Help?!?!

[Ballcoach35]

Good morning! Grabbed a video this weekend while playing. Shot a 43 on the front and was hitting a baby fade. Got to the back and it turned into a slice and I couldn’t get the club face closed, or so it seemed. Shot a 55 on the back and just lost it all with my driver. 
 

This particular shot was 105 yards and it baby faded about 5 yards from the cup.

 

My main swing thoughts have been to stay on my instep in the back swing and to get on my left heel quickly once I hit the top.

[golfarb1]

 

Too little pelvic rotation going back . You need to let your rear knee straighten a little  going back . 
Shaft is too steep at the end of transition ( 9:00 on the downswing 

During transition You  need to start your right elbow moving both down and towards the target line instead of just down.

Another way of thinking of this movement is to move your right elbow closer to your left elbow during transition 

 

[Ballcoach35]

Thanks!

 

Could you provide quality drill or two?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ballcoach35

[Jxc123]

Don’t agree that you need more hip rotation in your backswing. Backswing is solid. You have good depth with your hands at the top. If you want to get shallower you can certainly get to a more laid off position in your backswing. But agree that the main issue is you fail to shallow the club in the downswing. A lot of info out there on how to get more shallow from the top. Some of it might click for you some of it might not. For me, what flipped the switch was realizing that my swing path - the direction my upper body should be swinging the club - should not be parallel with my foot line. Instead it should be pointing out to the right. Your swing thought of getting to your left heel is contributing to you spinning out and not giving yourself a chance to get shallow. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

Don’t know how you shot 55 with that swing.  Very nice! 

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Don’t know how you shot 55 with that swing.  Very nice! 

His transition is severely steep, which you can get away with sometimes with a wedge but these lines won't hold up at all with the longer clubs:



@Ballcoach35 Generally speaking your problems are going to be coming from managing a club that is heading straight towards the ground about a foot inside and behind the ball on the way down, something you can bail out of by throwing away your angles and casting the club with a wedge but likely becomes increasingly difficult and erratic with longer clubs. If good instruction is available in your area I would look for someone that can help you get on plane better at the top of your backswing. Learning to shallow isn't the answer here because you're already too steep and across the line at the top, making the correct "shallowing" move a pretty big reroute/manipulation. It also looks like you're shifting laterally an awful lot, but we'd need a face on view to confirm that. If you have any more angles and/or longer club videos we could go further there.

[Ballcoach35]

9 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Don’t know how you shot 55 with that swing.  Very nice! 

Thank you! 

[Ballcoach35]

4 hours ago, Valtiel said:

His transition is severely steep, which you can get away with sometimes with a wedge but these lines won't hold up at all with the longer clubs:



@Ballcoach35 Generally speaking your problems are going to be coming from managing a club that is heading straight towards the ground about a foot inside and behind the ball on the way down, something you can bail out of by throwing away your angles and casting the club with a wedge but likely becomes increasingly difficult and erratic with longer clubs. If good instruction is available in your area I would look for someone that can help you get on plane better at the top of your backswing. Learning to shallow isn't the answer here because you're already too steep and across the line at the top, making the correct "shallowing" move a pretty big reroute/manipulation. It also looks like you're shifting laterally an awful lot, but we'd need a face on view to confirm that. If you have any more angles and/or longer club videos we could go further there.

Thank you for putting legit time into watching and providing such detailed feedback. Your detail is much more helpful than providing a list of problems with my swing.
 

I see the same thing when I watch and review my swing but I’m far from an expert and finding a quality drill or swing thought is difficult. I guess finding the root cause of this problem is my next step.

 

I used to sway a lot in the backswing and then had to catch up. The movement of my body has improved dramatically but still have plenty of room for improvement. Surprisingly, I’m hitting as well as I ever have with my longer clubs and I was on track for a PR until the 13th hole and I couldn’t find a fairway or green the rest of the way. Missing waaay right or waaay left.
 

I will get you a front view with a driver and a 6 iron and post it here. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ballcoach35

[golfarb1]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:00 AM, Ballcoach35 said:

Thanks!

 

Could you provide quality drill or two?

At setup you first need to have less weight back on your heels by sticking your butt out less . Then  you need to lose some of the brace of the right knee going back . This will do two things . It will help angle your lead arm greater than it is currently and will allow your hands to move deeper. Second it will result in more of a shoulder turn instead of just lifting your arms in the last half of the backswing . Both of these will encourage a less steep position going back 

Drill-position yourself so that at the top your clubhead is about 2 or 3 inches from a wall . Then during your transition touch the wall with your club head and keep in on wall for about 1 foot 

Edited June 28, 2022 by golfarb1

[Ballcoach35]

2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

At setup you first need to have less weight back on your heels by sticking your butt out less . Then  you need to lose some of the brace of the right knee going back . This will do two things . It will help angle your lead arm greater than it is currently and will allow your hands to move deeper. Second it will result in more of a shoulder turn instead of just lifting your arms in the last half of the backswing . Both of these will encourage a less steep position going back 

Drill-position yourself so that at the top your clubhead is about 2 or 3 inches from a wall . Then during your transition touch the wall with your club head and keep in on wall for about 1 foot 

Hey thanks! Really enjoyed reading this explanation, it makes sense. I m going to upload a few more videos and then I’ll really work on my setup and see what happens.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

On 6/28/2022 at 4:26 AM, Valtiel said:

His transition is severely steep, which you can get away with sometimes with a wedge but these lines won't hold up at all with the longer clubs:


 

Well, that just shows why I'm not qualified to give anyone advice, and never really do.  His tempo is something I wish I had. 

 

Good explaination and compariosn videos by the way. 

[Ballcoach35]

2 minutes ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Well, that just shows why I'm not qualified to give anyone advice, and never really do.  His tempo is something I wish I had. 

 

Good explaination and compariosn videos by the way. 

I’ve had several people tel me something like that about my tempo. 
 

what is the problem with yours? 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

15 minutes ago, Ballcoach35 said:

I’ve had several people tel me something like that about my tempo. 
 

what is the problem with yours? 

It's a very herky/jerky.   Kind of smooth going back, but gets way to fast in the transistion tothe down swing and is hit or miss whether ever get though to my left side.   I just started workign with an instructor so we are working on it.

 

In other words, I'm more of a "hitter" vs "swinger"

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Carolina Golfer 2

[Ballcoach35]

9 minutes ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

It's a very herky/jerky.   Kind of smooth going back, but gets way to fast in the transistion tothe down swing and is hit or miss whether ever get though to my left side.   I just started workign with an instructor so we are working on it.

 

In other words, I'm more of a "hitter" vs "swinger"

 

 

Want to share a video? I’d like to see it.

 

Good luck…I hope you get what you want out of it.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

57 minutes ago, Ballcoach35 said:

Want to share a video? I’d like to see it.

 

Good luck…I hope you get what you want out of it.

 @Ballcoach35 Well no one can be more critical of it than I am.  Ha. So here it is. 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Carolina Golfer 2

[Valtiel]

13 hours ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

Well, that just shows why I'm not qualified to give anyone advice, and never really do.  His tempo is something I wish I had. 

 

Good explaination and compariosn videos by the way. 

Tempo can be deceptive, as can shorter clubs from only one angle. This sort of steepness would likely result in a face on view showing very little shaft lean and lots of flipping/scooping, something that won't produce as obviously damaging results with a wedge but starts creating more and more problems the longer the club gets. 

@Ballcoach35 You're welcome, and what you mentioned about success with longer clubs and heading towards a PR is one of the insidious things about swing issues. The process of managing an overly steep club path in the downswing is a dice roll, and you can "get lucky" so to speak on the right day and make a bunch of good rolls in a row, leading you to believe that you're onto something, only for probability to bite you on the back nine and torpedo your round. If the overall goal of the golf swing is to get the club to the back of the ball as consistently and/our as neutrally as possible then the more out of position the club is, the more dice rolls you have to make to hopefully correct your "mistakes". When the club is coming down extremely steeply you have to either lose your posture (stand up/early extend), dump all your angles (flip/cast), stall your rotation, or some combination of all three. What you end up employing is usually a pretty unconscious decision your brain makes in the 1/4 of a second you have in the downswing and each one is its own little dice roll. The longer the club, the longer the swing, the more potential to get out of position, and the greater the need to correct excess steepness. When those dice rolls start coming up snake eyes you start losing face control and low point control, hence the ball going everywhere. 

When it comes to the club coming down, no matter how you swing it, you have to get into the ballpark plane wise. Lets look at the top 8 guys in the world right now:



Obviously there is a wide range of swings/styles with some variation, but everyone is in/around the same general area. Easier said then done of course, but however you choose to swing the club, this is one of those immutable fundamentals to playing consistently good golf. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Valtiel

[Ballcoach35]

On 6/29/2022 at 11:42 PM, Valtiel said:

Tempo can be deceptive, as can shorter clubs from only one angle. This sort of steepness would likely result in a face on view showing very little shaft lean and lots of flipping/scooping, something that won't produce as obviously damaging results with a wedge but starts creating more and more problems the longer the club gets. 

@Ballcoach35 You're welcome, and what you mentioned about success with longer clubs and heading towards a PR is one of the insidious things about swing issues. The process of managing an overly steep club path in the downswing is a dice roll, and you can "get lucky" so to speak on the right day and make a bunch of good rolls in a row, leading you to believe that you're onto something, only for probability to bite you on the back nine and torpedo your round. If the overall goal of the golf swing is to get the club to the back of the ball as consistently and/our as neutrally as possible then the more out of position the club is, the more dice rolls you have to make to hopefully correct your "mistakes". When the club is coming down extremely steeply you have to either lose your posture (stand up/early extend), dump all your angles (flip/cast), stall your rotation, or some combination of all three. What you end up employing is usually a pretty unconscious decision your brain makes in the 1/4 of a second you have in the downswing and each one is its own little dice roll. The longer the club, the longer the swing, the more potential to get out of position, and the greater the need to correct excess steepness. When those dice rolls start coming up snake eyes you start losing face control and low point control, hence the ball going everywhere. 

When it comes to the club coming down, no matter how you swing it, you have to get into the ballpark plane wise. Lets look at the top 8 guys in the world right now:



Obviously there is a wide range of swings/styles with some variation, but everyone is in/around the same general area. Easier said then done of course, but however you choose to swing the club, this is one of those immutable fundamentals to playing consistently good golf. 

@ValtielHere are two videos I shot just a minute ago with my 5-Wood. I’ve got a bad blister on my heel and can’t walk with real shoes so playing is out of the question. Only thing I’ve changed from here and the original is that my setup is further from where the ball would be and I’ve got my weight much more on my toes/balls of my feet. 
 

       

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ballcoach35

[Ballcoach35]

On 6/29/2022 at 10:46 AM, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

 @Ballcoach35 Well no one can be more critical of it than I am.  Ha. So here it is. 

 

Nice! 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

3 hours ago, Ballcoach35 said:

Nice! 

Ha. You’re too nice.  But I did have a hole  in one Thursday (not with driver😂) so for at least one swing things worked! 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

3 hours ago, Ballcoach35 said:

@ValtielHere are two videos I show just a minute ago with my 5-Wood. I’ve got a bad blister on my heel and can’t walk with real shoes so playing is out of the question. All thing I’ve changed from here and the original is that my setup is further from where the ball would be and I’ve got my weight much more on my does/balls of my feet. 
 

 

       

 

 

I know Valtiel is giving a qualified critique.  
 

But I’m envious of your move and flexibility! 

[Ballcoach35]

1 hour ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

I know Valtiel is giving a qualified critique.  
 

But I’m envious of your move and flexibility! 

Thank you. I’m envious of your hole in one 🙂

 

seriously, it’s all just a work in progress. I don’t feel like we’ll ever be truly happy with where we are as golfers.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

23 hours ago, Ballcoach35 said:

Thank you. I’m envious of your hole in one 🙂

 

seriously, it’s all just a work in progress. I don’t feel like we’ll ever be truly happy with where we are as golfers.

That is so true.   I’m a 16 with a goal to get to 12.  Once I get there. I know I’ll want to get to below 10.   I shot to my handicap on the HiO round but was disappointed it wasn’t my lowest round of the year.   So yes, you are spot on.  We’re never quite satisfied with where we are. 

[YouDaHamHider]

Hi OP. I've been working on getting into a more shallow position with my swing. First swing video was me 5 months ago. 2nd video was taken recently. I've changed quite a bit and if anything I've overdone it a little as I'm now coming a bit too much from the inside. However, the swing change is pronounced and hopefully encourages you that changed can happen. 

 

For me it was working on Monte's arm loop drill coupled with the feeling of more lead arm rotation in the backswing. 

[YouDaHamHider]

Just now, YouDaHamHider said:

Hi OP. I've been working on getting into a more shallow position with my swing. First swing video was me 5 months ago. 2nd video was taken recently. I've changed quite a bit and if anything I've overdone it a little as I'm now coming a bit too much from the inside. However, the swing change is pronounced and hopefully encourages you that changed can happen. 

 

For me it was working on Monte's arm loop drill coupled with the feeling of more lead arm rotation in the backswing. 

Recent swing 

[Valtiel]

On 7/3/2022 at 1:09 PM, Ballcoach35 said:

@ValtielHere are two videos I shot just a minute ago with my 5-Wood. I’ve got a bad blister on my heel and can’t walk with real shoes so playing is out of the question. Only thing I’ve changed from here and the original is that my setup is further from where the ball would be and I’ve got my weight much more on my toes/balls of my feet. 
 

 

     

 

Thanks for the follow vids, not quite what I expected but definitely some things to highlight. Given that you aren't actually hitting a ball i'd take this with a caveat because we often swing differently in practice so i'd really prefer to see actual hitting conditions. However the last couple of folks that I have that caveat and similar issues in both swings so i'll proceed.



Right out of the gate your posture is too bent over/leaning forward. I'm going to continue with the Cam Smith comparison as a player with a similar "across the line" move at the top. His shoulders lined up right in front of his toes is a pretty standard position (this can vary a bit) but yours way off the front of your toes is a bit too much. Your takeaway however is pretty textbook. Hands working straight back, big width, nice one piece takeaway. Cam works a little more up and has a slightly more open clubface (yours is slightly shut) but both are within "normal" ranges. Despite being leaned too far forward you actually turn back nicely and don't lose depth or spine angle so those are two great things.



Continuing back, still pretty good. You're still on plane here, although that loose index finger and thumb is interesting. Feel thing maybe? I'd argue your left hip is maybe coming out a bit too much here and we're seeing a lot of gap between your legs, but nothing major. Cam is again going up higher/more vertical but that's not something to mimic necessarily as it's going to serve as his match up for a move later in the swing.



Here is where we see the first real problems (aside from the setup position). As you reach the top of the backswing we see two major things. One, your right wrist actually starts straightening up and *losing* extension and two, your right upper arm and shoulder start getting too deep (behind you). You had a normal amount of right wrist extension in the previous gif, but you've started losing it here which starts moving the club across the line. It feels like you've replaced that lack of extension with too much upper arm/right shoulder movement the compensate (just speculation) and this puts you in a weird place at the top. Notice with Cam how much his right wrist is extended (bent backwards) and how despite that fact that the club is slightly past parallel and across the line (the clubhead is behind his back slightly in the last frame) that his right upper arm and elbow are still connected and in front of his torso, whereas yours have flown up a bit and gotten disconnected. This is the first thing to focus on (after a setup adjustment). You want to feel your right elbow staying more connected and in front of you, and your right wrist staying folded back as you reach the top instead of standing up and straightening. We also see your hips moving slightly towards the ball as you reach the top of your swing, but i'll bet the setup adjustment will help with that, and it's not a big deal here anyway.



Your first move down from this problematic backswing position is to drop straight down, which would be a good thing if you were on or near being on plane at the top, but you weren't, so now you're pretty steep. You're rotating well with the left side though and maintaining your depth after losing a small amount previously. We can see you're starting to move towards shallowing the club to recover here, however....



...it goes pretty sideways in the next frame as you lay the club WAY down and start moving your hands extremely laterally, almost like you're trying to hit a tee ball in little league. This looks like a manufactured move either in an attempt to shallow the club, bow your left wrist, or maybe both. Your plane was pretty solid going back, got a little steep and across the line at the top, then a little steep going down followed by the drastic shift to super flat/shallow. This leads to you swinging way over the top of the plane and results in a huge wrist roll/flick through the ball. Your lower body stayed really solid however, no humping or depth loss, so kudos for that!

Again i'd like to see some actual shots, but i'd also like to hear your thoughts on what i've described here and whether this lines up with any feels or moves you have or are trying to do/not do.

[Ballcoach35]

1. Thanks for the compliment on my backswing. This is where I first started trying to correct my swing issues. Recently I’ve gotten into Dr. kwon for weight transfer and I think it’s help a lot to get and stay in sequence. I feel much more consistently overall compared to how I used to feel all over the place. As far as my setup, someone else in this thread mentioned getting the weight more on my toes so I thought I’d try it and I’ll go back to a more natural/athletic stance.

 

2. I’ve started taking my index finger and my thumb off of the club bc I felt as if my right arm was “high jacking” my swing and caused me to pull the shaft down and have the “flying elbow”. I’ve noticed how vertical the club was at the very start of the downswing so I’ve tried to use that to loosen up my right hand on the club and not allow it to be so dominant. I’ve also noticed at the top that my right wrist cups slightly and then I’m playing catch-up to get the club face closed which is why I’m bowing pretty hard at the impact area. I do not really now how to fix this issue other than to just get really comfortable bowing the crap out of the lead wrist at the top and in transition. Do you have you good drills for this?

 

3. I love the idea of keep the trail elbow in front. I think you helped something click for me and I can’t wait to get home and try it to see what it looks like. Tonight, I’ll work on my posture and try keep my elbow in front. Maybe later this week or the weekend I’ll hit the range and get you an updated video. 
 

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Ballcoach35

[Ballcoach35]

@Valtiel I’m going to post this in a couple of different posts. This post is just my wedge swings. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Ballcoach35

[Ballcoach35]

@Valtiel these are my 5 wood swings. Had some interesting results. The view from behind, I hit a cut that lands just over the red circle I drew. 

[Ballcoach35]

@Valtiel I did each of these several times. Looking forward to your thoughts. 

[Valtiel]

@Ballcoach35 Thanks for those, lots of great info here and plenty of things to comment on, including why I think those wonky shots happened. I'll put together some gifs tonight and get back to you. 👍