Counting a Wiff

[Colin L]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Seriously, as often happens, the usual back and forth finally uncovered the answer(s) about what is and isn't a stroke.

On the contrary, the answer about what is and isn't a stroke was given immediately after the question was asked.

 

 

 

[Halebopp]

15 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

But I'll bet if someone had shown you the rule, even at an early age, you would have understood it! 😀

 

I still say "line of flight" is the most misused, made up faux golf standard for a golfers of all ages. 

 

I was told as a kid, by other kids, if I wasn't careful with my fishing hooks I'd get "lockjaw", lol - I'm sure my parents would have enjoyed that had it happed literally.  

 

Yeah, I had enough knowledge to know the stroke counted but lacked the understanding to not trust my single-digit friends. 🙂

[Imp]

16 hours ago, larrybud said:

The text on their rules websites aren't the same. Did you know that?

They are the same. Have to select "Full Rules" and not use the "Players Edition" to see them.
----------------------------------------------------------
Interpretations says this about a stroke: 

Stroke
Stroke/1 – Determining If a Stroke Was Made
If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.
• The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, whether or not the ball is struck with the shaft.
• The clubhead separates from the shaft during the downswing and the player continues the downswing with the shaft alone, with the clubhead falling and striking the ball.

The player’s action does not count as a stroke in each of following situations:

• During the downswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player stops the downswing short of the ball, but the clubhead falls and strikes and moves the ball.
• During the backswing, a player’s clubhead separates from the shaft. The player completes the downswing with the shaft but does not strike the ball.
• A ball is lodged in a tree branch beyond the reach of a club. If the player moves the ball by striking a lower part of the branch instead of the ball, Rule 9.4 (Ball Lifted or Moved by Player) applies.

 

Going back to the OP... this was stated: "the club hit the limb on his backswing and he wiffed."  Simply hitting the tree in the backswing doesn't automatically remove the stroke, if they continued with some sort of downswing. Conversely, just having what appears to be a downswing doesn't automatically make it a stroke, either. Another player, or referee, etc... cannot make the determination for the player.

It would be up to the player to state his INTENT after the situation. Did the player continue with the swing with the intent to hit the ball (which counts as a stroke)? Or, did he miss on purpose on the downswing (to keep their balance, not break the club, etc...), which doesn't count as a stroke (definitions). What is said afterwards becomes important.  

[Mr. Bean]

Removed

Edited June 29, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Girevik]

7 hours ago, antip said:

Above, Larrybud suggested the USGA and R&A are signed up for different things. And quoting 10.1 said:

 

"The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball"

 

That implies that contact must be made.

 

My comments respond to this. 10.1 is about making a stroke (counting stroke) in a wrong/illegitimate way. And 10.1 does not mean a wiff is not a counting stroke.

 

 

I agree the bolded portion confuses things and could be taken to mean a whiff does not count as a stroke.  That "clarification" only muddies the water.

[Girevik]

17 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

Another example of needing clarification. What if the clubhead is NOT deflected or stopped by an outside influence and misses?

Side note: Why don't the R&A and USGA sites match in the text of their rules?

The OP asked for the rule showing it counts as a stroke in the case he described, and in that situation the club head DID strike the tree.

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, antip said:

Above, Larrybud suggested the USGA and R&A are signed up for different things. And quoting 10.1 said:

 

"The player must fairly strike at the ball with the head of the club such that there is only momentary contact between the club and the ball"

 

That implies that contact must be made.

 

My comments respond to this. 10.1 is about making a stroke (counting stroke) in a wrong/illegitimate way. And 10.1 does not mean a wiff is not a counting stroke.

 

 

 

I don't remember but did anybody actually say 10.1 "excused" a whiff ?

 

I don't agree with your "implication". It simply describes what a stroke is. Strike AT the ball. Nowhere does it say HIT the ball.

 

And while I agree it could've been stated a bit more clearly, there are far more complicated scenarios/descriptions in the ROG than this one.

 

You swing at the ball intending to hit it, it's a stroke.

 

And "momentary contact"  is clarified immediately in the same sentence in 10.1, describing what is not considered momentary contact. "and must not push, scrape or scoop the ball."

 

The visual of "push, scrape or scoop", to ME, once given any thought; clarifies it, at least in my mind.

 

"Momentary contact" - Club head, moving towards ball, strikes ball, ball leaves club face.

 

Nowhere (there) is a whiff described nor suggested.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't remember but did anybody actually say 10.1 "excused" a whiff ?

 

 

It was right in the post by Larrybud which antip quoted and you yourself quoted. So let me quote it once more:

 

"That implies that contact must be made."

 

Now let's move on, this subject is done.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, Girevik said:

I agree the bolded portion confuses things and could be taken to mean a whiff does not count as a stroke.  That "clarification" only muddies the water.

Absolutely not.

 

Simply means if there is contact it must be momentary, no "scooping along the ground", etc.

 

Simply addresses the "how" of making the stroke.

 

Very clear use of the English language.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Absolutely not.

 

Simply means if there is contact it must be momentary, no "scooping along the ground", etc.

 

Simply addresses the "how" of making the stroke.

 

Very clear use of the English language.

 

Exactly.

 

This is a perfect example of how two separate things regarding a stroke are described in the RoG. All one needs to do is to understand two separate things:

1) What constitutes a stroke, and

2) What kind of stroke is allowed / not allowed WHEN there is a contact with a club and a ball.

 

Very simple.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Girevik]

27 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Absolutely not.

 

Simply means if there is contact it must be momentary, no "scooping along the ground", etc.

 

Simply addresses the "how" of making the stroke.

 

Very clear use of the English language.

I agree that's what it means, but I can also see how a reasonable person might read "such that there is momentarily contact with the ball" as meaning there must be contact for it to be considered a stroke.  I'm not disputing the intent, only that it could have been worded better.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, Girevik said:

I agree that's what it means, but I can also see how a reasonable person might read "such that there is momentarily contact with the ball" as meaning there must be contact for it to be considered a stroke.  I'm not disputing the intent, only that it could have been worded better.

 

It seems to me that you either do not read the posts here or do not understand what has been written in them.

 

You cannot take one piece of the Rules and expect it to cover everything. You simply MUST understand the relevance of EVERY Rule and Definition.

 

IMO the wording in 10.1 is explicitly clear.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It was right in the post by Larrybud which antip quoted and you yourself quoted. So let me quote it once more:

 

"That implies that contact must be made."

 

Now let's move on, this subject is done.

 

 

 

Ahhhh, I'm thinking maybe because he didn't mention 10.1, and/or the fact did he didn't use the phrase "excused a whiff", might've been why I didn't remember somebody mentioning 10.1 or "excusing a whiff".

 

Moving on Cap'n,,,,,,,,, 

 

 

[D0ch0l1d4y]

Several examples of intention:

 

 

[jholz]

Man I love the rules forum.

 

I'm rarely going to enter the fray, but it's so entertaining to follow the discussion. Microcosm of society and all that.

 

You rules guys (you know who you are), thank you for taking the time and mental energy to dredge through the minutia. 

 

Always enlightening, always interesting. Keep doing what you do!

[antip]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I don't remember but did anybody actually say 10.1 "excused" a whiff ?

 

I don't agree with your "implication". It simply describes what a stroke is. Strike AT the ball. Nowhere does it say HIT the ball.

 

And while I agree it could've been stated a bit more clearly, there are far more complicated scenarios/descriptions in the ROG than this one.

 

You swing at the ball intending to hit it, it's a stroke.

 

And "momentary contact"  is clarified immediately in the same sentence in 10.1, describing what is not considered momentary contact. "and must not push, scrape or scoop the ball."

 

The visual of "push, scrape or scoop", to ME, once given any thought; clarifies it, at least in my mind.

 

"Momentary contact" - Club head, moving towards ball, strikes ball, ball leaves club face.

 

Nowhere (there) is a whiff described nor suggested.

 

 

You read it the way you want but if you think it can only be read in one possible way, then we part company. I read it in multiple ways as, in my experience, the diverse audience to this blog can read one set of words and come up with very diverse interpretations.  And I remain of the view that some may read it as justifying/suggesting a wiff is not a counting stroke. Which could have very significant implications even though the likelihood is not high. Hence my post, which I do not believe will lead to any fresh/new misunderstanding of the rules.

[JJFWebster]

I became "that guy" yesterday because I had to call a match play team on a whiff. Their low player on the hole was trying the old left handed, upside down club and on the second try (first was a whiff) put it to 4ft. It was an incredible shot. He drained the putt and said he was in for 4 because he didn't touch the ball on his first attempt... It's surprising to run into near single digit index players that don't know the rule.

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, JJFWebster said:

I became "that guy" yesterday because I had to call a match play team on a whiff. Their low player on the hole was trying the old left handed, upside down club and on the second try (first was a whiff) put it to 4ft. It was an incredible shot. He drained the putt and said he was in for 4 because he didn't touch the ball on his first attempt... It's surprising to run into near single digit index players that don't know the rule.

Incredible!  Just ask if he was trying to hit it.  As above, any attempt to hit the ball is a stroke, hit or miss.  It's not complicated, but the integrity of some players could be in doubt!

Edited June 30, 2022 by rogolf

[JJFWebster]

He agreed he had attempted the first stroke and accepted the 5. It won us the hole. There was very little small talk after that... $25 entry open match play which is basically for pride. 🤷

[antip]

4 hours ago, JJFWebster said:

I became "that guy" yesterday because I had to call a match play team on a whiff. Their low player on the hole was trying the old left handed, upside down club and on the second try (first was a whiff) put it to 4ft. It was an incredible shot. He drained the putt and said he was in for 4 because he didn't touch the ball on his first attempt... It's surprising to run into near single digit index players that don't know the rule.

That's an attractive idea, only count the attempts at the ball that you like.

[Mr. Bean]

48 minutes ago, antip said:

That's an attractive idea, only count the attempts at the ball that you like.

 

Yup! It is only a stroke if the smash factor is greater than 1.45.

[Dpavs]

46 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yup! It is only a stroke if the smash factor is greater than 1.45.

 

I like it... my scores are going to drop drastically!

[Hawkeye77]

19 hours ago, Girevik said:

I agree that's what it means, but I can also see how a reasonable person might read "such that there is momentarily contact with the ball" as meaning there must be contact for it to be considered a stroke.  I'm not disputing the intent, only that it could have been worded better.

No reasonable person would read it that way, it is worded precisely and in context with the rest of the applicable rules for a reason.

 

 

[mshills]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:44 AM, JJFWebster said:

I became "that guy" yesterday because I had to call a match play team on a whiff. Their low player on the hole was trying the old left handed, upside down club and on the second try (first was a whiff) put it to 4ft. It was an incredible shot. He drained the putt and said he was in for 4 because he didn't touch the ball on his first attempt... It's surprising to run into near single digit index players that don't know the rule.

If he had this in the bag he wouldn’t have that happen. 
 

https://clubproguy.com/products/xe747-punchout-club

 

😂

 

Agree with you…there is NO reason for confusion on this rule. I also think the official text should be cleaned up to minimize the confusion evident in this thread. 

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, mshills said:

Agree with you…there is NO reason for confusion on this rule. I also think the official text should be cleaned up to minimize the confusion evident in this thread. 

 

I do not see any need for cleaning up as the confusion has been created in the brains of people who have not understood that there is a Rule and a Definition involved.

[antip]

9 hours ago, mshills said:

 

Agree with you…there is NO reason for confusion on this rule. I also think the official text should be cleaned up to minimize the confusion evident in this thread. 

And "the confusion evident" in this thread could only be because of the official text, right? Those fiends went and put the correct information in places people didn't or couldn't find.

[TerpFangolfer]

10 hours ago, mshills said:

If he had this in the bag he wouldn’t have that happen. 
 

https://clubproguy.com/products/xe747-punchout-club

 

😂

 

Agree with you…there is NO reason for confusion on this rule. I also think the official text should be cleaned up to minimize the confusion evident in this thread. 

 

No, instead he would have been DQ'd for use of a non-conforming club!

 Poor CPG - the USGA apparently won't budge on their ruling 🤪

[TM4me]

Rules Review: Does a whiff count as a stroke?

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rules-of-golf-does-a-whiff-count-as-a-stroke

[North Butte]

In the OP's question, he included the phrase "He attempted a swing". You don't need a Rule book to know if you tried to swing and you missed, that's a whiff and a whiff counts. It ain't a subtle question requiring deep Rules knowledge. Anyone who's played golf more than a handful of times knows a whiff counts. They may not like it but they know it. 

[hammersia]

On 6/28/2022 at 2:39 PM, Girevik said:

This part of the definition of a stroke would fit the bill:

 

If a player starts the downswing with a club intending to strike the ball, his or her action counts as a stroke when:

• The clubhead is deflected or stopped by an outside influence (such as the branch of a tree) whether or not the ball is struck.

OP said the player hit the branch on his BACKSWING, not DOWNSWING, then missed the ball, so NOT a stroke IMHO.