Unpopular opinion: Pro caddies are extremely overrated

[bladehunter]

Strickers wife has looped enough that she is a professional caddie now.  Same fro Cinks son.  They’re getting paid and doing a great job.  

[Soloman1]

18 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

As far as the pay comment, most contracts are now between $750-2,000 a week plus a 10% cut of the purse.

 

I thought most are 10% for a win, 7% for a top ten and 5% for all else.

[bladehunter]

30 minutes ago, Big Cat 3 said:

BS 

It’s pretty verifiable that he gave him the sand wedge yardage , and it wasn’t the sand wedge distance , and tiger hit it the extra .  So ….? 

 

26 minutes ago, Big Cat 3 said:

Westwood almost won something last year with a hooker on his bag .. so there is that 

That’s the second time I’ve seen that posted. Care to explain ?  You talking about his wife ? 

[Creedo77]

36 minutes ago, Big Cat 3 said:

BS 

It isn’t, Stevie did all the numbers for Tiger during their time together 

[OnTheBag]

10 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I thought most are 10% for a win, 7% for a top ten and 5% for all else.

There are some that follow the 10-7 rule, but other than guys in their first few years, 10 is the unwritten rule.  10% of last place on current purses is $1200-1500.  Back in the 80s and 90s it was $150-300 if you finished last above the cut.

 

I don't think I would ever have agreed to 5% myself, but there may be some out there that have.

[Creedo77]

17 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I thought most are 10% for a win, 7% for a top ten and 5% for all else.

PGA tour guys make a minimum of 1500 a week and 10% win 8% anything else 

 

KFT guys make 800-1300+ And the same percentages 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Creedo77

[isaacbm]

23 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Stricker's wife knows the game, played at the collegiate level, has plenty of caddie experience. So it seems she's as well qualified on the bag as anyone. 

 

Kuchar won with a veteran caddie that knows the course. 

 

If you're trying to make a point then you're doing it poorly.

 

 

I thought I had heard that Kutcher‘s caddy quite literally didn’t speak one word of English. How can he communicate his course knowledge? Maybe I have that wrong though… 

[Creedo77]

3 minutes ago, isaacbm said:

I thought I had heard that Kutcher‘s caddy quite literally didn’t speak one word of English. How can he communicate his course knowledge? Maybe I have that wrong though… 

The guy in Mexico carried the bag all week. He didn’t do anything that a normal tour caddie would do 

[Creedo77]

As a current tour caddie like @OnTheBagi take offense to the OPs post. Most people don’t have the slightest clue what goes on week in week out for us. It’s a hard but fun way to make a living. The amount of effort both physically and mentally on a 9 or 10 week run is taxing but being appreciated by who were standing next to on a weekly basis goes a long way 

[OnTheBag]

17 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

PGA tour guys make a minimum of 1500 a week and 10% win 8% anything else 

 

KFT guys make 800-1300+ And the same percentages 

That's great that the KFT pay has increased.  When it was the Ben Hogan/Nationwide/Nike/et al... the caddie pay was pathetic.  Ryan Goble was talking about making less than $500 a week when he agreed to pickup Will Z's bag.

[oikos1]

I have no idea how this thread is still alive.

[Creedo77]

2 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

That's great that the KFT pay has increased.  When it was the Ben Hogan/Nationwide/Nike/et al... the caddie pay was pathetic.  Ryan Goble was talking about making less than $500 a week when he agreed to pickup Will Z's bag.

Where did he say that? I know Ryan and it was July of 19 when he started with Willy so even at that point I’d find it hard to believe that figure. 
 

some of the young kids out here at paying 1500-1800

[huskydawg]

1 hour ago, m d g said:

You sound like an accomplished player, but everyone on the PGA tour is better than you and every one of them has a caddy. Maybe they know something you don't?

I thought I read somewhere they are required to have one.  Can anyone confirm?

[huskydawg]

triple post

Edited May 26, 2022 by huskydawg

[huskydawg]

triple post

Edited May 26, 2022 by huskydawg

[lowheel]

Overrated? no, they play an important role beyond yardages. Anyone whos played on any tour knows a good caddie saves you 2-3 shots per 3-4 day event. When you dont have your best stuff having someone youre comfortable with crack a joke in between shots or challenge you to hit a shot he knows you have in the bag it adds up. So yes Cink won with his son on the bag and stricker won with his wife on the bag but what youre not seeing is how those 2 managed to keep their guys fresh and relaxed in the most high pressure situations. Call it an intangible if you want but it exists and youll take every edge you can get over several days. Ive seen guys on mini tours hire local pros and theyre never comfortable and the second a buddy caddies for them theyre lights out because theyre talking about the game last night and what batman movie is best etc... I can comfortably say thomas might not win the pga this past weekend if not for bones giving him pep talk. Some guys get down on themselves really quick and dont realize you dont have to be perfect to win. What made Tiger and phil the best players of their generations is their ability to win with less than stellar stuff. they manufactured chicken salad out of chicken s@@t ALL.THE.TIME.... you have to believe and have someone who believes even more than you

[4thand11]

59 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

As a current tour caddie like @OnTheBagi take offense to the OPs post. Most people don’t have the slightest clue what goes on week in week out for us. It’s a hard but fun way to make a living. The amount of effort both physically and mentally on a 9 or 10 week run is taxing but being appreciated by who were standing next to on a weekly basis goes a long way 

 

Never said it was easy.  In terms of workload it's a lot.  I just said I think they are overrated in terms of how much of the player's success can be attributed to them.  As I mentioned college golfers play without any caddies at all, and still manage to win tournaments and shoot low scores. 

 

What percentage of Rahm or Spieth or Scheffler, or any other Top-10 golfer's success, do you think is due to their caddy?  I'd argue very little as they could probably pull someone randomly out of the crowd each week to carry their bag and still be top 10 in the world.

[jgonz69]

1 hour ago, mosesgolf said:

I call your BS and raise you FACTS 😂 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/steve-williams-says-he-lied-to-tiger-woods-on-72nd-hole-of-2008-us-open/

Is this what they call pwned?😂😂

[JungleJimbo]

2 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

I don't know who you are buddy, but Helen is far from a hooker.  She's been a caddie for a while and is now married to Lee.

@OnTheBag "+1".  Westwood said she   makes him laugh & keeps him in a good frame of mind.

 

Extract/Quote (Source😞

Quote

"Joking aside, Westwood has enjoyed taking ownership of his game, where he need not rely on a caddie for shot detail. “Obviously I get on well with Helen,” added the former world No 1. “She doesn’t know too much about golf but she knows a lot about the way my mind works. So she keeps me in a good frame of mind and focusing on the right things at the right time. There’s more to the caddying than carrying and getting the wind direction. Get the yardage, pull the club, it’s all my responsibility, and I’m 100% clear in my mind what I’m doing.”

 

Am glad to hear that Billy Foster (Westwood's ex-caddie) is still doing well, on Matt Fitzpatrick's bag? https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/the-game/matt-fitzpatricks-caddie-203555 (May 22, 2022)

 

Extract/Quote:

Quote

 

"Who Is Matt Fitzpatrick's Caddie?"

 

Since 2012, Matt Fitzpatrick has been enjoying a lot of success, with the Englishman claiming a number of notable amateur and professional wins worldwide, including two DP World Tour Championships and two Omega European Masters.

 

One reason for his recent success is his caddie, Billy Foster, who took up the Englishman's bag in 2018 after he split with Lee Westwood(opens in new tab). Previously, Foster and Westwood had worked together for 10 years, but both parties recognised they had gone as far as they could go.

 

Since taking on the bag for Fitzpatrick, the duo have claimed some big results, with Foster on the bag for two of the Englishman's wins - 2020 DP World Tour Championship and 2021 Andalucía Masters.

As well as the wins, Fitzpatrick has put in some fantastic results on the lucrative PGA Tour, with multiple top 10 finishes catapulting the Englishman to just outside the world's top 10.

 

There's no denying that Foster's influence has been a big factor in Fitzpatrick's success. This was shown at the 2022 PGA Championship when, in tough conditions, the Englishman grinded out a two-under-par round of 68. Following the round, Fitzpatrick stated that patience was the key, something that Foster has helped him with.

 

"I think that's the one thing that I've learnt more and more certainly over the last few years, particularly with Billy on the bag as well, is just to stay patient and the birdies will come, basically," explained Fitzpatrick.

 

At the beginning of his career, Foster began caddying for South African, Hugh Baiocchi, before getting his first Ryder Cup experience with Gordon Brand Junior.

 

Now, he is one of the most recognised caddies in the world, having been on the bag for the likes of Westwood, Seve Ballasteros, Sergio Garcia, Thomas Bjorn, Darren Clarke and even Tiger Woods.

It's clear to see that Fitzpatrick and Foster have a close working relationship, with the English pair involved in a number of funny on-course moments. At the 2019 Scandinavian Invitational, Fitzpatrick asked his caddie for an opinion on a shot that was in a bush. In typical straight talking style, Foster initially joked that they should "flip a coin" to decide the outcome, before stating: "Everyone watching at home will say you're cheating. Get on with it!"

 

 

 

Billy Foster's Quote from 2018 (Source ) 

Quote

 

"That was after the blunt Yorkshireman handed out a verbal blast, telling Westwood to put his “effing name on the leaderboard, and scare his rivals to death”.

Foster was also at Westwood’s side as he climbed to world No 1. But their relationship had turned sour recently.

Foster explained: “Lee wanted to work differently to everything we had ever done, which basically meant me just carrying the bag.

“I struggled to adapt to that situation as an experienced caddie, and it created a bit of an uncomfortable atmosphere on the course.

“Ultimately, it was no good for Lee, and not fair on me either. So, unfortunately, the partnership had run its course, and we both recognised that.

“Times change. It has been a great ten years of my life with Lee, and we had many special times and successes together.

“There is no animosity between us whatsoever, and I can only wish him good luck going forward – although I do feel he could have waited more than a week before winning a million dollars!”

Foster also caddied for Seve Ballesteros for five years, as well as the likes of Darren Clarke, Sergio Garcia and Thomas Bjorn. He even worked for Tiger Woods at a Presidents’ Cup when regular bagman Steve Williams was unavailable.

He will not be short of offers, and after a couple of successful guest appearances on Sky he could be in line for a similar TV role to the one that Phil Mickelson’s former caddie - Jim ‘Bones’ Mackay – has taken on in the USA."

 

 

[mosesgolf]

54 minutes ago, lowheel said:

Overrated? no, they play an important role beyond yardages. Anyone whos played on any tour knows a good caddie saves you 2-3 shots per 3-4 day event. When you dont have your best stuff having someone youre comfortable with crack a joke in between shots or challenge you to hit a shot he knows you have in the bag it adds up. So yes Cink won with his son on the bag and stricker won with his wife on the bag but what youre not seeing is how those 2 managed to keep their guys fresh and relaxed in the most high pressure situations. Call it an intangible if you want but it exists and youll take every edge you can get over several days. Ive seen guys on mini tours hire local pros and theyre never comfortable and the second a buddy caddies for them theyre lights out because theyre talking about the game last night and what batman movie is best etc... I can comfortably say thomas might not win the pga this past weekend if not for bones giving him pep talk. Some guys get down on themselves really quick and dont realize you dont have to be perfect to win. What made Tiger and phil the best players of their generations is their ability to win with less than stellar stuff. they manufactured chicken salad out of chicken s@@t ALL.THE.TIME.... you have to believe and have someone who believes even more than you

I would say Tom Watson and Bruce Edwards had such a relationship.  IMO one of the all time great duos. 

[mosesgolf]

42 minutes ago, jgonz69 said:

Is this what they call pwned?😂😂

Thats called having the NUTZ.  😆 

[m d g]

1 hour ago, 4thand11 said:

As I mentioned college golfers play without any caddies at all, and still manage to win tournaments and shoot low scores.

Because somebody has to win and somebody has to shoot the low score.

 

We get it. Did a caddy steal your wife?

[Blaiser]

3 hours ago, Creedo77 said:

As a current tour caddie like @OnTheBagi take offense to the OPs post. Most people don’t have the slightest clue what goes on week in week out for us. It’s a hard but fun way to make a living. The amount of effort both physically and mentally on a 9 or 10 week run is taxing but being appreciated by who were standing next to on a weekly basis goes a long way 

 

The negative talk is almost certainly from the same guys who look down on labor/low income workers, while simultaneously would have zero chance of performing the job themselves for a month straight. 

 

In short, they don't get it.

[Righty to Lefty]

My buddy is an LPGA caddy and he said that for most any given round he is simply carrying the bag and giving yardages and confirmation to his player.  He said the most important thing he does is monitor and notice his player's mood at any given time.  If she is nervous, fatigued, or amped up he can monitor that and take over her process for her because she will be missing details because of her mood change.  Especially when she is fatigued he will do all of the mental preparation for her and literally tell her what to do and since she has hit so many shots during her life it is like inputting information into a computer and pressing enter, she will most likely execute the command. I believe Mito Pereira's caddy likely could have saved him in the final round of the PGA by taking over and doing all the preparation and telling him exactly where to hit the ball and distracting him from the fact that he was losing control on the tournament. I truly believe that the caddy is mostly not needed, but the times when they are needed can make or break a player's career.  

[golfortennis]

11 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

There’s no universal formula or conclusion.

 

As of everything in life… it depends.

 

In this case, it depends on what the player wants in a caddie.

 

 

 

Or one could say a caddie is invaluable if the player is the type who may need Depends during certain rounds....

[Ferguson]

3 hours ago, Blaiser said:

 

The negative talk is almost certainly from the same guys who look down on labor/low income workers, while simultaneously would have zero chance of performing the job themselves for a month straight. 

 

In short, they don't get it.

 

That's not the case at all.  I think this thread is about "questioning" the value the caddie brings to the player, not the value of the caddie's job compared to other workers.  

 

Bottom line - does a guy like Bones or Greller add any value to a player's ability to make shots or is the caddie role simply a necessity and therefore overrated?  

 

 

 

 

BTW:  There are plenty of hard-working guys around here such as the guy that works in the foundry or the cell tower climber or the abalone diver.   Stop being so sensitive. 

 

 

[golfortennis]

4 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

That's not the case at all.  I think this thread is about "questioning" the value the caddie brings to the player, not the value of the caddie's job compared to other workers.  

 

Bottom line - does a guy like Bones or Greller add any value to a player's ability to make shots or is the caddie role simply a necessity and therefore overrated?  

 

 

 

 

BTW:  There are plenty of hard-working guys around here such as the guy that works in the foundry or the cell tower climber or the abalone diver.   Stop being so sensitive. 

 

 

 

But then it likely also comes from the same place that "athletes make too much money" comes from.  

 

Is the cell tower climber the one complaining?

 

I don't know that caddies are overrated, but I do think it's strange that we know the names of a number of them.  

[SurfDuffer]

Guessing the OP has never played with a pro level caddie helping out.

[Hawkeye77]

6 hours ago, 4thand11 said:

 

Never said it was easy.  In terms of workload it's a lot.  I just said I think they are overrated in terms of how much of the player's success can be attributed to them.  As I mentioned college golfers play without any caddies at all, and still manage to win tournaments and shoot low scores. 

 

Repeating the college golf scenario has nothing to do with your claim. None of them have caddies so you couldn’t compare unless all of them did, and of course the lowest score wins, caddie or no caddie.

 

It’s for you to substantiate - which caddies are overrated and why?

 

We’ve got opinions (that vary) from guys that have actually been there - what’s your experience with a variety of tour players and their relationships with their caddies? 
 

Ask Fuzzy why he won the first Masters he entered - hmmm, caddie. Ask Jack about caddies and he would likely say carrying the bag was the limit, but I think even Angelo was expected to have yardages but don’t have time to look it up. 
 

All depends on the player/caddie at issue, IMO. 

[Ferguson]

18 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

But then it likely also comes from the same place that "athletes make too much money" comes from.  

 

Is the cell tower climber the one complaining?

 

I don't know that caddies are overrated, but I do think it's strange that we know the names of a number of them.  

 

You know their names because the second rate commentators that call golf on TV have nothing better to talk about. 

The commentators are overrated. 

 

JT demonstrated grit as he came from behind to win the PGA.  However, in order to win, others had to stumble.  Why do some people give Bones so much credit for wins but fail to mention the caddies of those who didn't make the cut?   

 

Case in point, several weeks ago there was an entire thread dedicated to Scheffler's caddie "being the catalyst" for the recent success. However, I saw no thread this week attempting to explain why or how the "catalytic effect" suddenly disappeared.  

 

 

The caddie is a necessity.  JT would have won with Steve Stricker's wife on the bag.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ferguson