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Unpopular opinion: Pro caddies are extremely overrated


4thand11
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2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

My buddy is an LPGA caddy and he said that for most any given round he is simply carrying the bag and giving yardages and confirmation to his player.  He said the most important thing he does is monitor and notice his player's mood at any given time.  If she is nervous, fatigued, or amped up he can monitor that and take over her process for her because she will be missing details because of her mood change.  Especially when she is fatigued he will do all of the mental preparation for her and literally tell her what to do and since she has hit so many shots during her life it is like inputting information into a computer and pressing enter, she will most likely execute the command. I believe Mito Pereira's caddy likely could have saved him in the final round of the PGA by taking over and doing all the preparation and telling him exactly where to hit the ball and distracting him from the fact that he was losing control on the tournament. I truly believe that the caddy is mostly not needed, but the times when they are needed can make or break a player's career.  

LOL, backhanding compliments by suggesting a caddie cost a player the PGA championship. Guy rushed his swing, nothing to do with the caddie - nothing. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Blaiser said:

 

The negative talk is almost certainly from the same guys who look down on labor/low income workers, while simultaneously would have zero chance of performing the job themselves for a month straight. 

 

In short, they don't get it.

Amen.  Nail  on the head.  
 

I could write a short novel on that scenario.    Chief amongst these guys who look down their nose  in my orbit are outside sales reps , and mid level management of any company , which I always find hilarious. Especially since  they themselves are just peons with Bill Lumberg syndrome.  

Edited by bladehunter
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6 hours ago, 4thand11 said:

As I mentioned college golfers play without any caddies at all, and still manage to win tournaments and shoot low scores. 

 

If you’d watched any of the NCAA golf the past few days, you would have seen some players with the coach or assistant basically caddying for them - checking yardages, coaching, discussing and for a few players out there this is a big help and yes, allows them to play better. Some don’t need it, some it helps. 
 

Seems like whenever someone makes a point to get attention on a thread by declaring their opinion to be “unpopular”  there is usually little or no real substance to the hot take. 
 

I’ll defer to (and not insult, as someone did) a former pro/caddie who has weighed in on lots of things over the years in here as to his opinion, and also to a real caddie working at the job. 
 

In general, some caddies get more attention, most get zero attention, and I’m not seeing the “overrated” at all as a general proposition. If a player says his or her caddie was an integral part of performance that week then I have no reason to doubt that. If a player says a caddy is unnecessary, so be it. 

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13 hours ago, 4thand11 said:

Stricker won with his wife on the bag.

Kuchar won with random caddie in Mexico.

Cink won with his son on the bag.

Sam Horsefield just won on the Euro Tour with his gf on the bag.

 

Nothing against guys like Bones and Fluff but honestly, how much can it matter when you can win with a random family member carrying your clubs?

 

The media loves to hype up some caddies but they really make a marginal difference imo.

 

 

I think this site should require caddies for anyone registering so that members can be prevented from posting dumb things. 🤔

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Posted (edited)

Agree that the answer to this depends completely upon the specific relationship between caddie and player. The caddie is very important to some players, less so to others. It just depends, and is totally situational. 
 

Also…..100% correct that most of the work is what fans don’t see, especially if your player is a heavy practicer! I never got to the big tour, but I spent some short time on the Hogan/Nike tour. This was before the Tiger Tide lifted all boats, and let me tell you it was LEAN financially! In fact I lost money, and a lot of it, out there. Made far more at the club level.

 

Have said this before….I’ve had a great professional career and I like my job, but the most fun I ever had working was caddying, even at the club level. It was absolutely awesome and I have so many good, and funny, memories from those times.  

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17 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Amen.  Nail  on the head.  
 

I could write a short novel on that scenario.    Chief amongst these guys who look down their nose  in my orbit are outside sales reps , and mid level management of any company , which I always find hilarious. Especially since  they themselves are just peons with Bill Lumberg syndrome.  

 

So, it's fair to say you feel much the same about them as they feel about you?   

 

 

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9 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

As a guy that made his living as a tour caddie for over 30 years, I naturally take offense to the OP's statement.  But I'm an old man and don't care too much.

 

The reality lies in @TobesSCstatement above.  Who do you think spends the time mapping out the course while the player is working with their coach or doing interviews or commercials or sponsor commitments?  The caddies.  We are out there Monday-Wednesday looking for angles and distances, runoffs and slopes, rolling balls on the green at possible pin locations, talking to the grounds crew about watering and mowing plans for the week, the list goes on and on.  

 

That doesn't even touch the therapist aspect of the game.  

As far as the pay comment, most contracts are now between $750-2,000 a week plus a 10% cut of the purse.  Out of that comes meals, travel expenses (which are steep), hotel, rental car (split with other caddies or your player), sneakers (lots of them), etc...  If your player doesn't make the cut, they don't get paid.  I was on the road anywhere from 35-50 weeks a year some years.  

 

Some of the top players pay their caddie a yearly salary on top of the purse cut.  But those deals are limited to the top 15 players in the world and those caddies with a resume.

 

If you want to try it, show up at a Korn Ferry event sometime and hang out in the parking lot.  There will be some no name Monday qualifier looking for a looper.  Korn Ferry and Epson pay $100-200 a week.

I imagine there is a great psychological benefit to the player not to be alone out there. Am I correct?

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For something to be overrated we have to assume most people rate them pretty highly , and i'm not sure there's a large contingent of people who really believe caddies are making the players. As has been pointed out there's probably some guys where there's a real value and some guys where there is not

 

I can't recall reading many columns etc suggesting this or that caddy is winning tournaments for players

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

That's not the case at all.  I think this thread is about "questioning" the value the caddie brings to the player, not the value of the caddie's job compared to other workers.  

 

Bottom line - does a guy like Bones or Greller add any value to a player's ability to make shots or is the caddie role simply a necessity and therefore overrated?  

 

 

 

 

BTW:  There are plenty of hard-working guys around here such as the guy that works in the foundry or the cell tower climber or the abalone diver.   Stop being so sensitive. 

 

 

 

ESPECIALLY the abalone diver.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by DON SVO
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No idea if overactive caddies are overrated, but they’re certainly annoying.  If you go to a tournament, you’ll spend most of your time watching two guys hunched over a yardage book and solemnly debating like members of a Scandinavian parliament.

I know it’s all the rage for players in individual sports to talk about “my team,” but enough already. I recall reading Jack Nicklaus saying something to the effect of, I like Angelo but I’m not gonna ask him what club to hit. I like that. 

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42 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Amen.  Nail  on the head.  
 

I could write a short novel on that scenario.    Chief amongst these guys who look down their nose  in my orbit are outside sales reps , and mid level management of any company , which I always find hilarious. Especially since  they themselves are just peons with Bill Lumberg syndrome.  

Or as my wife will say the Pizza Hut assistant manager syndrome 

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10 hours ago, isaacbm said:

I know my opinion is not the norm when it comes to the subject. I think caddying is the single most overrated profession in the entire world. There is literally no other profession that people are guaranteed the pay the caddies are guaranteed for doing as little as they do.

   I both played professionally and Caddied professionally. When I played, I almost never took a caddy. I’ve shot multiple rounds of 60 to 63 in tournaments pushing my own bag on a trolley, carrying it, and taking a cart. 
    If I were to take a caddy the only person I would want there would be a close friend/girlfriend/wife that made me feel comfortable and was just somebody to hang out with between the shots. The last thing I want is anybody’s opinion on reading the greens, picking a club, or backing me away from a shot when I’m ready to hit. 
   Again, just me. 

 

Isn't the actual job itself overrated too though? Like the pay sounds good but it comes with a ton of travel and you are paying a lot of these expenses right? Maybe some players pay airfare for their caddies but are they paying hotels and stuff too? Plus you lack a lot of control over your career.

 

Like i have friends with sales jobs or marketing jobs that are making decent money (say, <100K) but i think they have still it better in an overall sense than anyone but the very top caddies.

 

Maybe that's crazy. But i don't find it to be a particularly appealing job. Unless you hit the jackpot and end up with a top 5 player who is very generous and also only plays like 15-18 times a year

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Angelo did have to know all of the yardages. I read that Jack hit a really wayward drive the last time Angelo caddied for him and when he asked Angelo the yardage, Angelo said that is was “about” XYZ yards and Jack replied, “About?”

 

I don’t know if it’s true, but that doesn’t stop us around here.

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48 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Amen.  Nail  on the head.  
 

I could write a short novel on that scenario.    Chief amongst these guys who look down their nose  in my orbit are outside sales reps , and mid level management of any company , which I always find hilarious. Especially since  they themselves are just peons with Bill Lumberg syndrome.  


 

Wayyyy back I had an issue with the vp of the brokerage house I was using. 
 

I wasn’t pleased at all so I just said, “ok thanks”

 

Then I called the CEO. This was a billion dollar international financial services company. 
 

I shmoozed his secretary and she put me through. Nice guy. The big dogs usually are, as you say, it’s the middle managers who are annoying. 
 

He’s like, I’ll take care of this, thank you for your business. 
 

Next day I got a call from that vp, he couldn’t have been nicer ; )

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Could this say more about the personality of caddie and who is best to get the most out of their player. Whether that be a partner or a long time pro. A caddie that can simply say the proper thing at the right time or make them calmer or hype them up whatever emotion it may be could be just as useful. So yeah maybe some caddies are overvalued (although I think JT may have something to say on this after his PGA win), but its much like coaching, every player may need something different out of their caddie.

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1 hour ago, Greg_B said:

 

I think this site should require caddies for anyone registering so that members can be prevented from posting dumb things. 🤔

 

Odd that such a non-controversial statement as caddies get too much credit for how their players perform, would cause so much outrage.

 

Eh that's why they call it an opinion.  I stand by it.  The attempt to make caddies into celebrities in their own right, and giving so much of the credit to them when a guy plays good, is way over the top.  Caddies do a job and yes I'm sure in many different ways it's easier with one than without, and can be nice to have a teammate on the course with you out there.  None of which means they cannot be overrated.  

 

Greller was a middle school teacher I believe, who happened to pair up with one of the best players in the world.  How much of Speith's success is because he had Greller and not another caddie?  I'd argue zero or close to it.  

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15 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:


 

Wayyyy back I had an issue with the vp of the brokerage house I was using. 
 

I wasn’t pleased at all so I just said, “ok thanks”

 

Then I called the CEO. This was a billion dollar international financial services company. 
 

I shmoozed his secretary and she put me through. Nice guy. The big dogs usually are, as you say, it’s the middle managers who are annoying. 
 

He’s like, I’ll take care of this, thank you for your business. 
 

Next day I got a call from that vp, he couldn’t have been nicer ; )

 

It depends on the company, but you don't always see how the nice CEOs and VPs are treating the horrible middle managers when you aren't around LOL.

 

Middle management sucks in a lot of ways. Managing people when you can't really change anything or help them is the worst. Also the blame to credit ratio seems hilariously skewed one way LOL. It's no wonder middle managers are always mad. I mean not every place is like this but many are

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

If Justin Thomas shot 10 over and missed the cut would anyone blame Bones?  Was it his poor caddying that caused JTs demise?

 

Well plenty of guys did miss the cut.  And if they did it's almost certainly because they played bad, and not because the caddy had an off week. 

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1 hour ago, DON SVO said:

 

ESPECIALLY the abalone diver.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I recently read an article about the "sea women" of South Korea.  The women divers called are  haenyeo.  For centuries they have navigated the cold waters, swimming and diving to the sea bottom without tanks, in order to harvest abalone, conch and octopus. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

It depends on the company, but you don't always see how the nice CEOs and VPs are treating the horrible middle managers when you aren't around LOL.

 

Middle management sucks in a lot of ways. Managing people when you can't really change anything or help them is the worst. Also the blame to credit ratio seems hilariously skewed one way LOL. It's no wonder middle managers are always mad. I mean not every place is like this but many are

 

 

 

 


 

Ya, I get it. Middle managers want to be nice to the troops but are the ones who get slammed for bad performance (and ideally praised for good performance) Tough spot. 
 

In business, It’s like Tony says,

 

**** runs downhill, money goes up. It’s that simple ; )

 

576A9B18-A1A2-47BE-AD2F-54EB80AA16D2.jpeg

Edited by bscinstnct
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1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Isn't the actual job itself overrated too though? Like the pay sounds good but it comes with a ton of travel and you are paying a lot of these expenses right? Maybe some players pay airfare for their caddies but are they paying hotels and stuff too? Plus you lack a lot of control over your career.

 

Like i have friends with sales jobs or marketing jobs that are making decent money (say, <100K) but i think they have still it better in an overall sense than anyone but the very top caddies.

 

Maybe that's crazy. But i don't find it to be a particularly appealing job. Unless you hit the jackpot and end up with a top 5 player who is very generous and also only plays like 15-18 times a year

 

I know it's been a while but it's time once again for "Ferguson's Post Feedback"  

 

 

 

Isn't the actual job itself overrated too though?

Yes.  The TV commentators make it seem as is if carrying a heavy bag in the elements for 72 is glamourous and fun. 

 

Like the pay sounds good but it comes with a ton of travel and you are paying a lot of these expenses right?

Most people don't consider the cost and expense sections of the P&L.  

 

Maybe some players pay airfare for their caddies but are they paying hotels and stuff too?

Again, the cost and expenses are rarely thought of "in the moment."

 

Plus you lack a lot of control over your career.

You become a glorified servant or taxi driver.  

 

Like i have friends with sales jobs or marketing jobs that are making decent money (say, <100K) but i think they have still it better in an overall sense than anyone but the very top caddies.

Excellent salespeople build a solid foundation of customers.  This brings sales less dependent on price thus allowing less daily hand-holding, ultimately leading to more freedom and the control of one's day. 

 

But i don't find it to be a particularly appealing job.

There are so many other things to do in life. Is there a GOAT caddie?   No. 

 

Unless you hit the jackpot and end up with a top 5 player who is very generous and also only plays like 15-18 times a year.

Sounds like a marriage without problems.   It's rare.

 

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19 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

I recently read an article about the "sea women" of South Korea.  The women divers called are  haenyeo.  For centuries they have navigated the cold waters, swimming and diving to the sea bottom without tanks, in order to harvest abalone, conch and octopus. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ha! Funny you mention that. I'll give you a segue to your segue: harvesting mandarin oranges and tourism have killed the haenyeo tradition.

 

Now, back to "why caddies are useless"!

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2 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

So, it's fair to say you feel much the same about them as they feel about you?   

 

 

Difference is that I can do.  I’m a producer.  

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3 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:


 

Ya, I get it. Middle managers want to be nice to the troops but are the ones who get slammed for bad performance (and ideally praised for good performance) Tough spot. 
 

In business, It’s like Tony says,

 

**** runs downhill, money goes up. It’s that simple ; )

 

576A9B18-A1A2-47BE-AD2F-54EB80AA16D2.jpeg

 

I prefer "Drive" where Albert Brooks tells Ron Perlman that the money always flows up, so then Perlman suggests they kill all their middle managers , and then Brooks stabs one in the eye

 

That guy got it SLIGHTLY worse than me when I was a middle manager

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