicers. He teaches them to do the opposite of Hogan and rotate the lead arm in the opposite direction as you transition. If you twist far enough at the top of the backswing the wrist will want to bow. 

 

If I want to be more accurate, bowing is not a flattening move but an anti steepening move. You can’t get steep if your leading wrist is bowed during the transition period and the method works better when you don’t pronate the leading forearm. I have been down the Hogan path and I personally cannot rotate my arms clockwise in transition. It is so counterintuitive and opens the club face so much I have no idea how to square it back up in that split second to impact. If you can do it, great, but it’s not the only option to prevent a steep transition. I am personally a great fan of the DJ, Morikawa way to do it particularly Morikawa. He’s going to win a lot more majors if he can putt consistently better. He’s probably the best iron player in the world today and he’s achieving all this without being super long.

 

There is a trend currently with bowing and you can see Jordan Spieth doing it now. I think there is some merit to it in my opinion. I have gotten a bit off topic but regarding trail shoulder external rotation I have shown that it doesn’t affect the plane of the club directly.

 

 

 

[golfarb1]

16 hours ago, dap said:

Actually flexion doesn’t close the face. It delofts the face. It’s just that the bowing motion as you reach the top appears to naturally supinate the forearm and that closes the face so a weaker grip is advised.
 

The move done by Morikawa is an extreme example of Brian Manzella’s “twist away” move. You twist your watch face away from you as you make your backswing. He came up with it to help slicers. He teaches them to do the opposite of Hogan and rotate the lead arm in the opposite direction as you transition. If you twist far enough at the top of the backswing the wrist will want to bow. 

 

If I want to be more accurate, bowing is not a flattening move but an anti steepening move. You can’t get steep if your leading wrist is bowed during the transition period and the method works better when you don’t pronate the leading forearm. I have been down the Hogan path and I personally cannot rotate my arms clockwise in transition. It is so counterintuitive and opens the club face so much I have no idea how to square it back up in that split second to impact. If you can do it, great, but it’s not the only option to prevent a steep transition. I am personally a great fan of the DJ, Morikawa way to do it particularly Morikawa. He’s going to win a lot more majors if he can putt consistently better. He’s probably the best iron player in the world today and he’s achieving all this without being super long.

 

There is a trend currently with bowing and you can see Jordan Spieth doing it now. I think there is some merit to it in my opinion. I have gotten a bit off topic but regarding trail shoulder external rotation I have shown that it doesn’t affect the plane of the club directly.

 

 

 

Extension / flexion changes the orientation of the clubface .Whether the clubface becomes more closed or more open depends on whether the wrist is ulnar deviated or radial deviated 

At impact when your wrists are ulnar deviated , , flexion of the lead wrist advances the hands relative to the clubhead . This will orient the clubface more to the right or open  .
Extension of the lead wrist will cause the hands to be more behind the clubhead and will orient the clubhead more to the left  or closed . The need to close the clubface  at impact is one important factor in extension of the lead wrist or flipping .
Also notice  the ease at which you can flex your lead wrist  at impact .  This is an example of coupled motion between ulnar deviation and flexion 

Because the hands are ahead of the clubhead when the lead wrist is in flexion at impact  , the club is also delofted , which also affects the Trackman measurement of “ spin loft”  and converts an 8 iron into a 6or 7 iron 

 

Now when the club is in radial deviation , flexion of the lead wrist will be the SAME anatomical move , but will be more limited and more difficult to do than at impact because radial deviation and flexion are NOT coupled motions .
More importantly the same movement of lead wrist to flexion will result in the clubface oriented more closed when the wrists are radially deviated 

You can easily demonstrate this to yourself . Just take the club back to 9:00 with your wrist fully cocked or radially deviated . Now flex your lead wrist as much as you can and note where the clubface is pointing . Then  extend your lead wrist and note where the the clubface is pointing . These are the opposite of those when the wrists are ulnar deviated . 
Many are confused by the idea that the same movement can result in different clubface orientations between various phases of the swing. But if you think of it ,the difference in range of motion between ulnar deviation and radial deviation is  considerable so the clubface should have a different orientation at these two points with a similar movement of extension/ flexion .
 

Edited May 30, 2022 by golfarb1