Should out of bounds rule be changed?

[alittleoverpar]

IMO if you hit it off the course, it's stroke and distance.  If you're in doubt about whether your shot is in bounds or not, just declare and hit a provisional.  In that case, if it is out, you have a ball to play without having to go back to the tee.  It's a rule of golf, just like any other.

[Shilgy]

Geez guys, just pretend the USGA/R&A are your mother.

 

You: Why is it two strokes? That’s not fair. Waaaah!

Mom/rules: Because I said so!  Now eat your peas!🤣

 

Every game has rules but it sure seems that the casual players have an issue with almost every golf rule there is-or even those rules that are not like no relief from divot holes.  They will give all sorts of reason why they don’t like a rule but the bottom line it’s just because it adds a stroke or two to their score.

 

My response is embrace the rules!  Sometimes it will save you strokes to know and properly use the rules as well.
 

 Guessing they won’t complain about those rules.

[alittleoverpar]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Geez guys, just pretend the USGA/R&A are your mother.

 

You: Why is it two strokes? That’s not fair. Waaaah!

Mom/rules: Because I said so!  Now eat your peas!🤣

 

Every game has rules but it sure seems that the casual players have an issue with almost every golf rule there is-or even those rules that are not like no relief from divot holes.  They will give all sorts of reason why they don’t like a rule but the bottom line it’s just because it adds a stroke or two to their score.

 

My response is embrace the rules!  Sometimes it will save you strokes to know and properly use the rules as well.
 

 Guessing they won’t complain about those rules.

Love it!  🤣🤣

[Newby]

20 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Wasn't that for one year, 60 years ago? I know it's been stroke and distance since I started around '69-'70.  

http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html

[jholz]

I asked the question of why OB is more penal than "hazards" on the Rules thread a few years back. The responses were both prompt and entirely reasonable. I learned something on WRX that day!

 

Simply put, a ball OB is worse than a ball in a hazard. As such, OB warrants a stiffer penalty. 

 

The logic being, of course, that a stiffer penalty will provide a greater impact on player decision making, strategy, etc. Over time, this will reduce the number of balls going OB - theoretically.

 

But, if you don't know the rule, or choose not to follow it, then the impact on your course strategy will be minimal. At the same time, you will be missing out on some of the intricacies of the game.

 

OB and hazards are certainly there to trip you up - but in a weird way they also show you what the course designer had in mind. Sometimes, thinking about a hole in that way - particularly those holes that consistently trip you up - can show you a new way to play them. 

[2bGood]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:37 AM, Augster said:

I’m hoping E5 is adopted more and more. When it came out, we only used it for casual play. This year, it is available for all events. It saves a massive amount of time on surprise lost balls and time on OB balls the player didn’t think was OB.  
 

Also, if the committee wanted the white stakes to be red stakes, they could put out red stakes. Moreover, they could put out red stakes and make everything beyond the stakes an NPZ-PA so players don’t have the option to play from homeowners back yards. 
 

 

 

This would be my take too.The current rules actually allow for OB to be marked as red penalty NPZ areas. Courses/Tournament/Committee etc have this option.  E5 is also a local rule option. If stroke and distance is the only option for a ball hit OB in an event it is either intentional or ignorance on the part of the committee. 

 

To be honest I think it is more often ignorance on the committee's part of what the options actually are. 

 

At our course we play OB with stroke and distance the only option in competition. We are 100 year old course where OB is part of the architectural challenge of the course. 

[joeburger]

It's what makes golf hard. They would put red stakes if they wanted it to be hazard throughout.

[alittleoverpar]

6 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

This would be my take too.The current rules actually allow for OB to be marked as red penalty NPZ areas. Courses/Tournament/Committee etc have this option.  E5 is also a local rule option. If stroke and distance is the only option for a ball hit OB in an event it is either intentional or ignorance on the part of the committee. 

 

To be honest I think it is more often ignorance on the committee's part of what the options actually are. 

 

At our course we play OB with stroke and distance the only option in competition. We are 100 year old course where OB is part of the architectural challenge of the course. 

One of the courses I play regularly made this change in one area.  One of the holes has an elevated green with a blind approach shot.  Behind the green used to be marked as OB.  It could be difficult sometimes to see if you flew the green and went OB since the shot was blind.  Recently, they replaced the white OB stakes with red hazard stakes.  

Edited June 27, 2022 by alittleoverpar

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

1) This would be my take too.The current rules actually allow for OB to be marked as red penalty NPZ areas. Courses/Tournament/Committee etc have this option.  E5 is also a local rule option. If stroke and distance is the only option for a ball hit OB in an event it is either intentional or ignorance on the part of the committee. 

 

2) To be honest I think it is more often ignorance on the committee's part of what the options actually are. 

 

3) At our course we play OB with stroke and distance the only option in competition. We are 100 year old course where OB is part of the architectural challenge of the course. 

 

1) There is a big difference between an OB and a PA. You are not allowed to play from OB but you are from PA. Thus a PA may actually slow play down as people may want to try to find their ball in order to play it without any penalty.

 

2) I disagree with this for a reason you mention yourself in 3). The course designer has had a plan when designing the course. Why should a committee change that plan? Personally I dislike the idea of sacrificing more and more things on the altar of pace of play. Players competing regularly do know how to play a provisional and when. It is not that difficult.

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, alittleoverpar said:

One of the courses I play regularly made this change in one area.  One of the holes has an elevated green with a blind approach shot.  Behind the green used to be marked as OB.  It could be difficult sometimes to see if you flew the green and went OB since the shot was blind.  Recently, they replaced the white OB stakes with red hazard stakes.  

 

Why was it marked OB originally? Margin of the property?

 

[alittleoverpar]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why was it marked OB originally? Margin of the property?

 

It isn't a property margin.  Along the right side of the hole is a property margin and is still marked OB.  I'm not sure why they originally marked OB at a right angle to the property line behind the green.  It is heavily wooded so maybe the thought was they didn't want people searching for golf balls???  

[jordan2240]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I doubt anybody would use the S&D option if you would be lying 2 after the drop... or what do you think?

In most instances, there would likely be an opportunity to take a drop, but there are plenty of instances where there is no good place to drop 2 club lengths from OB, so the golfer would have to re-hit from the previous spot.  I'm sure there are other instances where re-hitting from the previous spot would be preferred as well (such as having to drop behind an outcropping of trees, for instance).   I like the idea of fewer rules vice more, but if OB is generally a safety issue and stroke-and-distance are there to more strongly encourage the golfer to stay away, then I'd reconsider my opinion.

[Mr. Bean]

26 minutes ago, alittleoverpar said:

It isn't a property margin.  Along the right side of the hole is a property margin and is still marked OB.  I'm not sure why they originally marked OB at a right angle to the property line behind the green.  It is heavily wooded so maybe the thought was they didn't want people searching for golf balls???  

 

Well, today that searching may be hindered by declaring that area a No Play Zone / Penalty Area.

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) There is a big difference between an OB and a PA. You are not allowed to play from OB but you are from PA. Thus a PA may actually slow play down as people may want to try to find their ball in order to play it without any penalty.

 

2) I disagree with this for a reason you mention yourself in 3). The course designer has had a plan when designing the course. Why should a committee change that plan? Personally I dislike the idea of sacrificing more and more things on the altar of pace of play. Players competing regularly do know how to play a provisional and when. It is not that difficult.

 

 1) I noted making it NPZ(no play zone) so you would not be allowed to play from it.

 

2) I agree. (I guess that mean's I disagree with myself?????) these day I tend lean to be generous in these issues as I know natural inclination is to be conserve in rule matters. In my mind I am thinking despite what the course architect(s) had in mind, the committee knows the caliber and type of event better and may be in a better position to determine the most appropriate way to make the course for it. Heck, when 99.9% of the courses on the planet were designed the option for marking the OB as a Red Penalty NPZ's was not available, so the architect did not choose to mark the property line with white stakes - it was there only option. 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by 2bGood

[antip]

11 hours ago, Girevik said:

The local rule is a huge step forward, but if a course has not put in action then nothing has changed.  If it became an actual rule that would be great but still don't see why the color of a line makes one bad shot so much more punitive than another.

 

I would say the same for lost ball....having to go back and re-tee because you can't find a ball in long rough, even just a few yards off the fairway, feels excessive.

Picking up on the bolded words - this misses the key feature of a golf course. The reason one line colour or one piece of rough is much more punitive is very simple - it is the precise challenge that the Committee set for that course. The player doesn't get to choose whether they want OOB or penalty areas or anything else. You are bringing the perspective of making life easier for you the player - but that is not golf. The game is a navigational challenge to the player and OOB says in big bold letters to the player THIS AREA MUST BE AVOIDED ON THIS HOLE, PUT YOUR BALL HERE AND IT IS A PENALTY DO-OVER. That is precisely the Committee's role - determine how the course must be played to meet the course challenge. If they just want red penalty area as the lesser challenge for particular ground then that is how they make it. 

[RCGA]

I don't have a problem with real out-of-bounds (outside the property). 

 

What I can't stand is the lost-ball rule. Ridiculously penalizing, maybe the most unfair rule in golf.

[davep043]

27 minutes ago, RCGA said:

What I can't stand is the lost-ball rule. Ridiculously penalizing, maybe the most unfair rule in golf.

One of the basic principles of golf is to play your ball from the tee into the hole.  If you can't find your ball, if you don't know where it is, how can you follow that principle.  The last place where you KNOW the ball was is the spot you played your lost shot.  So go back to that spot and play on.  And add a stroke, because you've broken the continuity of play.  

[Mr. Bean]

It sure would do a lot of good for many people to read Tuft's book, especially for those who say a single Rule is unfair.

[RCGA]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

One of the basic principles of golf is to play your ball from the tee into the hole.  If you can't find your ball, if you don't know where it is, how can you follow that principle.  The last place where you KNOW the ball was is the spot you played your lost shot.  So go back to that spot and play on.  And add a stroke, because you've broken the continuity of play.  

 

Too many variables in the amateur game. Did someone pick it up (ex hitting on an adjacent fairway)? Are you searching in the wrong spot? There's no forecaddie or gallery to aid you. Pace of play considerations. We also have grounds crew that have run over balls and embedded them by mistake. 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

16 minutes ago, davep043 said:

One of the basic principles of golf is to play your ball from the tee into the hole.  If you can't find your ball, if you don't know where it is, how can you follow that principle.  The last place where you KNOW the ball was is the spot you played your lost shot.  So go back to that spot and play on.  And add a stroke, because you've broken the continuity of play.  

 

Furthermore, if there was no penalty for losing your ball you could take any risk with no negative impact. Golf is a strategy game played with skills and one skill is to know when to take a risk and what kind of risk.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, RCGA said:

 

Too many variables in the amateur game. Did someone pick it up (ex hitting on an adjacent fairway)? Are you searching in the wrong spot? There's no forecaddie or gallery to aid you. Pace of play considerations. We also have grounds crew that have run over balls and embedded them by mistake. 

 

 

 

Use the fairway. Your own.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

Too many variables in the amateur game. Did someone pick it up (ex hitting on an adjacent fairway)? Are you searching in the wrong spot? There's no forecaddie or gallery to aid you. Pace of play considerations. We also have grounds crew that have run over balls and embedded them by mistake. 

 

 

 

I sure cannot understand this kind of whining. If your skills aren't good enough to drive your ball onto the fairway use a shorter club. In the long run your scores will most likely be better.

 

Besides, I have understood that most golfers in the US have no handicap index so what keeps you from dropping another ball wherever you want if you cannot find your original? Stop whining and start enjoying!

[Girevik]

58 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Furthermore, if there was no penalty for losing your ball you could take any risk with no negative impact. Golf is a strategy game played with skills and one skill is to know when to take a risk and what kind of risk.

Who said anything for no penalty?  Treat it as if it's lost in a hazard.  Drop as closely as possible to the location you believe it to be and take one stroke.  Maybe even 2.  But walking back to the tee seems harsh when the rough can be so thick right next to the fairway that you can't see the ball from 5 yards away (it's that way here in the spring).

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Girevik said:

Who said anything for no penalty?  Treat it as if it's lost in a hazard.  Drop as closely as possible to the location you believe it to be and take one stroke.  Maybe even 2.  But walking back to the tee seems harsh when the rough can be so thick right next to the fairway that you can't see the ball from 5 yards away (it's that way here in the spring).

 

That would be Local Rule E-5 so what is the problem? And you may always hit a provisional ball if you believe your ball may be lost outside a Penalty Area.

 

Also you seem to have missed the concept of a Penalty Area. It is an area from which you may play your ball with no penalty if you can find it. However, those PAs are often areas where a ball cannot be found or played from. Thus you have an option of coming out of them with 1 PS. When you lose your ball you do not have that option as you have no means of playing your ball. It is extremely analogous with Out of Bounds.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Girevik]

57 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I sure cannot understand this kind of whining. If your skills aren't good enough to drive your ball onto the fairway use a shorter club. In the long run your scores will most likely be better.

 

Besides, I have understood that most golfers in the US have no handicap index so what keeps you from dropping another ball wherever you want if you cannot find your original? Stop whining and start enjoying!

I don't hear "whining", I hear discussing the rules.  Why the need for name calling? 

 

And what does a handicap have to do with it (although I'm willing to bet most of the the folks involved in this conversation have one)?  Can't someone still want to play by the rules even if they don't keep a handicap?  Maybe they're in a league that keeps an independent handicap so don't need an "official" one, or just play with a group of people they want to keep score with.

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, Girevik said:

I don't hear "whining", I hear discussing the rules.  Why the need for name calling? 

 

And what does a handicap have to do with it (although I'm willing to bet most of the the folks involved in this conversation have one)?  Can't someone still want to play by the rules even if they don't keep a handicap?  Maybe they're in a league that keeps an independent handicap so don't need an "official" one, or just play with a group of people they want to keep score with.

 

I read whining as I did not find any discussion but accusations of Rules being too difficult for amateurs. In my eyes that is whining.

 

But you are right, one may always play by the Rules but then one needs to know them instead of wishing there were fewer of them.

 

I wish there was another forum where one could post complaints of too many Rules, Rules are stupid or Rules are too difficult. Then we could use this forum for discussing the essence of the Rules and solve cases coming up by using the Rules that exist.

[Girevik]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

That would be Local Rule E-5 so what is the problem? And you may always hit a provisional ball if you believe your ball may be lost outside a Penalty Area.

Yes, there is a local rule.  At least part of this discussion is whether it should become an "official rule". 

 

Why would I think my ball may be lost if I'm sure it's in the rough within 10 yards of the fairway?  I'm not talking knee high stuff....just long, thick grass where you can't see a ball that's settled into it unless you're practically standing on it.  Based on that I'd have to hit a provisional every time I didn't hit the fairway.  We had a guy in league last year have to make the drive of shame back the to the tee because he couldn't find a ball that everyone in his group saw as landing just a few yards into the rough but they couldn't find it, which held everyone up (the league has not adopted the local rule).  My partner just abandoned a hole earlier this year for the same reason.  A ball that everyone saw in an area but just got eaten up by grass that seems to grow an inch and a half a day in the spring.

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, Girevik said:

Yes, there is a local rule.  At least part of this discussion is whether it should become an "official rule". 

 

Why would I think my ball may be lost if I'm sure it's in the rough within 10 yards of the fairway?  I'm not talking knee high stuff....just long, thick grass where you can't see a ball that's settled into it unless you're practically standing on it.  Based on that I'd have to hit a provisional every time I didn't hit the fairway.  We had a guy in league last year have to make the drive of shame back the to the tee because he couldn't find a ball that everyone in his group saw as landing just a few yards into the rough but they couldn't find it, which held everyone up (the league has not adopted the local rule).  My partner just abandoned a hole earlier this year for the same reason.  A ball that everyone saw in an area but just got eaten up by grass that seems to grow an inch and a half a day in the spring.

 

I can understand that happening on the first hole on a course none of the group have ever played. But I cannot understand how a person who sees or knows by experience the rough by the fairway being so thick that you may lose your ball 5 yds away has not enough brain to hit a provisional once their ball enters the rough. That person sure deserves to walk back to the tee, IMHO.

[Girevik]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I read whining as I did not find any discussion but accusations of Rules being too difficult for amateurs. In my eyes that is whining.

 

But you are right, one may always play by the Rules but then one needs to know them instead of wishing there were fewer of them.

 

I wish there was another forum where one could post complaints of too many Rules, Rules are stupid or Rules are too difficult. Then we could use this forum for discussing the essence of the Rules and solve cases coming up by using the Rules that exist.

Some people have said they don't like the rule and fell is should be different, others have replied with why they think the rules are fine.  That sounds like a discussion to me.

 

There are plenty of topics in this same forum and the existing rule and how to apply them, along with a relative few sating they feel should be different.  No one is obligated to participate in a thread they don't see being of any value.

[Girevik]

Just now, Mr. Bean said:

 

I can understand that happening on the first hole on a course none of the group have ever played. But I cannot understand how a person who sees or knows by experience the rough by the fairway being so thick that you may lose your ball 5 yds away has not enough brain to hit a provisional once their ball enters the rough. That person sure deserves to walk back to the tee, IMHO.

With 4 people looking you can find the ball 95% of the time.  I would disagree that that 5% chance warrants a provisional every time, but I also miss a lot more fairways than I hit so that would require to to hit a lot of provisionals.  I'll have to continue to take my chances when in league and don't have the local rule to fall back on.