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What is your criteria for "playing the tips"?


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27 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

That is a very efficient way to phrase what I spent way too many words saying. 

 

 

Again, I'm not saying people that don't have time to practice or get better can't play out there...I'm just saying don't play the tips. I work on my game a decent amount and there are days I can't break 80 from 6,200 yds. Golf is hard. Playing from the tips makes it harder. If someone is a super low cap, they are probably bored at shorter distances but for the vast majority the amount of variability and inconsistency in their games makes golf "interesting/exciting/challenging" from much less than 6,800 yds. And quickly, I just want to post a scorecard example here:

 

image.png.95f03e3c0b81f02f5603e1fdcfa6acde.png

 

This is a standard, higher end public golf course in my city. It has two par 5s that are over 600 yds long, a 480 yd par 4 and par 3s that average out to be about 200 yds. That just does not seem fun to me. 

 


The fours and fives look like a good balance. The dumb part is the par 3s being the same distance on the back. That’s just lazy course design. 

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10 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

Is your dispersion less using a fairway wood or hybrid off the tee? You would have that option more often at 6,500 yds, no?

 

Yes, for the most part.

 

I am a product of failed strategy in both directions.  I went for a long time playing the, "hit the fairway at all costs" type of mentality.  I would tee off with a hybrid (when I carried a hybrid) or an iron to keep it in play.  I played in a league where we played from the whites and because I was longer than most of the people I was playing against, I could usually stay right with them even teeing off with a 4i.  It was boring, plodding golf, that didn't really yield many birdies despite having some pretty good rounds and pretty decent fairways hit I didn't score all that well.

 

Then I got to digging deep into Strokes Gained because I was doing a lot of things at work involving regression analysis and data use.  It piqued my interest.  After kind of figuring that I was leaving strokes on the table so-to-speak by laying back just to keep it in the fairway, I almost went a 180 and hit driver exclusively.  It actually helped because it forced me to get more accurate or by virtue of hitting driver more, I practiced driver more and got better.  Then I wasn't able to play as often.  The "feel" I had formed from playing a bunch went away and keeping driver on the map (and other clubs) got harder.  Also, when you hit it a long way it can go a long way offline if things go badly.  I was dropping shots through penalties.

 

I walked the other day for my first 9 hole round of the year and shot a 43 with persimmon and old forged clubs.  Driver kicked my butt and it put me in some deep holes from a distance standpoint.  I don't use my modern stuff very often.  If I can play the old persimmon clubs from the back and score fair, when the modern stuff is pulled out by necessity for an event or something I do pretty well.

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I really don't think handicap comes into the decision.

I think it should be based on how far you can hit the ball and be in play most of the time.

I play whatever tees are at the 61-6400 yard range.

 9 handicap, Driver carry is about 215-220, 7 iron is 145-150, decent putter.

For me, I don't want all the par 4's at 400yrds+ or the par3's at 185-200yrds.

Just not fun for me and I ain't getting paid to play

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Distance played should equate to the distance you hit the ball, not handicap exclusively.  General rule of thumb is 36 x your 5 iron distance.  200 yard 5 iron is 7,200 yards.  Mine is 170 yard 5 iron and courses I play will be 6,100 to 6,200 yards.  The course distance you play should see you hitting a variety of clubs for approaches to par 4s.  Not wedges all day and not 3 woods all day.  You also should not be required to hit a perfect driver distance on every hole just to reach the hole in regulation. 

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8 minutes ago, smashdn said:

It was boring, plodding golf, that didn't really yield many birdies despite having some pretty good rounds and pretty decent fairways hit I didn't score all that well.

 

This describes me, except for the boring part. I play from 6,000 - 6,200 yds and hit 5W (225 carrry) or hybrid (205 carry) off a number of the par 4 tees. I typically hit 10-14 Greens but rarely make birdies since I usually have 15-30 ft putts. Typically shoot almost the same score every time out. I like the strategy and minimizing mistakes. I feel like playing farther back gives me less options rather than more. If I play from 6,800 yds+ I have to hit driver on most of the par 4s or else I can't reach them. Playing from 6,200 yds is still plenty challenging for a mid single digit AND I have the option to hit a variety of clubs off the tee. 

 

12 minutes ago, smashdn said:

I walked the other day for my first 9 hole round of the year and shot a 43 with persimmon and old forged clubs.  Driver kicked my butt and it put me in some deep holes from a distance standpoint.  I don't use my modern stuff very often.  If I can play the old persimmon clubs from the back and score fair, when the modern stuff is pulled out by necessity for an event or something I do pretty well.

 

I like the idea of using old school clubs and have dabbled myself but I find my vanity always pulls me back to modern equipment. Good on you for keeping it classic, @smashdn

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2 hours ago, Wham49 said:

I play the tips becasue it helps me keep the ball in play, the mens tees run out of room too quick and I need the extra room. I think it opens the course up and I don't need to be so precise about where I put my tee ball,

 

Respectfully, I hear this comment a lot and I think it is a ridiculous statement. When you say the "mens tees run out of room" you mean for your DRIVER. But, by playing up you can now hit a fwy or hybrid into the same landing zone as a driver from the tips. Which should, generally, mean you have a easier time finding the fairway, not harder. Someone please explain what this comment above means other than "it isn't fun to not hit driver." 

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How are you scoring that well without birdie opportunities?  That is what I think kills me, I can par and bogey a course to death.  The + numbers go on but there is little chance of them coming back off or being equalized because it is a rarity I have a birdie look.

 

I am either not getting on in regulation and having to chip/pitch up either due to a missed green or not on in regulation due to a bad drive and even if the next shot is "good" I may be so far back as to either not be on or playing 3 to the green due to needing to punch out/get ball back in play.  

 

The few birdies I get into are par fives where I just over power the hole with distance.  Big drive and iron on and two putt birdie or chip close and sink putt for birdie.  Every now and again the stars align.

 

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2 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

Respectfully, I hear this comment a lot and I think it is a ridiculous statement. When you say the "mens tees run out of room" you mean for your DRIVER. But, by playing up you can now hit a fwy or hybrid into the same landing zone as a driver from the tips. Which should, generally, mean you have a easier time finding the fairway, not harder. Someone please explain what this comment above means other than "it isn't fun to not hit driver." 

some people...like me include...dont hit their fairway wood that well compared to driver. usually a thin possible top. and usually goes 270-300 anyways. club after that is a 3 hybrid. built for a very high flight coming into par 5s or long par 3s. carry 230. again. built it that way for that reason. so that is the reason hitting driver is preferred. also people dont hit 3wood straighter than driver. that has been proven. they do hit it shorter though 

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9 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

Respectfully, I hear this comment a lot and I think it is a ridiculous statement. When you say the "mens tees run out of room" you mean for your DRIVER. But, by playing up you can now hit a fwy or hybrid into the same landing zone as a driver from the tips. Which should, generally, mean you have a easier time finding the fairway, not harder. Someone please explain what this comment above means other than "it isn't fun to not hit driver." 

If he plays from the tips and is able to hit driver and be in the fairway at the same distance as if he were hitting hybrid from further up, he reaps the benefit of the harder course rating between tees.

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6 minutes ago, smashdn said:

How are you scoring that well without birdie opportunities?

I have a ton of birdie opportunities, I just don't make many of them. That's the benefit of playing from that close, I often have a PW or less into most par 4s.  Typically I make 3-6 bogeys a round. So that works out to a 75-79. Of course this is not something I am boasting about since the differential on a 78 from the white tees is an 8.1 which is fairly average. 

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20 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

Respectfully, I hear this comment a lot and I think it is a ridiculous statement. When you say the "mens tees run out of room" you mean for your DRIVER. But, by playing up you can now hit a fwy or hybrid into the same landing zone as a driver from the tips. Which should, generally, mean you have a easier time finding the fairway, not harder. Someone please explain what this comment above means other than "it isn't fun to not hit driver." 

why dont we all drop from the 150 marker than we can just hit it on the green on every hole.

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1 minute ago, BombinJim said:

If he plays from the tips and is able to hit driver and be in the fairway at the same distance as if he were hitting hybrid from further up, he reaps the benefit of the harder course rating between tees.

 

The benefit of a lower differential, yes. Do most people care that much about that? I have never made a bogey on the number 1 handicap hole and patted myself on the back for "reaping the benefit" of a net par. Maybe that is just me. 

 

If I gave you 14 drivers that you had to land in a 45 yd landing zone and 14 hybrids to land in that same landing zone what would the split be? For me, my driver dispersion is close to 55 yds so even on a good day I am missing at least 3 of those. I will be realistic and say 4-5. With my hybrid, I might miss it once, maybe. 

 

13 minutes ago, makana said:

also people dont hit 3wood straighter than driver. that has been proven. they do hit it shorter though 

 

Then they should get a 4 or 5 wood. I am probably jinxing myself but I haven't missed a fairway with my 5 wood in like 3 rounds. Also, what about hybrid? I am just saying that for certain players, especially non low indexes, it helps to have options. 

 

16 minutes ago, makana said:

dont hit their fairway wood that well compared to driver. usually a thin possible top. and usually goes 270-300 anyways.

 

If you are hitting a thin 3 wood 300 yards then we are talking about 2 completely different games. I play almost all my golf as a single and I can't remember the last time I saw someone who could carry a 3W farther than 245. I know that everyone on WRX can but out in the wild I literally never see it. 

 

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Generally it should depend on how the course designer intended the course to be played. 36x your 5 iron distance, with the caveat of maintaining pace of play of the course, seems to check the box pretty well.

 

There are other adages such as average approach club on par 4’s being <7 iron, etc. which could be considered, too.

 

Any of these rules of thumb are subject to conditions of a particular day. If it’s 90 degrees and stale wind, chances are you can play farther back than if it were 50 degrees, rainy/wet conditions and 20mph wind gusts.

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I have no problem playing the tips on any course. Am I scratch? No, but I'm just a hair above single-digit, and have plenty of distance in the bag, so that never really becomes an issue. I also find that on a lot of courses, the tips offer a much more fun challenge on many holes, and that often comes with some better scenery from the back tees.

However, for me, pace of play takes precedent over what tees I play. Are the rest of the boys playing blues? Then I'm playing blues. If I'm playing with a female friend that is playing the reds? I'll play the blacks, because I'm already on a different tee box regardless. I'm not going to sacrifice faster play just to dig my heels in and require that I play the tips

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9 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

"I get 4.3 strokes from the tips...Why not play the back tees, hit driver to the same spot, and get 4.3 strokes?"

 

To me, that's what it comes down to. For those of us that hit it 250+ off the tee, we can generally get to a lot of the same spots and at worst hit maybe a 7- or 8-iron into the green and make par. 

 

If you want a low index, it's easier to move back and make par than it is to move up and make birdie. 

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1 minute ago, MelloYello said:

 

To me, that's what it comes down to. For those of us that hit it 250+ off the tee, we can generally get to a lot of the same spots and at worst hit maybe a 7- or 8-iron into the green and make par. 

 

If you want a low index, it's easier to move back and make par than it is to move up and make birdie. 

 

I also find that moving back to the tips can take a lot of danger out of play. Most notably on doglegs.

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1 hour ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

That is a very efficient way to phrase what I spent way too many words saying. 

 

 

Again, I'm not saying people that don't have time to practice or get better can't play out there...I'm just saying don't play the tips. I work on my game a decent amount and there are days I can't break 80 from 6,200 yds. Golf is hard. Playing from the tips makes it harder. If someone is a super low cap, they are probably bored at shorter distances but for the vast majority the amount of variability and inconsistency in their games makes golf "interesting/exciting/challenging" from much less than 6,800 yds. And quickly, I just want to post a scorecard example here:

 

image.png.95f03e3c0b81f02f5603e1fdcfa6acde.png

 

This is a standard, higher end public golf course in my city. It has two par 5s that are over 600 yds long, a 480 yd par 4 and par 3s that average out to be about 200 yds. That just does not seem fun to me. 

 

 

Different strokes I guess, there actually seems to be an interesting mix of yardages, the par 3s could vary more (and I don't get the point of 230+ yard par 3s) but I guess it depends on where they put the tee markers. From one set up I would be laying up on nearly every par 4 (without seeing the layout) other than the one long hole, which just isn't that enjoyable for me. And you trade 3 shot par 5s for a very reachable one, assuming it's not goofy. But I hit it much farther than most and I'd guess almost no one would venture back there on a typical day, if it mirrors what I tend to see around here. 

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1 minute ago, electroleum said:

 

I also find that moving back to the tips can take a lot of danger out of play. Most notably on doglegs.

 

Courses that were designed and built in the 60s, 70s and 80s were not designed for golfers playing the white tees to drive it 280-yds. That certainly does force a lot of today's players to compensate with dangerous lines, unnecessary shot-shaping and the use of a large collection of various tee clubs...none of which lead to consistency. 

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23 minutes ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

If I gave you 14 drivers that you had to land in a 45 yd landing zone and 14 hybrids to land in that same landing zone what would the split be? For me, my driver dispersion is close to 55 yds so even on a good day I am missing at least 3 of those. I will be realistic and say 4-5. With my hybrid, I might miss it once, maybe. 

Yeah my dispersion with driver is embarrassing at the moment, but I’m working on it. Which is why a go to for me is a 5W or 3/4i off the tee if I can’t live with the landing area with driver; sometimes that driver landing area is wider from the tips (at least on some holes).

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I much prefer to have the widest possible landing zone with the most handicap advantage available. If I am in a net competition, especially.  Most courses are designed with a landing zone, figure out the tee that lets you land your driver there.

 

I play golf for fun, and leaving driver in the bag is boring. I know I could shoot better if I did, but I paid to play the way I want to. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I think both factor but if you are single digit or better and hit it pretty far you could consider it, it just depends on how long the course is. 7200+ you should be hitting it around 280-300+, if it's shorter you don't need to be hitting it quite that far. The 5 iron distance times 36 seems like a decent rule of thumb.

 

A high handicap that hits it far could also consider it but I feel like they will be quite crooked and take forever. 

 

yeah, makes sense; I hadn't heard the 5-iron rule before (my 5-iron carry at this elevation is 205, probably 200 back home) so that 7200 yard course makes a lot of sense.  Yesterday, from the tips/championship tees (as this is a course that hosts a lot of high-level amateur and used to do Nike tour events), there was only one hazard that I didn't want to carry, and that was a bunker out 270, uphill, into a 8mph headwind.  That bunker is deep and you don't want to be there, so I hit right to stay clear rather than try to carry it. Of course, i crushed the ball, hit it through the dogleg and ended up in trouble anyways.  The next time I play there I am laying up right with a 3-wood at 260, hitting the hybrid to within 50 yards of the hole, and playing for a good chip and birdie opp.   

 

Everything else was well situated though: water carries were 260-270, bunkers were 255-270 out, so a good swing (not considering wind) carried everything, but nothing was a gimmie.  I like that challenge: I need to put a good swing on the ball. Now, if it were a 290 carry, it would be too much of a challenge, as I can it the ball that far but it has to be a really good swing.  

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2 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Someone that can hit a 5 iron 200 yards is probably a pretty decent player. And your average course is not going to be set up anything like a tour course. I hit my 5 iron that far and 7200 yards doesn't feel particularly long to me on a normal day. All that said, it's just to get a gauge of where you could potentially play, play wherever you are going to enjoy it most. 

 

yeah, and we are talking carry here as well.  I played 2 different courses from the tips last week and they all had multiple par 3s between 195-210 yards.  Perfect 5 and 6 iron territory; if you are swinging well, you are going to be on the green more often than not. I actually love those longer par 3s as I tend to hit my 5-iron well off of the tee.  The regular or senior tees are going to be 150 on that same hole.  

Where I get nervous is when I start seeing 230-240. That is a hybrid for me and a lot less easy to control.  

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2 hours ago, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

That is a very efficient way to phrase what I spent way too many words saying. 

 

 

Again, I'm not saying people that don't have time to practice or get better can't play out there...I'm just saying don't play the tips. I work on my game a decent amount and there are days I can't break 80 from 6,200 yds. Golf is hard. Playing from the tips makes it harder. If someone is a super low cap, they are probably bored at shorter distances but for the vast majority the amount of variability and inconsistency in their games makes golf "interesting/exciting/challenging" from much less than 6,800 yds. And quickly, I just want to post a scorecard example here:

 

image.png.95f03e3c0b81f02f5603e1fdcfa6acde.png

 

This is a standard, higher end public golf course in my city. It has two par 5s that are over 600 yds long, a 480 yd par 4 and par 3s that average out to be about 200 yds. That just does not seem fun to me. 

 

Based on that scorecard, I would probably play the blue tees. I only drive the ball about 250 and shoot mid 80's on average (call it an 85-95 score range). If I were to show up there for the first time as a tourist, I would probably hit off the blues or the white tees depending on where the people I got paired with played. Black is out of the question and gold would be too much of a challenge for my distance

 

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1 hour ago, Wham49 said:

why dont we all drop from the 150 marker than we can just hit it on the green on every hole.

 

Do you watch the PGA tour? They average 138 yds into a par 4 and they are the best in the world playing in competitions for millions of dollars trying to identify the best golfer in the world. 

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I tend to mix it up pretty good, it keeps the course fresh in my mind. 

 

Also, anyone notice when playing from further back you get better tee shot angles most of the time? Maybe just the courses around me but it seems the middle tees are sometimes just an afterthought to get the right distance without considering the whole hole.

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54 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

But I hit it much farther than most and I'd guess almost no one would venture back there on a typical day, if it mirrors what I tend to see around here. 

 

And you are a plus handicap. You should absolutely be playing the tips based on my criteria (which is only an opinion of mine and not something I am stating as fact). 

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58 minutes ago, electroleum said:

I also find that moving back to the tips can take a lot of danger out of play. Most notably on doglegs.

 

Okay, I will continue to talk about this even though I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind. When you talk about "taking danger out of play" on a dogleg from farther back, what do you mean? Here's an example (see below), the white line is 275 yds, the yellow line is 225. They both land in the same spot which is about 54 yds wide. If I gave you 10 shots from each tee box to hit that spot, which do you think you would hit more frequently and which would be in "danger" more often? I simply do not follow the logic that is bandied about on this. If it's more fun to play from the tips as @RmoorePE stated then that makes sense to everyone. But how are you in less danger on a dogleg from farther back (with the obvious caveat that you don't HAVE to hit driver on every hole):

 

image.png.7f1e9ee8aed47a75feb743a57618a2de.png

 

16 minutes ago, Warrior42111 said:

Also, anyone notice when playing from further back you get better tee shot angles most of the time? Maybe just the courses around me but it seems the middle tees are sometimes just an afterthought to get the right distance without considering the whole hole.

 

Whatever angle you are trying to get to from the back tees you realize you could get that same again from closer up by taking less club, right? Unless, again, the answer is just that people want to be able to hit driver most of the time because that is more fun. If that is the case then say that rather than this angles nonsense. 

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... For "actual players" it should be pretty simple. Play the course the way it was designed to be played. If there are fairway bunkers on both sides you should be able to reach them if you miss the fairway. If you can't reach them you are probably playing tees too far for your game. If you can fly them you are probably playing tees too short for your game, unless you are already at the tips of course. Same thing for approach shots. If a mid length par 4 has a deep front bunker with a shallow green, it is meant to be played with a short iron or worst case a mid iron. Using a long iron/hybrid/fairway wood won't be able to hold the green and that is if you make it over the bunker. Occasionally a course has one or 2 really long and difficult holes the do require more club but they are usually the #1 handicap hole and offset by some short possible drivable par 4's.

...  I used "actual players" because I have played with some that will play the tips but don't care about their scores and they keep up pace of play. 3 Indian gentlemen in their late 60's come to mind I played with in LA and none of them broke 110 or probably even 120 but they played fast, always moving unless I was hitting a shot then they stopped and waited until I hit, so they had excellent course etiquette. On the 10th tee I suggested they move up to the forward tees instead of the tips and one said "Oh no, we are maximizing our dollar value. You are paying twice as much to play as we are paying." I said we are both seniors and paid the same price and he quickly added "Not per shot. Per shot you pay twice what we pay" and I could not help but laugh as he certainly had a point. He went on to explain they played once a week, were not very good and just wanted to hit as many shots as possible. They felt if they played fast, fixed their divots and didn't get in anyones way, playing the tips was their best value. One of my favorite rounds of golf as they were fun guys, always complimented a good shot and really enjoyed playing golf. 

 

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1 minute ago, chisag said:

If you can fly them you are probably playing tees too short for your game

 

@chisag I think you always make reasoned and valid arguments. I enjoyed your post. Since this is a message board I have one quibble with the above statement because I think it is very important in this discussion. "If you can fly them" on bunkers, and I am thinking about an average golfer or worse (maybe a double digit hdcp) who technically "can" hit a driver 260 but usually averages more like 230 due to inconsistent contact and such. I think many golfers take their best drive on a given day, month, lifetime and think "I can hit the ball 260" when in reality they do it once a round. And again, if you are a mid double digit handicap then playing shorter golf holes will likely benefit you in that you don't have to pull driver on all the par 4s etc. 

 

Unfortunately I do not ever really get any traction in these conversations. I feel like I am one of the few people that actively plays courses shorter than the calculations and conventional math/wisdom suggest I should. My 5 iron carry on trackman is a rather pedestrian 180 yds which means I should be playing 6,480 yds but, instead, I much prefer 6,000 - 6,200 yds. I like to think I can be open minded but these arguments that tee shots are "more open" or "easier" from farther back has never ever ever made sense to me. That is only assuming you are hitting driver from both tees which is a bizarre assumption. 

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