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Billy Horschel and PGA Tour/DP World Tour Hypocrisy


DaddySwagMaster

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24 minutes ago, jdl said:

Meanwhile Li and Pieters heading to a playoff for the BMW title.

Li wins with an incredible finish. What a roller coaster ride down the stretch. Dude made some huge putts to make up for some really awful shots.

 

First playoff hole, his tee shot misses the tree and barely clears the hazard. Second shot goes through the green and almost rolls into the hazard. Skulls his chip 40 feet past the flag. Makes the putt to win.

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20 minutes ago, jdl said:

Meanwhile Li and Pieters heading to a playoff for the BMW title.

 

That was possibly the most emotional I've ever seen a tourney winner. Crazy finish.

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14 hours ago, DaddySwagMaster said:

I’ll help you out here. I opened a wrx account years ago and took a test drive of these forums back then and lost interest pretty quick. Just talking about clubs and grips and WITB of pros honestly doesn’t interest me much, but that seems to be the main emphasis of this forum. So I left because other things gained my interest. 
 

However, with the LIV in the news I don’t trust the main golf media to report factually or truthfully on LIV because they have an extreme bias against Norman, and they aren’t reporting the news about LIV without injecting their opinions in every story. 
 

So I cane back here to read other’s thoughts and opinions on LIV. To be clear, I’m simply looking for objective coverage of LIV. Whether you hate it or whatever, at least give it a chance to breathe. 
 

I’m not here to cheerlead for either LIV or the PGA Tour. I’m simply interested in gathering truthful information about LIV and what the rest of the golf world is doing in response, and I can’t really get that from blowholes like Brandel Chamblee on Golf Channel. Frankly I think it’s shameful that so many in the golf media are nothing more than pimps for the PGA Tour. I don’t trust them and I tune them out. 
 

That’s it, that’s my story. But frankly, I won’t stick around here because most of what I’ve read and seen doesn’t impress me as much more than a clique here where outsiders who haven’t been here and sacrificed on the altar aren’t welcomed. Don’t bother because I won’t waste any more of my time explaining myself or apologizing for asking questions that get overlooked and then insulted for thinking I’m a moron for not understanding how the system works, when if you had actually read the first sentence of my original post in this thread then you’d not have so easily dismissed me and mocked me. 
 

whatever. Carry on in your echo chamber. 

Oh, I’m sorry. You thought my post was about you? I was simply reacting to something another member said that just happened to be in your thread. Sorry for the confusion. This is like… 

 

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14 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Your issue isn’t with media. Or this site ( which is media already partnered with the pga tour ).  
 

it’s with the lack of a LIV echo chamber …. That’s just how it is. The majority of golf fans don’t want to see pro competition  turned into a short , shotgun , no cut event.  So the echo in favor of that is small.  
 

give it room ?  Why ?  They can have as much room as they buy.  The core fans will voice their displeasure at the attempt to dumb down golf.  It’s really odd to  even ask is to pretend that we like this.  It’s a non starter. DOA. 

Where did you get that the majority of golf fans don't want the shotgun no cut event.  just curious.  or is that the majority of golfwrx fans?  Norman claims in their global market research before launch fans wanted the team aspect of the format not sure about the rest.  Are you referring to some polling that was done?  honest question.  because anecdotally my golfing circle likes the shotgun start but wants tweaks. and the YTers that were at the event said it was presented very well and got a positive response from attendees.

 

Golf Channel, writers, etc are obviously ultra biased.  just trying to get some honest info here.

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15 minutes ago, Oldboy said:

Where did you get that the majority of golf fans don't want the shotgun no cut event.  just curious.  or is that the majority of golfwrx fans?  Norman claims in their global market research before launch fans wanted the team aspect of the format not sure about the rest.  Are you referring to some polling that was done?  honest question.  because anecdotally my golfing circle likes the shotgun start but wants tweaks. and the YTers that were at the event said it was presented very well and got a positive response from attendees.

 

Golf Channel, writers, etc are obviously ultra biased.  just trying to get some honest info here.

LIV Series Exhibition golf is a three-day 54-hole event with a college golf format. It has no way in which to qualify, nor do it supply world ranking points due to the weak fields. Maybe one day it might even get a television provider and move up from Youtube. I would be surprised if team golf supplant 72-hole stroke play......

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19 minutes ago, Oldboy said:

Where did you get that the majority of golf fans don't want the shotgun no cut event.  just curious.  or is that the majority of golfwrx fans?  Norman claims in their global market research before launch fans wanted the team aspect of the format not sure about the rest.  Are you referring to some polling that was done?  honest question.  because anecdotally my golfing circle likes the shotgun start but wants tweaks. and the YTers that were at the event said it was presented very well and got a positive response from attendees.

 

Golf Channel, writers, etc are obviously ultra biased.  just trying to get some honest info here.

Just my experience and it’s a fairly small sample size. But outside of this site I play a lot of golf at different courses and go to a couple different gyms several times a week. So quite a bit of small talk/interaction with different people. I have not talked to a single person that is a true fan of golf that has had anything favorable to say about the XVIII short league. 

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44 minutes ago, Oldboy said:

Where did you get that the majority of golf fans don't want the shotgun no cut event.  just curious.  or is that the majority of golfwrx fans?  Norman claims in their global market research before launch fans wanted the team aspect of the format not sure about the rest.  Are you referring to some polling that was done?  honest question.  because anecdotally my golfing circle likes the shotgun start but wants tweaks. and the YTers that were at the event said it was presented very well and got a positive response from attendees.

 

Golf Channel, writers, etc are obviously ultra biased.  just trying to get some honest info here.

This is the largest golf community online by a huge margin.  It’s pretty overwhelming pro pga tour here and is so minus any coercion from the management.  In fact they’ve moderated the topics with LIV specifically so that the few LIV fans can have a voice. And so that those topics don’t go out of hand.  If it were majority LIV support then why would they need moderation ? The small minority would be drowned out. Right ? 
 

sure it’s not empirical proof.  But it is a great indicator. Especially when you consider that it’s unbiased data compared to what Greg said. You can’t really take one side of the others word on obscure stats.  Of course Greg will pad the numbers. He had to coax the $ somehow.   
 

then we have to define “ golf fan”.    Fans of the pro game that we’ve had for a century now aren’t for changing it to something shorter and easier.  The people who are for that aren’t really pro golf fans …. They’re casual fans of a game (at best)  that might resemble golf. 
 

team formats ? Shotgun starts and no cut is just a different thing.  I’m all for someone liking that.  But if it’s to become the rule vs the exception , we need to find a new name for it. 

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27 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Just my experience and it’s a fairly small sample size. But outside of this site I play a lot of golf at different courses and go to a couple different gyms several times a week. So quite a bit of small talk/interaction with different people. I have not talked to a single person that is a true fan of golf that has had anything favorable to say about the XVIII short league. 

Myself as well......I watch all kind of golf and I never knew that team golf was a thing.....

I might watch a day or two of college golf, maybe the last round of a tree day Champions event, an occasional Invitational event with no cut........But follow an entire league of that while logging on to YOUTUBE.  I think not! My friends feel the same way.......

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27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

This is the largest golf community online by a huge margin.  It’s pretty overwhelming pro pga tour here and is so minus any coercion from the management.  In fact they’ve moderated the topics with LIV specifically so that the few LIV fans can have a voice. And so that those topics don’t go out of hand.  If it were majority LIV support then why would they need moderation ? The small minority would be drowned out. Right ? 
 

sure it’s not empirical proof.  But it is a great indicator. Especially when you consider that it’s unbiased data compared to what Greg said. You can’t really take one side of the others word on obscure stats.  Of course Greg will pad the numbers. He had to coax the $ somehow.   
 

then we have to define “ golf fan”.    Fans of the pro game that we’ve had for a century now aren’t for changing it to something shorter and easier.  The people who are for that aren’t really pro golf fans …. They’re casual fans of a game (at best)  that might resemble golf. 
 

team formats ? Shotgun starts and no cut is just a different thing.  I’m all for someone liking that.  But if it’s to become the rule vs the exception , we need to find a new name for it. 

Agreed.......from this day forward we should look for another name for the LIV exhibition Series.......because it's not golf. Having its own name is quite deserving.

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44 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

LIV Series Exhibition golf is a three-day 54-hole event with a college golf format. It has no way in which to qualify, nor do it supply world ranking points due to the weak fields. Maybe one day it might even get a television provider and move up from Youtube. I would be surprised if team golf supplant 72-hole stroke play......

That is not why it doesn't have owgr points.

 

There are plenty of other 54 hole events with weaker fields that do issue points.

 

Do some research on the tours that also receive points.

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2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

That is not why it doesn't have owgr points.

 

There are plenty of other 54 hole events with weaker fields that do issue points.

 

Do some research on the tours that also receive points.

Weak fields are one of the reasons and its college format is another for no world ranking points......I don't think that any amount of nit picking will make it legit.

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I’m fairly sure mr Moneyhsn is not too concerned about event nr1 in London. But as a starter event it was not poorly organised. And he knows very well what money can buy. Like the pga decimated the European tour, that could be well done to the pga tour. And they know it. That is why they react like they do. 
 

and which player cares about owgr points if all the good players are not in that tour. They create their own points system. Ultimately the public wants to see the best players compete. And liv showed pretty good success in convincing players to join. For them the only way is up from here, I’m sure they consider the start a moderate success. More than I expected. 

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I’m fairly sure mr Moneyhsn is not too concerned about event nr1 in London. But as a starter event it was not poorly organised. And he knows very well what money can buy. Like the pga decimated the European tour, that could be well done to the pga tour. And they know it. That is why they react like they do. 
 

and which player cares about owgr points if all the good players are not in that tour. They create their own points system. Ultimately the public wants to see the best players compete. And liv showed pretty good success in convincing players to join. For them the only way is up from here, I’m sure they consider the start a moderate success. More than I expected. 

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Thanks I know the format.  I've been following along as much as anyone has.

 

Well so it comes down to everyone's individual sample size anecdotal evidence.  I have no doubt the golfwrx community tilts heavily in favour of the PGA tour.  I will say I haven't talked to anyone that is in favour of the CURRENT LIV format.  With tweaks however I know plenty of people, some not as hardcore as those of us here, that would be interested in a diff format, more televised golf and less commercials, a faster pace, and being able to see everyone on the course at once.  No one I talked to favours having no cut.  I'd tend to agree its more of an exhibition or series at this point but cmon they've held one event .. it will evolve. I understand its hard to let go of something that has been the gold standard for so long.  But maybe the PGA needs a little competition to evolve with the times.

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The PGA Tour is a cartel, an association designed to maintain and maximize the price paid for the services provided by its members.  It worked remarkably well to achieve that goal.  It evolved into a self-perpetuating meritocracy that allowed its current members to prosper greatly while at least making some effort to insure the same benefits for future pros.  The system created a market for endorsements that was immensely lucrative.  

 

The essence of a cartel is a system of restrictions on when, where, and for how much members may provide their services.   This is not hypocrisy, it’s the essential nature of the arrangement.  In theory, the providers benefit and consumers suffer, although in this case consumer loss would seem to be slight if at all perceptible.

 

The problem with cartels is that unless supported by government (yeah, you, AMA) they tend to fall apart when some members deem it in their interest to flout the system.  The collective good (of the rarified group of people making a living giving exhibition golf matches called the PGATour now and in the future) falls victim to the narrow self-interest of the few.

 

The hypocrisy lies with those who benefited from the system for decades, made tens of millions of dollars, apparently could not hold onto them, and now with unbelievably gall calls the system greedy.

 

Now that the cartel is in danger, the expected effect of its demise would be for the (former) members with the most name recognition (media value) to start to absorb money that used to be distributed to members.  In the end, however, the media value of individual players in competing leagues will be smaller than that of members of a single league who could plausibly claim to be the absolute best in the world.  Endorsement values could take a dive.

 

The losers will be rank and file members of the Tour, including those who would have benefited from the system in the future.

 

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21 minutes ago, Oldboy said:

Thanks I know the format.  I've been following along as much as anyone has.

 

Well so it comes down to everyone's individual sample size anecdotal evidence.  I have no doubt the golfwrx community tilts heavily in favour of the PGA tour.  I will say I haven't talked to anyone that is in favour of the CURRENT LIV format.  With tweaks however I know plenty of people, some not as hardcore as those of us here, that would be interested in a diff format, more televised golf and less commercials, a faster pace, and being able to see everyone on the course at once.  No one I talked to favours having no cut.  I'd tend to agree its more of an exhibition or series at this point but cmon they've held one event .. it will evolve. I understand its hard to let go of something that has been the gold standard for so long.  But maybe the PGA needs a little competition to evolve with the times.

And that is a more balanced take than many I’ve read who like the LIV idea.  
 

 

 

im not opposed to competition.  What I am opposed to is the tricks they’ll use to gain favor.  They’re not taking them on head to head.
 

 Like you said. The format will evolve.  They’ll use this one to attract the casual fan. Once they have them as their loud fan base online , they’ll look like they have more than they do.  They offer free viewing.  No commercials etc.  all up until they capture all of the control.  Then.  It will go to same exact thing we have now as far as tv viewing.  3 shots then a commercial.  Huge TV deals , and tightened control on the players , since they will now have no other option.  All overseas from the core US fan.   
 

and then the shotgun start will have to go.  Afterall. You can’t have a real competition and have players finish on different holes. Some holes are harder than others. Some harder depending on when you face them in the rounds order. Etc. These inequities will show up and the hard core fan will cry fowl loudly.   We know this. They do it weekly as it is. 
 

this is a Trojan horse scenario.  It’s easy to see.

 

Side thought.  has anyone stopped to ask why this is only 54 holes ?  

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13 hours ago, grm24 said:

Shilgy..... Horschel and a few other players on the PGA Tour are members of both the PGA and DP tours concurrently. If a player is a member of both tours does a PGA Tour player still need a release to play a DP Tour event? Honest question. IIRC they do have to declare what their primary tour is. Horschel finished 2nd last year on the DP Tour and Collin Morikawa was first on their Race To Dubai.

Not sure on your question but I do believe they need to declare primary tour.  IIRC they both added an event or two late in the season to be eligible for the Race money.

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On 6/24/2022 at 8:56 AM, Dave230 said:

 

 

LIV Tour is going directly up against the PGA Tour in their territory, that's the difference.

Being a free market capitalist, I believe the competition would force both to produce a better product.  The PGA needs to be subject to the Sherman Act for the manner in which it is attempting to monopolize and restrict the manner in which players can market themselves.

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6 hours ago, oikos1 said:

"provide industry-leading coverage of PGA Tour equipment"

 

Are you suggesting GolfWRX is providing biased coverage to favor the PGA Tour in terms of equipment reviews or any other related PGA Tour issues?  To use a popular phrase around here, there is a difference between doing business with and being a pawn of.  Yeah, I think that's how that one goes.

 

I'm not sure we would be talking about the LIV or PGA Tour/World Tour hypocrisy if that were the case.

I'm not suggesting anything. All I did was provide you a link to the story.

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2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Weak fields are one of the reasons and its college format is another for no world ranking points......I don't think that any amount of nit picking will make it legit.

 

Explain why the format has anything to do with it?  It is 54 hole stroke play.  The team portion of it has no bearing on any of it.  There are other 54 hole events that receive OWGR points.

 

What is the strength of field of the last Sunshine Tour event?

 

This isn't nit-picking, this is you being factually incorrect and being called on it.

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44 minutes ago, Esox said:

Being a free market capitalist, I believe the competition would force both to produce a better product.  The PGA needs to be subject to the Sherman Act for the manner in which it is attempting to monopolize and restrict the manner in which players can market themselves.

Been tried and failed already.

https://www.conductdetrimental.com/post/can-the-pga-tour-outdrive-legal-challenges-if-they-ban-players-who-defect-to-the-super-golf-league

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3 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

I wanted to see Li get it done after going into the final round with the lead......

Isn’t Li considered all blood money?

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1 hour ago, Esox said:

Being a free market capitalist, I believe the competition would force both to produce a better product.  The PGA needs to be subject to the Sherman Act for the manner in which it is attempting to monopolize and restrict the manner in which players can market themselves.

But wouldn’t the Sherman act also be against a true free market ?  I mean it is a anti trust rule designed to break up the results of free market monopolies.  
 

I’m also for a free market. But I’ve always also had issue with hypocritical manipulations of that market to control someone from cornering their market.  That’s not free.  
 

it just depends on how finite you want to go with the term market.  If the players are in deed free agents to do as they please. Then let them do so.  The tour is then also free to prohibit them from returning to their market.  Why ? Because you can’t both be free of all overlord ties and enjoy that overlords umbrella of coverage.  Which includes guaranteed playing space , in the form  of membership and exemption to events.  Not when outsiders have to qualify their way in. 
 

Your argument believes that the double standard is ok.  It’s not.  Players  are free. But that means completely relieving themselves of their perks too.  

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32 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Explain why the format has anything to do with it?  It is 54 hole stroke play.  The team portion of it has no bearing on any of it.  There are other 54 hole events that receive OWGR points.

 

What is the strength of field of the last Sunshine Tour event?

 

This isn't nit-picking, this is you being factually incorrect and being called on it.

Per the OWGR I read earlier this week yes…54 hole events can get points.  At a reduced rate.  IIRC it was 50% or maybe a bit less.

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1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Explain why the format has anything to do with it?  It is 54 hole stroke play.  The team portion of it has no bearing on any of it.  There are other 54 hole events that receive OWGR points.

 

What is the strength of field of the last Sunshine Tour event?

 

This isn't nit-picking, this is you being factually incorrect and being called on it.

An eight series exhibition tournament with no cut and no way to qualify will never get world ranking points no matter how much you wish it to be so. 

I'll leave it to you to figure out the average ranking of the players that should rival a D1 college program....

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16 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

An eight series exhibition tournament with no cut and no way to qualify will never get world ranking points no matter how much you wish it to be so. 

I'll leave it to you to figure out the average ranking of the players that should rival a D1 college program....

I suppose they could go to the extreme and say any player suspended by a tour will have his owgr points paused for the duration.  So they would have essentially zero points.  Then the LIV would essentially be my Saturday game….sure we’ll  give you ranking points but without having anyone in your field with any points their will be no points to distribute. 🫢

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      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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