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Unpopular opinion: Pro caddies are extremely overrated


4thand11
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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Superbrit said:

A good caddie would have talked Mito out of hitting driver

driver wasn’t the problem. it’s the right club on a 490yd uphill par 4

 

JT hit driver to win the playoff. why didn’t Bones throw his driver in the creek?  kind of a tough stance to praise one caddy and say another messed up when they made the same call. 

 

Mito put a piss poor swing on the ball. end of story. 

Edited by ChipStrokes
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7 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

driver wasn’t the problem. it’s the right club on a 490yd uphill par 4

 

JT hit driver to win the playoff. why didn’t Bones throw his driver in the creek?  kind of a tough stance to praise one caddy and say another messed up when they made the same call. 

 

Mito put a piss poor swing on the ball. end of story. 

 

No no no you're all wrong. A great caddie would've talked Mito into pulling 3 wood off the tee--and then quit when they had 234yds uphill into a well protected green with a major on the line

 

"hey we got the tee shot in play didn't we? But i can't help you with this one fella----yoooooyyyyyyy" (runs away)

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3 hours ago, golfortennis said:

So I had a qualifier for a provincial tournament yesterday, and a buddy caddied for me.  Let's not confuse this with any kind of professional tournament, but it was a golf tournament.  On one hole, because, among other things, the two guys I was playing with were so slow, I thought I was helping by knocking in my 1 footer, but I had to take a strange stance to not step in the guy's line.  I likely don't need to say what happened next.

 

Walking to the next tee, I said something, and my buddy said, "Mark that every time.  They won't do a damn thing to speed up, so don't compromise your game for them.  F'em. "  Along with a few other things(like cracking jokes when I got a little hot under the collar at myself), he was certainly helpful.  And I actually cost myself a number of shots not consulting him early on on putts.  Just had trouble with uphill/downhill on this course's greens.  SO they certainly do add to the party.  Not to mention not pushing my cart on this course kept me much fresher at the end.

 

Some caddies might be "overrated", but very few bring no value.

Wonderful story.....two things, never ever rake putts no matter the length and never straddle the putt to avoid stepping on another players putt line. Simply say "i'll wait"......every time. If you miss shorties like that, they tend to haunt you.......

 

I know that you know this but it can not be emphasized enough.....You're welcome

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1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

A good player would have known better. 

 

So I will have to take issue here.  Until you've been in that cauldron a few times(and you are a good player to even be there at that point), it's hard to say what a player knows.  You have a situation where a player is amped up, mental coaches or not, knows what is on the line, and for the most part, is likely feeling pretty good about themselves at that point.  ie., "this driver ain't going anywhere but the middle of the fairway."  

 

Perhaps you've never made a bad decision when the adrenaline is flowing, but that would put you in the very small minority of people.  These aren't robots, they're people.  

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Wonderful story.....two things, never ever rake putts no matter the length and never straddle the putt to avoid stepping on another players putt line. Simply say "i'll wait"......every time. If you miss shorties like that, they tend to haunt you.......

 

I know that you know this but it can not be emphasized enough.....You're welcome

 

His other contribution:  the course we played is somewhat in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by lots of farms.  One farmer must have spread manure earlier(it is the best, and cheapest fertilizer if your own livestock are producing it), and it was quite strong.  I spent a lot of time on a dairy farm growing up, so for it to bother me, it had to be strong.  We were on about 13 and my round had gone to pot by then, and I said "that smell has to be a manure spread,", he came back "I thought it was your golf swing."  That was after a tee shot.  I think I stopped laughing by the time I got to the ball.  

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

So I will have to take issue here.  Until you've been in that cauldron a few times(and you are a good player to even be there at that point), it's hard to say what a player knows.  You have a situation where a player is amped up, mental coaches or not, knows what is on the line, and for the most part, is likely feeling pretty good about themselves at that point.  ie., "this driver ain't going anywhere but the middle of the fairway."  

 

Perhaps you've never made a bad decision when the adrenaline is flowing, but that would put you in the very small minority of people.  These aren't robots, they're people.  

 

 

 

I said, "A good player would have known better." 

 

 

Here is the difference - the guys that choose correctly when "in the cauldron" have done so, because they've done so.   Experience outweighs everything, whether you are diving for abalone, pulling molten steel from an electric furnace or playing tournament golf. 

 

 

So, it begs the question - when does a player become a good player?  

 

.....and let's not go down the path that the caddie something to do with it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ferguson
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49 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

driver wasn’t the problem. it’s the right club on a 490yd uphill par 4

 

JT hit driver to win the playoff. why didn’t Bones throw his driver in the creek?  kind of a tough stance to praise one caddy and say another messed up when they made the same call. 

 

Mito put a piss poor swing on the ball. end of story. 

Bizarre that there's even a discussion about whether it was the right club. Of course it was. It was a par 4 that was almost 500 yards long.

 

Problem wasn't the club, it was the weirdly ugly, almost bizarre swing. If he made the same swing with a 3FW he would have gotten equally horrid results (just further away from the green). 

 

The pressure of standing on 18, facing the hardest hole of the course, with a narrow lead in the final round of a major cracked the poor guy. Isn't all of this obvious?

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5 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

I said, "A good player would have known better." 

 

 

Here is the difference - the guys that choose correctly when "in the cauldron" have done so, because they've done so.   Experience outweighs everything, whether you are diving for abalone, pulling molten steel from an electric furnace or playing tournament golf. 

 

 

So, it begs the question - when does a player become a good player?  

 

.....and let's not go down the path that the caddie something to do with it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, first of all, I think we are setting an incredibly high bar(even by wrx standards) if a guy having the lead on the 72nd hole of a major championship is not a good player.  Your ranking has to be high enough to get into the field to begin with.   And how do you get experience in that cauldron if you don't get there the first time?  The guy got a battlefield promotion from KFT.  He can play.

 

No caddie would have known he would put the swing that he did on the club.  I don't know if a 5 iron would have gone anywhere with that club.

 

  

 

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I don't find caddies overrated in general.  But it's like most things on this level...the Tour player's talent and abilities matter most.  It can overcome just about everything.  Without the talent...no amount of coaching, caddying, equipment, training will ever overcome the lack of ability and talent.

 

But most people don't understand how small the margins are on Tour.  Improve your scoring average by 0.25 strokes per round (1 stroke improvement over 4 rounds of golf) and that's worth nearly $1 million in earnings for a season.  So winning on Tour can happen without a full time caddie, but it's more likely to make a difference over the long haul.  

 

Some caddies are really good at reading greens and work fantastic with players that are not as good, but can trust their read.  Other caddies are really good at strategy and getting the player to play the shot that gives them the best odds of success.  Others are really good at knowing the player and their swing; helping them get back on track when their instructor is away or when they are in the middle of a round.

 

But mostly you need a caddie that you can jive with.  The average full-time tour pro plays about 25 events a year.  Spending all of that time with the same person for half a year requires a good partnership.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

 

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Lots of differing opinions on why they do or don't matter.  IMO at the end of the day the best caddies DO matter.  To what degree who knows but all you need is that little edge.  The caddie that tells you correct yardages, adjustment for wind, slope, the pep talks when needed, knowing when to keep up/shut up, talking player into/out of a shot, calming their players down all gives said player that ever so slight competitive edge.  That edge can make all the difference between being a superstar or best player to never win a major.   The best caddies do become legends and stars in their own right.  Scottie Scheffler seems to be a good example.  He changes caddies and goes on a tear to become Masters winner and #1 in the world.  Is that a coincidence?  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bobfoster said:

Bizarre that there's even a discussion about whether it was the right club. Of course it was. It was a par 4 that was almost 500 yards long.

 

Problem wasn't the club, it was the weirdly ugly, almost bizarre swing. If he made the same swing with a 3FW he would have gotten equally horrid results (just further away from the green). 

 

The pressure of standing on 18, facing the hardest hole of the course, with a narrow lead in the final round of a major cracked the poor guy. Isn't all of this obvious?

 

Of course it's obvious.  The player hits the ball.  Mito made a bad swing.

 

The fact that some people are blaming his caddy shows how results-oriented people are when it comes to caddies in general.  Mito makes a good swing and everyone's talking about what a great job his caddy did, guiding an inexperienced player to a major title.

 

Likewise if Greller hooks up with Smylie K. way back when instead of Spieth, he's suddenly not such an amazing caddy (not to mention a lot poorer).   The fact that we even know some of these caddies by name is funny to me.  

Edited by 4thand11
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12 minutes ago, 4thand11 said:

 

Of course it's obvious.  The player hits the ball.  Mito made a bad swing.

 

The fact that some people are blaming his caddy shows how results-oriented people are when it comes to caddies in general.  Mito makes a good swing and everyone's talking about what a great job his caddy did, guiding an inexperienced player to a major title.

 

Likewise if Greller hooks up with Smylie K. way back when instead of Spieth, he's suddenly not such an amazing caddy (not to mention a lot poorer).   The fact that we even know some of these caddies by name is funny to me.  

So they should walk around with hoods over their faces?  RH above explained it pretty clearly. RH probably knows more about golf stats and analysis than everyone on WRX combined---  If you don't want to acknowledge that then the ignorance is on you. 

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I'm near 100% confident in saying that if I was given the opportunity to caddy for a JT, Jordan, Tiger, or any average PGA golfer, they would win just as much and place just as high as with a professional on the bag.  Obviously you have to know golf well, study the course, and know the players yardages.  As much as I would like to say caddies are really important, they are extremely overrated.  Agree with OP.  

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43 minutes ago, jsixman said:

I'm near 100% confident in saying that if I was given the opportunity to caddy for a JT, Jordan, Tiger, or any average PGA golfer, they would win just as much and place just as high as with a professional on the bag.  Obviously you have to know golf well, study the course, and know the players yardages.  As much as I would like to say caddies are really important, they are extremely overrated.  Agree with OP.  

The player would be so frustrated with your ignorance he'd never make a cut,,,,,,,once he got rid of your nonsense he could then concentrate, therefore going on to make millions.......Yeah, a good caddy can't be underestimated.......(I kid)

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22 hours ago, mshills said:

 

How about a different angle to the question:

What is different about players who rely heavily on the caddie, versus the "show up, keep up, shut up" player, or the one who does not want a caddie at all?

 

It is certainly not ability, as I've been up close and personal with FINE players in all categories.

 

 

I would say that I've gotten some experience with this going from being an individual contributor in my career to managing others. 

 

I've always been a "don't micromanage me" kind of employee. You see I'm doing something wrong? Tell me. You see something I'm doing right that you want to see more of? Tell me. But generally I'm not going to go to my boss for daily task assistance, to bounce ideas off him [or, currently, her], or generally require much other than answer a question when I need it or intervene when he/she thinks it has to happen. 

 

I just assumed other people were like me. Then when it comes time to manage others, I QUICKLY found out they weren't. 

 

Yeah, some people are more talented than others. But that wasn't the case with the example I bring up. When I changed companies ~15 years ago, I came into a new company and one of my peers in the same job function was someone that I then, and still do, look up to. He knew how to do the job, and was excellent at it. I have learned a LOT from observing him. After a few years, I ended up getting promoted, and I was his manager. And all of a sudden he'd come to me to ask me questions, bounce ideas off of me, generally all about things that I knew he could do at least as well as I can. 

 

What I realized is that he simply needed a different relationship from a boss than I need from a boss. It wasn't talent. And rarely did I ever guide him other than the direction he already thought he should be going. But it helped him to talk things out sometimes. It was part of how he processed information and came to decisions.

 

Some players want very little from a caddie, carry the bag and keep the clubs clean. Some simply want technical information (yardage, wind, etc). Some want someone calming on the bag (Cink, Westwood, etc). Some want someone to bounce ideas about what shot to hit off of someone, as part of their process to develop confidence in their plan. 

 

It's not necessarily any difference in talent between these players; it has to do with their own personalities and need. 

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1 hour ago, jsixman said:

I'm near 100% confident in saying that if I was given the opportunity to caddy for a JT, Jordan, Tiger, or any average PGA golfer, they would win just as much and place just as high as with a professional on the bag.  Obviously you have to know golf well, study the course, and know the players yardages.  As much as I would like to say caddies are really important, they are extremely overrated.  Agree with OP.  

I bet you you wouldn’t last a day before being fired. If you haven’t caddied as a professional before and you were to do the job of a ‘professional’ I assure you you’d make a mistake before the round even begins. 
Like any job, it takes time to get good at and know all the ins and out you have to do. 
 

Not saying you couldn’t get taught how to be a good caddie and your responsibilities, just saying if you haven’t done it before and you walked into the job and took up a professionals role for a player. You wouldn’t last the day. 
 

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^^^^ Factual! As mentioned before, it’s like lots of things from painting a room to a musical performance. Most of the work is in the preparation. You don’t just show up, bag up, and get your money….that’s not how it works. 

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle. I think this thread started as a gripe against the media making stories out of caddies. Then the exaggeration started, and caddies are either worth multiple shots per round or are actually negative value (meaning someone who paid for the opportunity to caddie would do just as good a job.) Both are ad absurdum, used as a thought exercise, and of course I am exaggerating too. 

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40 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I would say that I've gotten some experience with this going from being an individual contributor in my career to managing others. 

 

I've always been a "don't micromanage me" kind of employee. You see I'm doing something wrong? Tell me. You see something I'm doing right that you want to see more of? Tell me. But generally I'm not going to go to my boss for daily task assistance, to bounce ideas off him [or, currently, her], or generally require much other than answer a question when I need it or intervene when he/she thinks it has to happen. 

 

I just assumed other people were like me. Then when it comes time to manage others, I QUICKLY found out they weren't. 

 

Yeah, some people are more talented than others. But that wasn't the case with the example I bring up. When I changed companies ~15 years ago, I came into a new company and one of my peers in the same job function was someone that I then, and still do, look up to. He knew how to do the job, and was excellent at it. I have learned a LOT from observing him. After a few years, I ended up getting promoted, and I was his manager. And all of a sudden he'd come to me to ask me questions, bounce ideas off of me, generally all about things that I knew he could do at least as well as I can. 

 

What I realized is that he simply needed a different relationship from a boss than I need from a boss. It wasn't talent. And rarely did I ever guide him other than the direction he already thought he should be going. But it helped him to talk things out sometimes. It was part of how he processed information and came to decisions.

 

Some players want very little from a caddie, carry the bag and keep the clubs clean. Some simply want technical information (yardage, wind, etc). Some want someone calming on the bag (Cink, Westwood, etc). Some want someone to bounce ideas about what shot to hit off of someone, as part of their process to develop confidence in their plan. 

 

It's not necessarily any difference in talent between these players; it has to do with their own personalities and need. 

i was gonna make a post driving at the same point but you said it better than i was going to. 

 

putting a blanket label of “overrated” on something that varies so much from player to player is almost impossible.

 

im sure there are guys who would be just fine if caddies went away. and i’m sure there are guys who wouldn’t be. the fact that they’d struggle without their caddy doesn’t negate their skill as a pro golfer. 

 

that kind of stuff exists in all sports. if you got rid of the headset connection between nascar drivers and their crew chief, some guys would struggle and some would be like “eh, fine, no big deal, i’m the one who drives the car anyway.”

 

that doesn't mean crew chiefs are overrated or that some drivers don’t belong on the track. 

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1 hour ago, Mark_Crossan said:

I bet you you wouldn’t last a day before being fired. If you haven’t caddied as a professional before and you were to do the job of a ‘professional’ I assure you you’d make a mistake before the round even begins. 
Like any job, it takes time to get good at and know all the ins and out you have to do. 
 

Not saying you couldn’t get taught how to be a good caddie and your responsibilities, just saying if you haven’t done it before and you walked into the job and took up a professionals role for a player. You wouldn’t last the day. 
 

 

 

Mark is a hoot at parties, I bet.

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16 minutes ago, 4thand11 said:

JT at +5 and on his way to a missed cut... guess Bones is just having an off week 🙄

He did his job and let JT enjoy his major victory without getting on him to focus back in for this week.

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As I poorly prefaced before, you would obviously need to know golf.  In my case, I know golf well, I'm a good golfer or maybe used to be, I've played many tournaments, I can read greens, wind, weather, read yardage books, etc.  In good shape to walk the whole course with a 50 lb. bag on consecutive days.  Give me a couple days to prepare with the player, and yeah, I think I'm good to go.  They're all saying their so important because in most cases the caddy and player are close, often childhood buddies or met through an acquaintance, college roommate, etc, and they pay them handsomely.  What's a player supposed to say? No, they're not really that important. 

 There's so many cases where this happens; Rory, DJ, Patrick Reed, Lee Westwood.  Yeah it's low percentage wise, but there's still a lot and the vast majority I'm sure we haven't even heard.  Who actually knows all the player/caddie combos on tour.  

I don't know, I've always wondered about this and have just concluded in my mind that their importance is really overrated. 

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7 hours ago, jsixman said:

As I poorly prefaced before, you would obviously need to know golf.  In my case, I know golf well, I'm a good golfer or maybe used to be, I've played many tournaments, I can read greens, wind, weather, read yardage books, etc.  In good shape to walk the whole course with a 50 lb. bag on consecutive days.  Give me a couple days to prepare with the player, and yeah, I think I'm good to go.  They're all saying their so important because in most cases the caddy and player are close, often childhood buddies or met through an acquaintance, college roommate, etc, and they pay them handsomely.  What's a player supposed to say? No, they're not really that important. 

 There's so many cases where this happens; Rory, DJ, Patrick Reed, Lee Westwood.  Yeah it's low percentage wise, but there's still a lot and the vast majority I'm sure we haven't even heard.  Who actually knows all the player/caddie combos on tour.  

I don't know, I've always wondered about this and have just concluded in my mind that their importance is really overrated. 

So you're saying you could loop at say the Byron Nelson tournament at Trinity Forest for a Pro and do Ok ? Sorry Cyclone dude, a couple days on the bag isnt going to cut it. You couldn't read the greens like a club caddie who has seen a  thousand putts from all angles on all the greens. 

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I think the guy saved me two shots, which was worth a lot of money to both of us." Undercover Tour Pro Golf Digest May 2019 @

 

 

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    • Ping G430 LST and Max drivers, G430 Max fairway wood & G430 hybrid  – 2022 Shriners Children's Open
      Ping G430 LST and Max drivers, Ping G430 Max fairway wood – 2022 Shriners Children's Open
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      • 169 replies
    • 2022 Sanderson Farms - Discussion and Links
      Please put and questions or comment here
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2022 Sanderson Farms - Monday #1
      2022 Sanderson Farms - Monday #2
      2022 Sanderson Farms - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2022 Sanderson Farms
      Jackson Suber - WITB - 2022 Sanderson Farms
       
       
       
       
       
      Pull out Albums
       
      Custom Toulon putter - 2022 Sanderson Farms
      Dean Burmester & Vince Whaley custom Cameron putters - 2022 Sanderson Farms
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 3 replies
    • 2022 Fortinet Championship - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Monday #1
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Monday #2
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Monday #3
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Monday #4
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Monday #5
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #1
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #2
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #3
      2022 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Augusto Nunez - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Harry Hall - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Kevin Roy - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Philip Knowles - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Harrison Endycott - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Tano Goya - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Alex Lee - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Rickie Fowler - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Beau Hossler - WITB - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Ryan Moore WITB – 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Zecheng "Marty" Dou WITB – 2022 Fortinet Championship
      S.H. (Seong-hyeong) Kim WITB – 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Vincent Norrman WITB – 2022 Fortinet Championship
       
       
       
      Pull out Albums
       
       
      Kramer Hickok’s custom Cameron putter - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      New Odyssey putter covers - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Kevin Tway's new Wilson Dynapwr driver - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Rickie Fowler with new Cobra King Tour irons - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Rickie Fowler, Ryan Brehm & Doug Ghim - Cameron putters - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Ping PLD putters - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Greyson Sigg - new Mizuno JPX 923 Tour irons - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Srixon MKII X5 & X7 drivers - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Fujikura Ventus Black TR and Red TR shafts - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Tyson Alexander's custom Cameron putter - 2022 Fortinet Championship
      Hideki Matsuyama's new Srixon ZX5 MKII LS driver (and putting drill) – 2022 Fortinet Championship
       
       
       
       
       
      • 10 replies
    • 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Discussion and Links
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Tuesday #1
      2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Tuesday #2
      2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions) - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ken Duke - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Jay Haas - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      David McKenzie - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Scott McCarron - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Brett Quigley - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Tim Petrovic - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Dickey Pride - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
      Tim O'Neal - WITB 2022 Ascension Charity Classic (PGA Tour Champions)
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 26 replies

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