Unpopular opinion: Pro caddies are extremely overrated

[Mark_Crossan]

5 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

You know their names because the second rate commentators that call golf on TV have nothing better to talk about. 

The commentators are overrated. 

 

JT demonstrated grit as he came from behind to win the PGA.  However, in order to win, others had to stumble.  Why do some people give Bones so much credit for wins but fail to mention the caddies of those who didn't make the cut?   

 

Case in point, several weeks ago there was an entire thread dedicated to Scheffler's caddie "being the catalyst" for the recent success. However, I saw no thread this week attempting to explain why or how the "catalytic effect" suddenly disappeared.  

 

 

The caddie is a necessity.  JT would have won with Steve Stricker's wife on the bag.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If a player comes out and credits the caddie then what more do you need to hear? JT isn’t gonna say that for the hell of it! He says it because he meant it. 
Caddies and players who don’t make the cut don’t get a mention because that’s the way the golfing world is, it follows who’s hot every week. Sometimes players play bad, it’s a fact of sport, a caddie could do and say all the right things but if a players playing bad then that’s that. It doesn’t mean that suddenly Ted Scott is crap and doesn’t work well with Scottie, Scottie is a human and will have off weeks. 
 

My problem with these opinions on caddies is that they’re all based on how you perceive what a caddie does or in one instance I read on here ‘what a buddy says’ but unless you’ve actually been there and done it, seen the bonds on tour and trust players place on their caddies first hand then I’m sorry but your opinion is incorrect and genuinely irrelevant. I could talk s**t on every single one of your jobs and say that’s my opinion but until I’ve been there and done that then my opinion is actually irrelevant because I don’t truly know. 
 

Every player/caddie relationship is different so you may work for someone who doesn’t want much, you may work for someone who wants everything doing and places their livelihood on you. It just varies from each pair but I will say, there’s a lot more critical stuff that goes on that you’ll never see through a TV set. 

[TiScape]

5 hours ago, tw_focus said:

OP is basically right, caddies are like the head athletic trainer for the GS warriors. I'm sure the guy is really competent at his job, if he were to not show up one day then everyone would notice and it would suck, but does he really provide much value over a similarly competent replacement  who is waiting in the weeds? Unlikely.

 

The problem is that most WRXers have never played anything resembling professional golf and are not skilled golfers themselves. They might remember the time they took a caddie to Pebble. "Wow, I was going to aim there, and it would have been in the water if not for the caddie! And I thought that putt was breaking right, caddie was right that it broke left! He saved me 5 strokes!" Well you're thinking like a rank amateur, not a professional, and it shows. Pros are mostly capable of reading their own greens and rarely ask caddies for confirmation or opinions. They have played all those courses, done their homework, and know all the lines. So stop thinking like you and think like TW. What does TW get out of a caddie? There are a few things, probably things that you wouldn't think of, but they rarely if ever add up to a single stroke gained over a replacement level guy.

How familiar are you with the NBATA and the specific role of athletic trainers at the highest level of professional sports? I can assure you that not all HAT at that level are simply interchangeable like pegs in a board. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by TiScape

[Titleist99]

28 minutes ago, Mark_Crossan said:

If a player comes out and credits the caddie then what more do you need to hear? JT isn’t gonna say that for the hell of it! He says it because he meant it. 
Caddies and players who don’t make the cut don’t get a mention because that’s the way the golfing world is, it follows who’s hot every week. Sometimes players play bad, it’s a fact of sport, a caddie could do and say all the right things but if a players playing bad then that’s that. It doesn’t mean that suddenly Ted Scott is crap and doesn’t work well with Scottie, Scottie is a human and will have off weeks. 
 

My problem with these opinions on caddies is that they’re all based on how you perceive what a caddie does or in one instance I read on here ‘what a buddy says’ but unless you’ve actually been there and done it, seen the bonds on tour and trust players place on their caddies first hand then I’m sorry but your opinion is incorrect and genuinely irrelevant. I could talk s**t on every single one of your jobs and say that’s my opinion but until I’ve been there and done that then my opinion is actually irrelevant because I don’t truly know. 
 

Every player/caddie relationship is different so you may work for someone who doesn’t want much, you may work for someone who wants everything doing and places their livelihood on you. It just varies from each pair but I will say, there’s a lot more critical stuff that goes on that you’ll never see through a TV set. 

Agreed 100%.....

[Titleist99]

Let me introduce logic to the conversation.....(LOL!)

Any profession that would give an employee a straight salary and/or a percentage of 10% (negotiable) of future earnings must, I repeat must have significant value.
I could list a number of task performed by the caddy but the most important one is comfort. 
I've heard Jack and Arnie mention the need for a great caddy. Great players don't change them that often......by the way bones didn't last 25 years with Phil because of his looks.....Just my opinion of course,
 

[Ferguson]

16 minutes ago, Mark_Crossan said:

If a player comes out and credits the caddie then what more do you need to hear? JT isn’t gonna say that for the hell of it! He says it because he meant it. 
Caddies and players who don’t make the cut don’t get a mention because that’s the way the golfing world is, it follows who’s hot every week. Sometimes players play bad, it’s a fact of sport, a caddie could do and say all the right things but if a players playing bad then that’s that. It doesn’t mean that suddenly Ted Scott is crap and doesn’t work well with Scottie, Scottie is a human and will have off weeks. 
 

My problem with these opinions on caddies is that they’re all based on how you perceive what a caddie does or in one instance I read on here ‘what a buddy says’ but unless you’ve actually been there and done it, seen the bonds on tour and trust players place on their caddies first hand then I’m sorry but your opinion is incorrect and genuinely irrelevant. I could talk s**t on every single one of your jobs and say that’s my opinion but until I’ve been there and done that then my opinion is actually irrelevant because I don’t truly know. 
 

Every player/caddie relationship is different so you may work for someone who doesn’t want much, you may work for someone who wants everything doing and places their livelihood on you. It just varies from each pair but I will say, there’s a lot more critical stuff that goes on that you’ll never see through a TV set. 

 

Of course JT is going to mention Bones.  99% of all winners do the same thing in some form or fashion (except Matt Kuchar). 

It's professional protocol.  It's expected, and therefore he did it.  JT was being cordial. 

 

Bones is NOT the reason JT won the PGA.  In fact, I believe and know JT's dad had more impact on JT's recent win than Bones.  His dad was there from the beginning and taught his kid how to dig down, fight and win.  Bones is only a recent add, and serves to advise his player of yardage and wind direction, that's it, period end of story.    

 

Is Bones at the Thomas house on Thanksgiving? 

No effin' way.  

 

It's not my opinion.  It's fact.  JT won a PGA without Bones.  And if the caddie/player bond is so strong, why did JT get a new caddie?  Was it to get a stronger bond?   Are they soulmates?   No.   

Bones is there to do a job. 

 

[Mark_Crossan]

4 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

Of course JT is going to mention Bones.  99% of all winners do the same thing in some form or fashion (except Matt Kuchar). 

It's professional protocol.  It's expected, and therefore he did it.  JT was being cordial. 

 

Bones is NOT the reason JT won the PGA.  In fact, I believe and know JT's dad had more impact on JT's recent win than Bones.  His dad was there from the beginning and taught his kid how to dig down, fight and win.  Bones is only a recent add, and serves to advise his player of yardage and wind direction, that's it, period end of story.    

 

Is Bones at the Thomas house on Thanksgiving? 

No effin' way.  

 

It's not my opinion.  It's fact.  JT won a PGA without Bones.  And if the caddie/player bond is so strong, why did JT get a new caddie?  Was it to get a stronger bond?   Are they soulmates?   No.   

Bones is there to do a job. 

 

I never said JT Would or wouldn’t have won with Bones. All I said was if it didn’t matter who was on the bag and he was just someone irrelevant then JT wouldn’t have mentioned him. 
 

Like I say, it’s your opinion that caddies are overrated but unless you’ve been there and done it you can’t genuinely have an educated opinion. Just a guess I’m afraid. 
 

Sure Bones might not be at JT’s house at thanksgiving but I know of plenty players and caddies who’ve attended each other’s weddings and bachelor parties etc. 

 

As for Bones being there for yardage and wind and that’s it….. this comment shows how naïve you are and how little you know about he subject. Genuinely made me laugh out loud reading that 

 

You underestimate it because you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. We can argue until we are blue in the face but at the end of the day, you’re guessing about something you don’t know the answer to. 

 

[4thand11]

1 hour ago, PoolPond said:

Your entire theory is flawed, just like so many theories.  You named 4 incidents out of 100,000+ and then jump to the conclusion that because of your four instances, they hold true for everything. I assume you've been on tour and have had a caddy to also help you come to this conclusion? What is true, as you post, is that this idea is just "in your opinion". Well, you could also have the opinion that the earth is flat but you'd be just as wrong with both opinions. For every one of those four instances your reference, you can find 100 players who will give massive props to their caddy for helping them win.  The players themselves know, obviously, you do not know. 

 

Obviously yes I just listed a few examples I am aware of.  I'm sure there are others where the caddy adds little to the players success that we never notice or hear about. 

 

Again people seem to be misconstruing "overrated" with "useless".  Yes they are useful.  Yes it's a physically demanding job.  Yes some are probably better at it than others, like most jobs.  

 

None of which means their importance isn't overrated, especially by the golf media.

 

I remember all the love Joe Torre got when he managed the Yankees.  I mean he played the same lineup every day and then called in Mariano Rivera in the 9th.  Pretty tough to screw it up.  Just like it would be tough to be a bad enough caddy that Rahm would suddenly not be a top player.  

[Ferguson]

25 minutes ago, Mark_Crossan said:

I never said JT Would or wouldn’t have won with Bones. All I said was if it didn’t matter who was on the bag and he was just someone irrelevant then JT wouldn’t have mentioned him. 
 

Like I say, it’s your opinion that caddies are overrated but unless you’ve been there and done it you can’t genuinely have an educated opinion. Just a guess I’m afraid. 
 

Sure Bones might not be at JT’s house at thanksgiving but I know of plenty players and caddies who’ve attended each other’s weddings and bachelor parties etc. 

 

As for Bones being there for yardage and wind and that’s it….. this comment shows how naïve you are and how little you know about he subject. Genuinely made me laugh out loud reading that 

 

You underestimate it because you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. We can argue until we are blue in the face but at the end of the day, you’re guessing about something you don’t know the answer to. 

 

 

I know.  Trust me, I know. 

 

 

[Mark_Crossan]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

I know.  Trust me, I know. 

 

 

Wasn’t sure about your argument but that definitely swayed me me 👀

[Ferguson]

2 minutes ago, Mark_Crossan said:

Wasn’t sure about your argument but that definitely swayed me me 👀

 

We agree to disagree.  

[CasualLie]

3 hours ago, MJBGolf said:

Ok, it’s your opinion and everyone is free to have their opinion. If we are talking about players like Stricker, Westwood and a few other guys on tour, DJ has got his bro on the bag and they’ve been working for quite a few years now. All that matters is what works in the long run. If you listened to JT after his win in The PGA Championship, he was clear about the role and the impact “Bones” had on his performance and the likeliness of coming out on Top, without his partnership with Bones. As an Amateur with limited access to The Tour and Pro golf at the highest levels, you get to see less than 5% of what’s really goin on between Players, Caddies and the whole team around the Players all year around. In some occasions the Caddie plays a vital role to the Player, in others not so much. As with CEO:s business will prolong quite well without CEO:s and can do so for an extended period of time if the product or service is in line with high demand. I’d say from my perspective, be careful of disregarding a whole group of professionals in one go. I know Caddies who are extremely professional and adoptive to the circumstances, as well as I know a number of CEO:s who are as professional and competent at what they do. Are they having an impact? They certainly do in the long run…….😉

 

One of the worse comparisons I have ever seen on golfwrx.  Worse case scenario, caddie is a mess then that affects two people - the player (as their chances of a win go down the tubes), and the caddie (after messing up the player then their future job prospects go right down the tube).  But a CEO going sideways?  That can affect the entire company and every employee with it.  It can affect investors and all kinds of related companies who depend on that company as their suppliers/vendors.

 

Any company that can prolong quite well without the CEO is most likely a garbage company to begin with.  Any decent company would know, a CEO can drop dead and before you even break out the tissue, first appoint an acting CEO for the time being.

[CasualLie]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Let me introduce logic to the conversation.....(LOL!)

Any profession that would give an employee a straight salary and/or a percentage of 10% (negotiable) of future earnings must, I repeat must have significant value.
I could list a number of task performed by the caddy but the most important one is comfort. 
I've heard Jack and Arnie mention the need for a great caddy. Great players don't change them that often......by the way bones didn't last 25 years with Phil because of his looks.....Just my opinion of course,
 

 

This is a very good point and pretty much impossible to debate given most PGA Tour players would dump anything close to resembling excess baggage if that means more money in their pocket.  It's not just "tradition" that is keeping the caddies employed.

 

But as @4thand11 pointed out, you can be valued and overrated; it's just a label from two different audiences.  TV does carry on a bit too much about the caddie stuff.  But that's my personal opinion; I can do without a lot of the "fluff" on TV when it comes to golf coverage.

 

It would be interesting to see a tournament or two with carts, laser range finders, and no caddies...let's see who can play all on their own for big bucks.  

 

[Titleist99]

27 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

 

This is a very good point and pretty much impossible to debate given most PGA Tour players would dump anything close to resembling excess baggage if that means more money in their pocket.  It's not just "tradition" that is keeping the caddies employed.

 

But as @4thand11 pointed out, you can be valued and overrated; it's just a label from two different audiences.  TV does carry on a bit too much about the caddie stuff.  But that's my personal opinion; I can do without a lot of the "fluff" on TV when it comes to golf coverage.

 

It would be interesting to see a tournament or two with carts, laser range finders, and no caddies...let's see who can play all on their own for big bucks.  

 

Now a days it's a team effort......Just ask any Tour player including Tiger. Comfort and trust can't be overrated.........worth it's weight in diamonds and gold. IMO

[Mark_Crossan]

39 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

We agree to disagree.  

I can accept that 

[Murphy76]

 

A caddie is like having a wife:  They can make your life easier and happier, just so long as they don't talk too much.

[Shilgy]

18 hours ago, Big Cat 3 said:

BS 

I don’t know the yardage part but absolutely do recall Stevie talked him into lob instead of sand wedge.

[Righty to Lefty]

9 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

LOL, backhanding compliments by suggesting a caddie cost a player the PGA championship. Guy rushed his swing, nothing to do with the caddie - nothing. 

At no point in my comment did I say the caddie cost him the tournament...I said the caddie may have been able to save him by better recognizing that the tournament was slipping away and try to intervene by giving very specific instruction to try and help him get through it. He may have tried to...I was just relating what my buddy who is an LPGA caddy said and relating it to recent events where a caddy could be more valuable than just someone carrying the bag and giving yardages.

[mshills]

Let's not get this thread locked!

 

How about a different angle to the question:

What is different about players who rely heavily on the caddie, versus the "show up, keep up, shut up" player, or the one who does not want a caddie at all?

 

It is certainly not ability, as I've been up close and personal with FINE players in all categories.

 

I will say that absolutely no way is a caddie saving a touring professional 4+ strokes per round.  That happens a little more frequently the higher the player's handicap, up to a point of course.  I could occasionally save an 8-12 handicap 4 strokes in a round by basically not allowing them to do something dumb, or with help on the greens.  This is not happening the better the player gets.....however at the highest level, maybe a seriously professional caddie (think Bones, Fannie, et. al.) saves the player 1 shot over the course of 4 days which can make a real difference.

[oughtaquit]

8 minutes ago, mshills said:

What is different about players who rely heavily on the caddie, versus the "show up, keep up, shut up" player, or the one who does not want a caddie at all?

I sense an opportunity to reiterate my earlier points, which didn’t get much traction, in restated form:

1.  I want to see how good the player is at playing golf, not how good he is at picking caddies. In that sense, the more valuable the caddie, the worse the product. 
2.  Caddie conferences add excruciating, mind-numbing, soul-killing hours to the round. I have zero interest in watching committee meetings. 

[Jifmoli]

This is so player depended there is no one answer. A bad caddie for sure is a nightmare for any player. But how much one needs or rates a caddie is very player dependent.

 

Clearly some players really value and play better with a certain caddie, or even just any caddie for that manner. A long-time playing partner always needed a caddie so he could concentrate on the game and not be occupied with cleaning the clubs, raking etc. And sure enough, the rounds he played without one were not good and he complained about not having a caddie. Personally I just use a caddie for an extra pair of eyes, but I'd rather not use one and won't if I start hitting more fairways, lol!. I don't want club choices from him or putting lines, etc. For me that should be the player's job. But that's just me.

 

But I can understand why others do want that contribution. Spieth is a good example. I doubt he would be where he is without the kind of interaction he has with his caddie. Tiger clearly said "we did it!" to his caddie after he won the 2019 Masters. Whatever value his caddie brings, it is important to him (I am sure it is not putting lines).

 

Whether that is shot advice, or just no hassle, or mental comfort (why probably you see a fair number of GFs, dads, sons, sisters, etc.). 

[bobfoster]

5 hours ago, Mark_Crossan said:

Every player/caddie relationship is different so you may work for someone who doesn’t want much, you may work for someone who wants everything doing and places their livelihood on you. It just varies from each pair but I will say, there’s a lot more critical stuff that goes on that you’ll never see through a TV set. 

Exactly this. (Said something similar.) The statement that "pro caddies are extremely overrated" is nearly meaningless. There is no standard caddy job description that gets posted on Indeed for goodness sake. What they do varies greatly based on what the player needs/wants, and the nature of their relationship. Anyone that has been to even a few PGA tourneys gets that.

[4thand11]

48 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Exactly this. (Said something similar.) The statement that "pro caddies are extremely overrated" is nearly meaningless. There is no standard caddy job description that gets posted on Indeed for goodness sake. What they do varies greatly based on what the player needs/wants, and the nature of their relationship. Anyone that has been to even a few PGA tourneys gets that.

 

Right but I'm not really referring to what they do.  I'm referring to how much impact they have on how well a player plays.  How much credit they deserve when their player happens to play well, or how much blame they deserve when the player happens to play poorly.  It's almost zero in my opinion because they are not swinging the club or hitting the ball.

 

Like I said if a pro player can randomly stick his son or gf or local guy or whoever on the bag for a week, and win a tournament against the best players in the world, then the caddy probably does not really make that much difference in the grand scheme of things. 

 

That's not to say a guy like Bones is not good at his job.  I am simply saying that him being good at his job, has a marginal impact on whether JT or Phil wins a golf tournament or not, since they are the ones actually playing the game.

 

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

10 hours ago, 4thand11 said:

 

Well plenty of guys did miss the cut.  And if they did it's almost certainly because they played bad, and not because the caddy had an off week. 

How is this explanation for these that find caddies virtually useless?

 

You're right!  If you went out and played a tour event a Bones or Stevie or Ted Scott or whoever is not going to get you a W.  Likely you will still finish dead last…after just two rounds.

However…JT says Bones helped him a ton that last day.  For the sake of argument let’s say he helped JT be just one stroke better.  That one stroke made JT an extra million or so.  Without that one stroke he misses the playoff.

So maybe…just maybe that is why you nearly always know the top players caddies and not lesser players.  It’s that one shot at a crucial time that can make all the difference in the world.

 

I don’t really understand why some posters think they know better than the player affected.  JT and Scheffler say they’ve been helped immensely.  Why do you think you know better?

 

edited to add-read the first couple pages and posted this.  I see @mshills posted similar on this page about one stroke can matter.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Shilgy

[isaacbm]

7 hours ago, Mark_Crossan said:

Caddied professionally where? PGA tour? Or lower tours?

Private clubs, resort clubs, lower tours, Canadian tour, Korn ferry tour, PGA tour,

 

“How far do we have to the pin here?” 

 

“We’ve got 13 yards Mrs. Johnson… May I suggest the 2-way chipper? “
 

 

[Jake0331]

I hope this is the comment that takes this thread to an unnecessary page 6. Most people on this thread have about 1.5 of 10 golf IQ. Most just don’t get it. Golf is an incredibly selfish sport, some of whom go on to display a remarkable amount of arrogance. Is a caddie necessary to a great round? Maybe, maybe not.
 

You can tell by the BST forum (which I wholly advantage from) the actual interest relative to the Instruction forum. Golf is about getting a ball into a hole. Which most golfers have no actual understanding of how to do that most effectively based on their actual skill at that moment. 
 

It is these threads (which I did not read in it’s entirety) that give me pause. This week we aren’t blaming the I’ll fitting 3 wood, it’s some other person. That three wood didn’t hit the shot, a neither did the caddie. I was told “good work today” once, on a professional tour, when the guy shot +1. There were many times he shot 67-69 etc that the bag went into the car without a word. 

[tw_focus]

6 hours ago, TiScape said:

How familiar are you with the NBATA and the specific role of athletic trainers at the highest level of professional sports? I can assure you that not all HAT at that level are simply interchangeable like pegs in a board. 

I am extremely familiar pal, probably more than you. Some are more competent than others, bad ones get replaced in good organizations that are dedicated to excellence.

[TiScape]

9 minutes ago, tw_focus said:

I am extremely familiar pal, probably more than you. Some are more competent than others, bad ones get replaced in good organizations that are dedicated to excellence.

1st of all, sincerely happy to be considered your pal. 2nd, based on your takes regarding TW, your posts have ZERO credibility. Sorry  🤷🏼‍♂️ 

I will agree with you that some are more competent than others, bad ones get replaced in good organizations that are dedicated to excellence. Brilliant and obvious take 🙄 

Edited May 27, 2022 by TiScape

[Go Cougs]

22 hours ago, isaacbm said:

I know my opinion is not the norm when it comes to the subject. I think caddying is the single most overrated profession in the entire world. There is literally no other profession that people are guaranteed the pay the caddies are guaranteed for doing as little as they do.

   I both played professionally and Caddied professionally. When I played, I almost never took a caddy. I’ve shot multiple rounds of 60 to 63 in tournaments pushing my own bag on a trolley, carrying it, and taking a cart. 
    If I were to take a caddy the only person I would want there would be a close friend/girlfriend/wife that made me feel comfortable and was just somebody to hang out with between the shots. The last thing I want is anybody’s opinion on reading the greens, picking a club, or backing me away from a shot when I’m ready to hit. 
   Again, just me. 

Allow me to introduce you to Jen:

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, 4thand11 said:

 

Right but I'm not really referring to what they do.  I'm referring to how much impact they have on how well a player plays.  How much credit they deserve when their player happens to play well, or how much blame they deserve when the player happens to play poorly.  It's almost zero in my opinion because they are not swinging the club or hitting the ball.

 

Like I said if a pro player can randomly stick his son or gf or local guy or whoever on the bag for a week, and win a tournament against the best players in the world, then the caddy probably does not really make that much difference in the grand scheme of things. 

 

That's not to say a guy like Bones is not good at his job.  I am simply saying that him being good at his job, has a marginal impact on whether JT or Phil wins a golf tournament or not, since they are the ones actually playing the game.

 

 

 

 

If you keep having to explain and restate what you meant …..

[MUNIGRIT]

I agree dont you Billy Ray!.........