LIV Discussion related to World Politics (*** TOPIC MODERATED ***)

[lowheel]

4 hours ago, khalespace said:

What would Saudi Arabia do to people like Caitlyn? And which tees will s/he play?

Were not in Saudi Arabia now are we? What would china or russia do? equally irrelevant

[Dicka]

1 hour ago, lowheel said:

Were not in Saudi Arabia now are we? What would china or russia do? equally irrelevant

 

This argument is so tiring...and if you don't understand now, not quite sure you ever will. The day China COMPLETELY OWNS a world golf tour and players basically sign their lives away from the world of professional golf and become paid employees doing the nation's PR work, is the day I say that's a good point.

 

The fact TFG needs to defend Saudi involvement in LIV when questioned at the course today...coming out with one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard..."nobody's gotten to the bottom of 9/11 unfortunately"...seriously? From a former POTUS, one of the most disgraceful things I've ever heard.

[lowheel]

 

 

Great take by Barkley... Hard truths spoken

[Dicka]

55 minutes ago, lowheel said:

 

 

Great take by Barkley... Hard truths spoken

 

Hey Chucky...do the Saudis 100% control Berkshire Hathaway? Fedex? Tesla? Any of those companies...are their employees required to do PR work for Saudi Arabia, unwittingly or not? Are they required to say "who hasn't made the odd mistake in their life"? 

 

The whataboutism by some of these people with $$ in their eyes is astounding.

[lowheel]

2 hours ago, Dicka said:

 

Hey Chucky...do the Saudis 100% control Berkshire Hathaway? Fedex? Tesla? Any of those companies...are their employees required to do PR work for Saudi Arabia, unwittingly or not? Are they required to say "who hasn't made the odd mistake in their life"? 

 

The whataboutism by some of these people with $$ in their eyes is astounding.

Show us where theyre doing that, ill wait.

 

Also using the magical whataboutism word here is telling... shows the depth or should is say lack of depth in your argument. In Stensons press conference today he was wearing his longtime sponsors shirt... Hugo Boss... could you kindly remind me whos uniforms that company designed and supplied about 80-90 years ago?

No country / corporation today or yesterday has clean hands but you knew that already. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by lowheel

[avrag]

5 hours ago, bighitlama said:

 

avrag:  I've followed golf a long time too but from the West side of the hazard.   I seem to recall a time when the Euro Tour was really getting great, lot's of stars, and they wanted the PGAT to work with them on their minimum event rule, to make it easier for them to be loyal to the European Tour.   As I recall, the PGAT took a tough stand and as you said, because of the money the European Tour lost their best players and eventually had to lower their minimum to get their guys to still play...  is this accurate or have I got it wrong?

 

PS  I enjoy your perspective

 

As a European golf fan first and foremost, I see it in this way. But for our American friends it seems to be more important that now the "money comes from a government", which is complety irrelevant for me.
I have looked at other social media lately, and it seems to me that especially in Australia, the feeling seems to be similar to mine, or even more aggressive in sensing some hypocrisy in the reaction of the PGA Tour. And it is not because of Norman. I have seen many comments from Australians, who also say they don't like Norman as a person, but they look forwrad to having LIV events in Australia. In these comments I have seen some schadenfreude as well, in the vein of: The PGAT ruined pro golf in Australia, now they have their reckoning.
I don't subscribe to such opinions, because I don't have these emotions. I just want everybody to get along. And I see the escalation rather on the side of the PGA Tour and the DP World Tour, including Europe's Ryder Cup committee, than on the side of LIV, especially if it comes down to the players. 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, lowheel said:

could you kindly remind me whos uniforms that company designed and supplied about 80-90 years ago?

 

[PoolPond]

14 hours ago, jdl said:

Nothing like a little more intellectual dishonesty in this thread. No, the PGA Tour (nor the US government) didn't give these DP Tour guys guaranteed money to change tours. They had to take a risk and switch tours and earn that money. 

 

Is it "OK" to do that? Sure but don't pretend these are anything close to the same thing.

I'd say it's a little bigger risk in dropping your PGA Tour status to go try out this crazy new thing that could blow up in a year, leaving you stranded, than having Titleist pay you to fly across the pond from the DP Tour to the confines of the risky PGA Tour. On the risk assessment level, the two are not even close. 

[idrive]

What non-Americans don't understand is how devastating it was to sit and watch the twin towers burn, etc. It has had a tremendous, lasting effect on a lot of people and not in a good way.

 

It launched a war.

 

There are more than a few people who still remember.

 

I'd suppose it doesn't seem like a big deal but ask any American if it had an effect on them in regard to how they look at some folks. These feelings have been, were locked in long before Golf was linked as part of the conversation.

 

It's not always easy to separate these things out. 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If someone doesn't like mine, they are most certainly entitled to ignore it, or better yet, block me.

[Frankensteins Monster]

12pm and Liv still has absolute zero trending on social media. Literally none. Furries and Tony Pizza are trending though. Liv isn’t.

 

[italianstallion]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

What non-Americans don't understand is how devastating it was to sit and watch the twin towers burn, etc. It has had a tremendous, lasting effect on a lot of people and not in a good way.

 

It launched a war.

 

There are more than a few people who still remember.

 

I'd suppose it doesn't seem like a big deal but ask any American if it had an effect on them in regard to how they look at some folks. These feelings have been, were locked in long before Golf was linked as part of the conversation.

 

It's not always easy to separate these things out. 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If someone doesn't like mine, they are most certainly entitled to ignore it, or better yet, block me.

Excellent point. I was 12, and for me and many others that was the day that ended my innocence in this world. It permanently changed how we fly and attend mass events. My father was down there the next day for two months helping with the cleanup. He’s had a lingering cough ever since and has to go to the doctors each year for a battery of tests specifically because of his exposure to the chemicals and dust in the air over that period of time. He’s been lucky so far, hundreds like him have not been. 
 

So yes, my perspective on the source of funds will always be as an American, and that will always be my first source of concern. Now, if you want to discuss having big time players play all over the world, I’m all for that, but that’s second on my list of things I care about in this situation. 
 

 

[avrag]

3 hours ago, idrive said:

What non-Americans don't understand is how devastating it was to sit and watch the twin towers burn, etc. It has had a tremendous, lasting effect on a lot of people and not in a good way.

 

It launched a war.

 

There are more than a few people who still remember.

 

I'd suppose it doesn't seem like a big deal but ask any American if it had an effect on them in regard to how they look at some folks. These feelings have been, were locked in long before Golf was linked as part of the conversation.

 

It's not always easy to separate these things out. 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If someone doesn't like mine, they are most certainly entitled to ignore it, or better yet, block me.

 

I hope I manage to write this without getting too political, so that this comment will be approved by moderators.
What non-Americans don't understand is why Americans have for decades now let their political elites get away with the narrative that Saudi-Arabia is a good ally in the region.
Honest question, and I ask you to look it up via google or youtube or whatever, look up the old reports from 2002 and 2003, look up reports from European media in the years after that:
Where could you find any reporting by US media, where could you find any statements by US politicians, which killed the narrative that Saddam was to blame? I know, Pres. Bush never said it explicitly at the time, but he always linked Iraq to terrorism, never SA. The Saudis still were the "allys and friends" in the region, even the ones, whose bases were needed desparetly for the war in Iraq.
Why? Because of the usual "logic" of American foreign policy: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" In this case the short term enemy was Iraq and the long term enemy is Iran and the enemy of the enemy is SA. And this flawed logic is what started it all, back in the 1980s in Afghanistan, when the enemy was the USSR and the enemy of the enemy were the first radical muslim fighters.
In the oh so bad "liberal" or even "left-wing" circles including media in Europe there never was a shred of a doubt, what Saudi-Arabia really is.
So, a whole nation lets all this go on like forever, and then all of a sudden, when it comes to golf players, everybody is up in arms about Saudi-Arabia being involved in terrorism or not respecting human rights.
I don't know, if I ever encountered a worse case of measuring with double standards than this one.
Ask your representative, ask your senator, ask every candidate on every level about his or her ties to Saudia Arabia and the ties his or her donors might have. Then come back and be all outraged about professional golfers taking Saudi money.
I fear that I failed at producing a comment which will be approved. But maybe I will be surprised.
 

[avrag]

1 hour ago, woodriff said:

Was in the media for 49 years, and whether for or against LIV, right now there’s a h*ll of a PR problem and I’m not sure how they’re going to solve it. One can hammer the media as much as you want, but perhaps Bedminster wasn’t a great choice for the tournament . 
1. former 45 stealing LIV thunder with multiple interviews. 
2. 9/11 families with news conferences

3. Henrik with a confused response to the Rider Cup captaincy, and threatening legal moves. 
 

The location, along with the personalities involved take away from the golf, and you can count on 45 to say something that the “dastardly” media can’t ignore. This isnt a “don’t blame the media” post. It’s a question to LIV. How to get above the foray with anything positive. 

 

I asked myself the same thing. Really bad decision by the LIV organisers to go there on so many accounts, Stenson being the least problem.

[Pastit]

5 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

I hope I manage to write this without getting too political, so that this comment will be approved by moderators.
What non-Americans don't understand is why Americans have for decades now let their political elites get away with the narrative that Saudi-Arabia is a good ally in the region.
Honest question, and I ask you to look it up via google or youtube or whatever, look up the old reports from 2002 and 2003, look up reports from European media in the years after that:
Where could you find any reporting by US media, where could you find any statements by US politicians, which killed the narrative that Saddam was to blame? I know, Pres. Bush never said it explicitly at the time, but he always linked Iraq to terrorism, never SA. The Saudis still were the "allys and friends" in the region, even the ones, whose bases were needed desparetly for the war in Iraq.
Why? Because of the usual "logic" of American foreign policy: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" In this case the short term enemy was Iraq and the long term enemy is Iran and the enemy of the enemy is SA. And this flawed logic is what started it all, back in the 1980s in Afghanistan, when the enemy was the USSR and the enemy of the enemy were the first radical muslim fighters.
In the oh so bad "liberal" or even "left-wing" circles including media in Europe there never was a shred of a doubt, what Saudi-Arabia really is.
So, a whole nation lets all this go on like forever, and then all of a sudden, when it comes to golf players, everybody is up in arms about Saudi-Arabia being involved in terrorism or not respecting human rights.
I don't know, if I ever encountered a worse case of measuring with double standards than this one.
Ask your representative, ask your senator, ask every candidate on every level about his or her ties to Saudia Arabia and the ties his or her donors might have. Then come back and be all outraged about professional golfers taking Saudi money.
I fear that I failed at producing a comment which will be approved. But maybe I will be surprised.
 

 

Good for the Mods but I'm surprised. My view simply is that sportsmen should not be asked to carry the flag. 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, woodriff said:

As time goes on, hopefully people will see the good they’re doing. And what they’re trying to accomplish, rather than looking back at the bad that’s happened before." - Bryson
 

Was in the media for 49 years, and whether for or against LIV, right now there’s a h*ll of a PR problem and I’m not sure how they’re going to solve it. One can hammer the media as much as you want, but perhaps Bedminster wasn’t a great choice for the tournament . 
1. former 45 stealing LIV thunder with multiple interviews. 
2. 9/11 families with news conferences

3. Henrik with a confused response to the Rider Cup captaincy, and threatening legal moves. 
 

The location, along with the personalities involved take away from the golf, and you can count on 45 to say something that the “dastardly” media can’t ignore. This isnt a “don’t blame the media” post. It’s a question to LIV. How to get above the foray with anything positive. 

Really good post.  Really good.  It’s as if Norman has no handlers guiding him.  😂. I can’t really tell you the level of irony I saw in the pro am pics. It’s to much to wrap my head around yet. 

[jdl]

 

[chisag]

35 minutes ago, avrag said:

Where could you find any reporting by US media, where could you find any statements by US politicians, which killed the narrative that Saddam was to blame? I know, Pres. Bush never said it explicitly at the time, but he always linked Iraq to terrorism, never SA. The Saudis still were the "allys and friends" in the region, even the ones, whose bases were needed desparetly for the war in Iraq.

You are confusing many Americans with politicians that have a 16% approval rating and an 82% disapproval rating. Many of those citizens were very much against the war in Iraq and are against Saudi oil over human rights. 

In the oh so bad "liberal" or even "left-wing" circles including media in Europe there never was a shred of a doubt, what Saudi-Arabia really is.

Same for "liberals" here in the US. 

So, a whole nation lets all this go on like forever, and then all of a sudden, when it comes to golf players, everybody is up in arms about Saudi-Arabia being involved in terrorism or not respecting human rights.
I don't know, if I ever encountered a worse case of measuring with double standards than this one.

Again, nothing could be further from the truth for any educated American citizen. 

Ask your representative, ask your senator, ask every candidate on every level about his or her ties to Saudia Arabia and the ties his or her donors might have. Then come back and be all outraged about professional golfers taking Saudi money.

And of course this is the reason "representatives" in the US do not represent the people. 
 

 

 

... Hopefully the above is seen as a response to your way off base accusations. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by chisag

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, woodriff said:

As time goes on, hopefully people will see the good they’re doing. And what they’re trying to accomplish, rather than looking back at the bad that’s happened before." - Bryson
 

Was in the media for 49 years, and whether for or against LIV, right now there’s a h*ll of a PR problem and I’m not sure how they’re going to solve it. One can hammer the media as much as you want, but perhaps Bedminster wasn’t a great choice for the tournament . 
1. former 45 stealing LIV thunder with multiple interviews. 
2. 9/11 families with news conferences

3. Henrik with a confused response to the Rider Cup captaincy, and threatening legal moves. 
 

The location, along with the personalities involved take away from the golf, and you can count on 45 to say something that the “dastardly” media can’t ignore. This isnt a “don’t blame the media” post. It’s a question to LIV. How to get above the foray with anything positive. 

45 using the presidential seal on his golf gear and being at the event in general due the 9/11 aspect of the location is getting much more coverage than the event itself lol

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, idrive said:

What non-Americans don't understand is how devastating it was to sit and watch the twin towers burn, etc. It has had a tremendous, lasting effect on a lot of people and not in a good way.

 

It launched a war.

 

There are more than a few people who still remember.

 

I'd suppose it doesn't seem like a big deal but ask any American if it had an effect on them in regard to how they look at some folks. These feelings have been, were locked in long before Golf was linked as part of the conversation.

 

It's not always easy to separate these things out. 

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If someone doesn't like mine, they are most certainly entitled to ignore it, or better yet, block me.

Even though I have and still stand that my greatest irritation in this is the ruining of competition in a general sense  in favor of leaning more to just paid entertainment….. this is very true above.    I’ll never live long  enough to forget where I was that day.  And it was in a formidable spot in my home town.  My not being a city person , makes this even  more brain piercing. Vs If I had been on the farm hearing it on the radio or by a passerby telling me.  
 

i was in a Ford  dealership showroom. The dealer lot is huge.  And is stationed at the corner of a major intersection of two arteries.  One going up town and one cross town.  3 lanes each direction crossing at one point.  No way to walk across the street ever minus a crosswalk and traffic light.  and I’m standing in a glass walled building on the first floor .  
 

we saw the planes hit live on a small color tv in the lounge.  And I walked back out to watch traffic nearly immediately stop.  The cars disappeared.  And within 15 minutes it was down to a random car every few minutes in either direction.    I stood there and walked back and forth from TV to glass for 3 hours.  As did 40 or so other people.  The phones never rang.  Nobody stopped in , and not even a ups man delivered.  The wprld  stopped.  
A couple years later I became friends with a now retired nyc cop who lived on Long Island and was downtown when it happened.   His first hand account is same but on a huge huge scale.  
 

young folks today just can’t get it . It can only be understood by living it.      Which is natural.  It’s not their fault.  

Edited July 29, 2022 by bladehunter

[jonsnow]

24 minutes ago, avrag said:

 

I hope I manage to write this without getting too political, so that this comment will be approved by moderators.
What non-Americans don't understand is why Americans have for decades now let their political elites get away with the narrative that Saudi-Arabia is a good ally in the region.
Honest question, and I ask you to look it up via google or youtube or whatever, look up the old reports from 2002 and 2003, look up reports from European media in the years after that:
Where could you find any reporting by US media, where could you find any statements by US politicians, which killed the narrative that Saddam was to blame? I know, Pres. Bush never said it explicitly at the time, but he always linked Iraq to terrorism, never SA. The Saudis still were the "allys and friends" in the region, even the ones, whose bases were needed desparetly for the war in Iraq.
Why? Because of the usual "logic" of American foreign policy: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" In this case the short term enemy was Iraq and the long term enemy is Iran and the enemy of the enemy is SA. And this flawed logic is what started it all, back in the 1980s in Afghanistan, when the enemy was the USSR and the enemy of the enemy were the first radical muslim fighters.
In the oh so bad "liberal" or even "left-wing" circles including media in Europe there never was a shred of a doubt, what Saudi-Arabia really is.
So, a whole nation lets all this go on like forever, and then all of a sudden, when it comes to golf players, everybody is up in arms about Saudi-Arabia being involved in terrorism or not respecting human rights.
I don't know, if I ever encountered a worse case of measuring with double standards than this one.
Ask your representative, ask your senator, ask every candidate on every level about his or her ties to Saudia Arabia and the ties his or her donors might have. Then come back and be all outraged about professional golfers taking Saudi money.
I fear that I failed at producing a comment which will be approved. But maybe I will be surprised.
 

If it weren't for double standards, we'd have no standards at all.

[bladehunter]

Here goes.  😂

 

the pro am happenings at the LIV bedminster event , looked like a weird mashing of all sides.  Certainly not leaning only one way.  And it seems to be the worst of all sides combined for some counter culture version of the power rangers super mega tigerzord. Except it has a hippo head , fish fin arms and club feet.  
 

like some epic gathering of failure.  I say that not even coming close to showing you my cards as far as politics. Lol. That’s how odd this looked to me. 
 

 

 

 

On 7/29/2022 at 7:48 AM, jonsnow said:

If it weren't for double standards, we'd have no standards at all.

Very true. But the alternative has always been have no friends at all.  Right ?  Most Ally’s  now are either conquered by us , or do so for protection from their larger brothers.  No real friends.  Maybe Canada. Maybe ???  
 

so it’s tough to call fowl for backing an enemy , when all you have is enemies. 

[bighitlama]

11 hours ago, avrag said:

 

As a European golf fan first and foremost, I see it in this way. But for our American friends it seems to be more important that now the "money comes from a government", which is complety irrelevant for me.
 

 

Americans like most people see things from their point of view.   While I think our economic system is the best in the world, I do not lose sight of the fact that things are different in other countries.   Where as our free capitalist economy allows individuals and companies to create great wealth, in many countries that is not possible.  So when someone complains that the money behind LIV is coming from a country, I guess they don't understand or don't want to admit, that's the only way it could be done in Saudi.   Whether it's the Saudi gov, the Royal Family or the PIF fund, that's the only way it could be done in Saudi when a project is this big.

[Murphy76]

 

To veer *slightly* off-topic:  

 

The thing that sticks in my craw is how so many players/pundits say that they are trying to "Grow the Game".   Grow the game??? 

 

What does this even mean?  Are millions of 12-year-old kids going to suddenly start playing because some d-bag plays on another tour?  Are golf courses going to be suddenly built in the inner cities?  Will prices for equipment/tee-times suddenly drop?  

 

I call complete bull on the whole idea.  As if this is some noble pursuit.....

 

This comes down to two things:  Money and influence.  

 

To pretend it is anything else is insulting and stupid.  

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Murphy76

[miamistomp]

20 hours ago, avrag said:

As I pointed out in my other comment, it is not LIV talking point, it is the truth. Of course, one would not know this truth, if one only registers, what happens in the USA.

 We get it you are not from "here"

   Nobody is making any veiled remarks about your homeland ( whatver it is)

 

It is also quite possible that many of us have views that do not reflect official USA policy and maybe, have a different moral view

[mahonie]

11 minutes ago, bighitlama said:

 

The biggest obstacle LIV has is a broadcast partner in the US, believe me, they know it and it is priority one.   But don't lose site of the fact that they have already pulled it off in 150 other countries and territories.   It's my opinion that LIVs attorneys advised Norman to offer the product for free or even be willing to pay to have it broadcast in America.    It's going to be a very strong argument when this goes to trial, that the only thing that prevented it from being on broadcast TV in America was collusion and restraint of trade because if they had been paid to broadcast it they would have been guaranteed a profit.

Just watching now for free on YouTube. I'm not a massive fan of televised Pro golf but I have to say this is a good watch...I'm not used to seeing so many golf shots! No adverts, understated commentary...and golf shots! Benefit of the shot gun start is that there are always golf shots. Did I mention I'm seeing lots of golf shots? Oosthuizen with 8 on one hole!

 

Just looking to see if I can cancel my Sky Golf subscription although I think it is wrapped up in the overall Sky Sports package. 

 

This is a massive improvement on any other televised golf...lots of golf shots!!

[Shortgamemagic]

3 hours ago, Pastit said:

 

Good for the Mods but I'm surprised. My view simply is that sportsmen should not be asked to carry the flag. 

Not a fan of the Olympics or World Cup? Or Ryder cup? 

[Shortgamemagic]

2 hours ago, bighitlama said:

 

Americans like most people see things from their point of view.   While I think our economic system is the best in the world, I do not lose sight of the fact that things are different in other countries.   Where as our free capitalist economy allows individuals and companies to create great wealth, in many countries that is not possible.  So when someone complains that the money behind LIV is coming from a country, I guess they don't understand or don't want to admit, that's the only way it could be done in Saudi.   Whether it's the Saudi gov, the Royal Family or the PIF fund, that's the only way it could be done in Saudi when a project is this big.

But it’s NOT being done in Saudi. There’re in New Jersey right now 

[avrag]

2 hours ago, miamistomp said:

 We get it you are not from "here"

   Nobody is making any veiled remarks about your homeland ( whatver it is)

 

It is also quite possible that many of us have views that do not reflect official USA policy and maybe, have a different moral view

 

Good to hear.

[avrag]

3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Hopefully the above is seen as a response to your way off base accusations. 

And a good one at that. Is till don't think that I was way off base.

[TwistedSister]

On 7/28/2022 at 6:25 PM, Dicka said:

 

This argument is so tiring...and if you don't understand now, not quite sure you ever will. The day China COMPLETELY OWNS a world golf tour and players basically sign their lives away from the world of professional golf and become paid employees doing the nation's PR work, is the day I say that's a good point.

 

 

Ok here goes.  I'll probably get banned again but I find this comment rather disingenuous.  After all, all we have to do to find out the answer is look at the NBA.  As much in bed with China as LIV is with SA  and China's Human rights record is definitely no better than SA's.  And the big name players are hesitant to ever call out China. So if this is too political please don't ban me just don't post it up.  I've been trying to keep "my nose clean".

Edited July 30, 2022 by dhacker56
grammar error