Counting a Wiff

[TM4me]

Was playing with my bother and his ball landed under a low hanging limb.  He attempted a swing, the club hit the limb on his backswing and he wiffed.  He asked if he had to count that and I said yes.  He challenged me later to show him in the USGA rules where that is counted as a stroke.  I have found a response on various website that state the stroke counts but not in the USGA rules can anyone point me in the right direction?

[Halebopp]

The Definition of Stroke:

 

https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions?definitionsEdition=RulesOfGolf#stroke

[naval2006]

I’ve heard beginners talking about whiffs not counting as shots lately. I don’t know whether this is something to do with the 2019 rules or something like that. 

[TM4me]

This is how the USGA website defines a stroke:

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by TM4me

[larrybud]

In the USGA rule book (emphasis mine)

Purpose of Rule: Rule 10.1 covers how to make a stroke and several acts that are prohibited in doing so. A stroke is made by fairly striking at a ball with the head of a club. The fundamental challenge is for you to direct and control the movement of the entire club by freely swinging the club without anchoring it.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=10

 

I will say, however, they need to clarify this, because it also states:

 

In making a stroke:

• The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball and must not push, scrape or scoop the ball.

Edited June 28, 2022 by larrybud

[antip]

In addition to the definition of Stroke - referred to above, here is part of an Interpretation.

 

Stroke/1 – Determining If a Stroke Was Made

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

[Mr. Bean]

48 minutes ago, larrybud said:

In the USGA rule book (emphasis mine)

Purpose of Rule: Rule 10.1 covers how to make a stroke and several acts that are prohibited in doing so. A stroke is made by fairly striking at a ball with the head of a club. The fundamental challenge is for you to direct and control the movement of the entire club by freely swinging the club without anchoring it.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=10

 

I will say, however, they need to clarify this, because it also states:

 

In making a stroke:

• The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball and must not push, scrape or scoop the ball.

 

What is there to clarify?

[TM4me]

1 hour ago, antip said:

In addition to the definition of Stroke - referred to above, here is part of an Interpretation.

 

Stroke/1 – Determining If a Stroke Was Made

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

 

Where did you find this?

[Colin L]

17 minutes ago, TM4me said:

 

Where did you find this?

It is part of the Definition of a stroke.   If you read all of the Definition including the Interpretation mentioned, you'll get a clearer understanding.

https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions#definition-S

[Girevik]

This part of the definition of a stroke would fit the bill:

 

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

[larrybud]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What is there to clarify?

 

The part that says 

 

"The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball"

 

That implies that contact must be made.

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

Keyword, IMO, "Intent"

[larrybud]

4 hours ago, Girevik said:

This part of the definition of a stroke would fit the bill:

 

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

 

Another example of needing clarification. What if the clubhead is NOT deflected or stopped by an outside influence and misses?

Side note: Why don't the R&A and USGA sites match in the text of their rules?

Edited June 28, 2022 by larrybud

[Halebopp]

5 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

The part that says 

 

"The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball"

 

That implies that contact must be made.

 

The definition tells us what counts as a stroke and the rule tells us how that stroke needs to (or can't) be made. There's no contradiction.

[Halebopp]

3 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Another example of needing clarification. What if the clubhead is NOT deflected or stopped by an outside influence and misses?

Side note: Why don't the R&A and USGA sites match in the text of their rules?

 

Have you read the actual definition of Stroke (underlining is mine)? A stroke has not been made if the player decides to not strike the ball and manages to miss it. In other cases the stroke counts (as long as the club stays in one piece).

 

 

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

[larrybud]

1 minute ago, Halebopp said:

 

The definition tells us what counts as a stroke and the rule tells us how that stroke needs to (or can't) be made. There's no contradiction.

Not in the USGA manual it doesn't. Ignore the R&A definition for a moment and let's go back to the USGA manual with the definition of a stroke

 

The "player definition" of a stroke says:

Stroke
The forward movement of your club made to strike the ball.

 

A fair argument could be made that if the ball is not struck, then the definition is not fulfilled. Now, I'm not arguing that. Since I've been alive "intent" is what matters. It should be reworded:

 

The forward movement of your club with the intent to strike the ball.

[Barfolomew]

wow some brother 🦆 give the kid a break he got Mutombo'd its article 5467.42 of the bylaws of golf

[Halebopp]

4 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Not in the USGA manual it doesn't. Ignore the R&A definition for a moment and let's go back to the USGA manual with the definition of a stroke

 

The "player definition" of a stroke says:

Stroke
The forward movement of your club made to strike the ball.

 

A fair argument could be made that if the ball is not struck, then the definition is not fulfilled. Now, I'm not arguing that. Since I've been alive "intent" is what matters. It should be reworded:

 

The forward movement of your club with the intent to strike the ball.

 

There's only one set of Rules of Golf, co-authored by the R&A and the USGA. It doesn't matter which one you use, the R&A is the same and just as good as the USGA definition.

[larrybud]

1 minute ago, Halebopp said:

 

There's only one set of Rules of Golf, co-authored by the R&A and the USGA. It doesn't matter which one you use, the R&A is the same and just as good as the USGA definition.

The text on their rules websites aren't the same. Did you know that?

[Halebopp]

5 minutes ago, larrybud said:

The text on their rules websites aren't the same. Did you know that?

 

No, I was not aware of that. How is this different from the R&A version outside of not including the Interpretations?

 

[Hawkeye77]

One of the easiest rules to understand.  

[Halebopp]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

One of the easiest rules to understand.  

 

When I started playing I was told it's a penalty stroke if you miss. Therefore I counted the stroke and then added a penalty stroke. 🙂

[Hawkeye77]

21 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

When I started playing I was told it's a penalty stroke if you miss. Therefore I counted the stroke and then added a penalty stroke. 🙂

But I'll bet if someone had shown you the rule, even at an early age, you would have understood it! 😀

 

I still say "line of flight" is the most misused, made up faux golf standard for golfers of all ages. 

 

I was told as a kid, by other kids, if I wasn't careful with my fishing hooks I'd get "lockjaw", lol - I'm sure my parents would have enjoyed that had it happened literally.  

Edited June 29, 2022 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

 

The part that says 

 

"The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball"

 

That implies that contact must be made.

 

No, it only says that when there is a contact it must be a momentary one. The Definition of a Stroke tells us what constitutes a stroke.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

The text on their rules websites aren't the same. Did you know that?

 

Care to point out where they differ? One of them must be wrong as the book is exactly the same for both organizations.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, larrybud said:

The text on their rules websites aren't the same. Did you know that?

 

The rules and definitions appear to be identical but organized a bit differently.

 

e.g. R&A have the interpretations, at least in the definitions, withing the definition. USGA has 3 separate tabs/locations. "Player's Edition", "Full Rules" and "Interpretations"

 

Perhaps you're looking at the "Player's Edition" instead of the "Full Rules" ?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

The rules and definitions appear to be identical but organized a bit differently.

 

e.g. R&A have the interpretations, at least in the definitions, withing the definition. USGA has 3 separate tabs/locations. "Player's Edition", "Full Rules" and "Interpretations"

 

Perhaps you're looking at the "Player's Edition" instead of the "Full Rules" ?

 

Also R&A has  "Player's Edition", "Rules of Golf (= Full Rules)" and "Interpretations", and all the texts are the same on both websites, just as you say.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

Trying to dispel some misunderstandings here.

1. There is absolutely no difference between the USGA and R&A 'versions'. There is only one version. But there are different publications they both co-author - specifically the "Player's Edition" is notably abbreviated from the "Rules of Golf" (the full rules version). And then we have the Official Guide, which adds to the full rules the Interpretations, Committee Procedures, Model Local Rules and Disability Rules. Relying on the Player's Edition can cause problems in some limited situations. RBs decided the interests of rules knowledge were better served by producing an abbreviated version in the hope more folk would carry and check it and be less daunted by the full version.

2. Rule 10.1 is not about whether there was a stroke, it is about whether the stroke that was made gets a penalty for being an illegitimate stroke. It does not "authorise" a wiff.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, antip said:

2. Rule 10.1 is not about whether there was a stroke, it is about whether the stroke that was made gets a penalty for being an illegitimate stroke. It does not "authorise" a wiff.

 

"Penalty for an illegitimate stroke" ?

 

"Authorise a whiff" ?

 

Seriously, as often happens, the usual back and forth finally uncovered the answer(s) about what is and isn't a stroke.

 

Do you really think you added to the clarification ?

 

Or have you added more confusion ?  🤦‍♀️

[antip]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

"Penalty for an illegitimate stroke" ?

 

"Authorise a whiff" ?

 

Seriously, as often happens, the usual back and forth finally uncovered the answer(s) about what is and isn't a stroke.

 

Do you really think you added to the clarification ?

 

Or have you added more confusion ?  🤦‍♀️

Above, Larrybud suggested the USGA and R&A are signed up for different things. And quoting 10.1 said:

 

"The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball"

 

That implies that contact must be made.

 

My comments respond to this. 10.1 is about making a stroke (counting stroke) in a wrong/illegitimate way. And 10.1 does not mean a wiff is not a counting stroke.