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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


SheriffBooth

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Unless the PGA Tour pays players, they are not 1099 recipients as independent contractors.  My CPA wife thinks that players are more self-employed rather than independent contractors, but still, unless they are directly paid by the PGA Tour, they are not 1099 employees.  Each tournament where they win money will send 1099's to every player winning money.

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5 minutes ago, farmer said:

Unless the PGA Tour pays players, they are not 1099 recipients as independent contractors.  My CPA wife thinks that players are more self-employed rather than independent contractors, but still, unless they are directly paid by the PGA Tour, they are not 1099 employees.  Each tournament where they win money will send 1099's to every player winning money.

 

If you look at the tax filings for the tour, they list the biggest contractors and it's Rory McIlroy Enterprises LLC, so yes the players themselves are a business.

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1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

So if your synopsis is true, the PGA Tour never really built or had any meaningful relationships with their sponsors; it was all about money.

 

These are such sad analysis's of the situation at hand.

Yes, professional sports have been and will continue to be about money. 

 

The difference between the PGAT and LIV is that LIV sole focus is about harnessing that money for the benefit of fewer and fewer people.

 

 

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1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

You are not an employee of the tour but you agree to certain rules. Just like any other 1099 contractor in the job market. I think the tour has forgotten that it represents the players and is a partnership but historically, the players and caddies have been treated a little 2nd class by tour leadership. Basically they are performers and they shouldn't worry about how the tour makes financial decisions and trust of tour leadership has been lost. Now the LIV comes along, players trust former players and huge money always helps. 

I believe the players have forgotten the Tour built the platform/model that made them who they are. There are more players/caddies available to sustain the biz model than leadership who runs it.  Just like every successful corp...individual contributors (i.e., golfers) are replaceable.  

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11 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Could they not get around that by saying “ ok you broke the bylaws …. You're suspended for 3 years” . Most of them would lose status in that time.  Then make them come through and qualify like anyone else.  That’s not blocking access.  That’s an access pause not a denial.  
 

Then we’d see how many could Monday  qualify or make it through the korn ferry.  That would be good comedy.  
 

i guess I can possibly see them beating a ban.  I don’t know if I see them beating a suspension long enough to lose status. I’d find it hard to believe that any business wile not be allowed to have any teeth in a non compete or for a membership if that’s the angle they’re forced to quantify it in.  We all know that membership has rules.  


On your first point, byelaws, I suspect U.K. and EU laws are tougher on restraint of trade than that of the US. Over here then, a court would have to decide what harm would result from the established tours banning the LIV players wishing to stay on the DPWT. 
 

Two types of harm then:

 

To the DPWT by the potential loss of sponsors and revenue if their members play LIV and the DPWT in future;

 

To the banned players by loss of potential WR points, revenue and status from events lost to them.
 

The DPWT board is largely composed of senior players, I can see them taking on an expensive court battle with reluctance. As soon as a major sponsor or TV deal deserts ( or is altered adversely ) then the game is up for them in my opinion.

 

If the players commit to the minimum numbers of events they’re required to play on both established tours then they have a good case in my view. As a guess this might be about 18 events as of today. If the number of events is increased then subsequent expulsions of those breaching any new rule could be viewed as unlawful. It could be viewed as an unreasonable tactic to restrain trade. 
 

The two established Tours need to sit down with LIV to avoid tearing the game apart. It looks like the DPWT will suffer the greatest damage by the cream selecting to play on the two richest tours rather than playing three tours. Rory has already abandoned the DPWT, formally I believe.
 

 

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4 hours ago, bekgolf said:

Hoping to get one judge out of many to rule in their favor and then use that as a basis of law for the future?

 

It's insane to sue the tour when a player violated a contract they agreed to.  None of it makes any sense.


The actions will be heard by one judge I suspect, if your point was that multiple judges would be involved. Because the issues are largely identical.. 

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On 8/2/2022 at 2:08 PM, Puppy_Flower said:

 

The distractions at a pro event are unreal. Private planes with banners circling non-stop. The Blimp makes a lot of noise. The patrons are usually two-fisted at 8am and by noon full on drunk just yakking it up near the greens. Most of this you can't see or hear on TV.

 

Honestly I'm amazed at how these guys can tune it all out and still play at the highest level.

The louder it is, the quieter it gets

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33 minutes ago, hunterdog said:

Would you agree that the LIV (54) Tour should also let players play where and when they want?  Rory decides he wants to play a couple, but not all 8 or 14, and then play PGAT events that conflict with LIV (54) events, you would argue that he should be allowed to do so?


Oikos misses the point re sponsors. In my experience there is huge demand upon sponsors for funds and the decisions to sponsor are not taken lightly. 
 

The top European Tour players treat their sponsors badly and they rarely  travel to northern region U.K. tournaments save in Scotland. Sponsors want a numbers commitment to their event. I’ve no sympathy for this group of players and we can see who they are clearly - mostly they’re at LIV. Surely the rest will follow. 
 

When my firm granted sponsorship we were offered Damon Hill in his motorbike days. Instead, my boss granted funds to a guy wanting to sail the Atlantic in a bath-tub. It sank in Poole Harbour just after launching.

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1 hour ago, hunterdog said:

Would you agree that the LIV (54) Tour should also let players play where and when they want?  Rory decides he wants to play a couple, but not all 8 or 14, and then play PGAT events that conflict with LIV (54) events, you would argue that he should be allowed to do so?

Surely Team54 Exhibition should not have a problem with letting Pgatour players play, right!?! If they do have a problem with it, then expect a lawsuit.......

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1 hour ago, hunterdog said:

Would you agree that the LIV (54) Tour should also let players play where and when they want?  Rory decides he wants to play a couple, but not all 8 or 14, and then play PGAT events that conflict with LIV (54) events, you would argue that he should be allowed to do so?

That's not how this LIV thing works. They want their marquee players to play all the LIV events, that's why they made the contracts that way. How should they build marketable teams like the "Chopsticks" or the "4 Stooges" if the recruited players, let alone the captains can choose to sit out? If Koepka and Reed decide to sit out they have to bring back Ian Snyman and Andy Ogletree, I doubt there's any interest in that. And the field fillers like Jediah Morgan have to wait every time if some big name decides to play a one-off. If it was possible to just go there and play would bring them a small step closer to getting OWGR points. But Norman wants it to be closed shop. He wanted the stars of the game to commit fully and then press the other tours to let them play. I think he grossly miscalculated the number of good players he thought he would get. Plan A was not to buy Pat Perez for 10 million dollars or to present Charles Howell as the great addition to LIV golf.

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54 minutes ago, Pastit said:


Instead, my boss granted funds to a guy wanting to sail the Atlantic in a bath-tub. It sank in Poole Harbour just after launching.

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27 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Surely Team54 Exhibition should not have a problem with letting Pgatour players play, right!?! If they do have a problem with it, then expect a lawsuit.......

LIV would welcome it. That's not a path the players would want to venture down. 

 

Unless....

 

They sue to get a spot in a LIV event, LIV pushes away guys like McDowell and schwartzel to make room for guys like rory and jt and then rory and jt withdraw at the last minute with no notice...just no-show for their tee times. 

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27 minutes ago, mogc60 said:

I have no interest in the LIV tour. Being honest it’s because most of their players are not what I would call interesting and are mostly past their prime. The format I don’t like, and their tournaments have zero relevance. It’s all show.  These players left with the ego of their void would be noticed or missed. Quite the contrary, it’s still great golf every week on the PGA tour. There are 100 Korn Ferry players and hundreds more internationally ready to take their spot. The Schefflers and Cam Smiths and Zalatoris were all no status a few years ago, now they are the best in the world. By next year 25 relevant players will fill the void left by liv players and their level of golf will be top level. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, _Wang_ said:

I honestly am baffled why they cant both co exist.

I am an Australian and will watch any golf with quality players

 

BTW I know why and its money.

 

But reading social media etc it seems like PGA tour supporters are it is all or nothing with the players. I don't get it

I think that's the general feeling if you're not American.  Another tour, let them play and let fans choose what they want to see.  I remember on the second tournament's press conference the media guys were soft and nice with international players; but when it came to American players, journalists treated them harsh to the point of treason.  At this point there's a huge mixture of pro sport, big time money, nationalism, pride and anger. 

 

I don't even think this is too relevant out of US pro golf, which controls world pro golf and now they're feeling the threat has materialized.  And the specialized media can't be happier with so much food to feed from.

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8 hours ago, SE Gamer said:

 

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. The fields get weak enough, I may have a shot at winning the Masters in a few years. 

 

I've done some in depth research on this and it seems like if you're a 4 handicap and you're grouped with Tommy Fleetwood and Smylie Kaufman, you have a shot.

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7 hours ago, Pastit said:


On your first point, byelaws, I suspect U.K. and EU laws are tougher on restraint of trade than that of the US. Over here then, a court would have to decide what harm would result from the established tours banning the LIV players wishing to stay on the DPWT. 
 

Two types of harm then:

 

To the DPWT by the potential loss of sponsors and revenue if their members play LIV and the DPWT in future;

 

To the banned players by loss of potential WR points, revenue and status from events lost to them.
 

The DPWT board is largely composed of senior players, I can see them taking on an expensive court battle with reluctance. As soon as a major sponsor or TV deal deserts ( or is altered adversely ) then the game is up for them in my opinion.

 

If the players commit to the minimum numbers of events they’re required to play on both established tours then they have a good case in my view. As a guess this might be about 18 events as of today. If the number of events is increased then subsequent expulsions of those breaching any new rule could be viewed as unlawful. It could be viewed as an unreasonable tactic to restrain trade. 
 

The two established Tours need to sit down with LIV to avoid tearing the game apart. It looks like the DPWT will suffer the greatest damage by the cream selecting to play on the two richest tours rather than playing three tours. Rory has already abandoned the DPWT, formally I believe.
 

 

Is the minimum for the DPwt same as pga tour at 14or 15 events ? ( I forget ). 
 

i think that’s the kicker here. If the players commit to playing the minimum, they may well get status back. But that makes hypocrites out of them all as their reasons for leaving expressed are all “ more family time less golf tournaments “.  Now they’ll be playing 29-30 events on two tours. 
 

For that reason I suspect they don’t see that as a win.  The real goal is to be able to cherry pick pga and DP tour events  in order to keep world ranking points so the LIV appears to be legitimate by showing “ top ranked players “.  Otherwise that monicker can’t be used many more months as they drop down the rankings.  

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6 minutes ago, rizzo66 said:

That was the attitude of the PGAT players at the 3M Open a couple weeks ago. I ran the Practice facility there and the talk among players and caddies was exactly that. Good for them if they decided to leave, but don't come back. And if they sue they can F themselves .  


But do you know how tennis works by any chance ? Road-race cycling too, how do those tours work ?
 

I see all sorts of nationalities at Wimbledon who get in by a ranking measure, qualifying or wild cards. If LIV sets up a non-comic book style of event, I can’t see their players being excluded from WGC or Major events.
 

So removing world points held pre-LIV is likely illegal and attempts to tailor Major qualification criteria to exclude LIV players otherwise qualified will be judged in the same way. 

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9 hours ago, farmer said:

^^^^

But unless the Tour is paying them, the LLC's are not 1099 employees.  I've done business with LLC's, and at the end of the year, I don't send them a 1099, because that doesn't apply to corporations.

Exactly.  You 1099 individuals.  Not LLCs  etc. 

 

i don’t see how hey could operate on a 1099 anyway. They tax based on each state or country they’re in.   Would be a nightmare for the tour to account for. Paying a corp would be simplest. Let the company that gets paid figure out their own tax liabilities 

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4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Is the minimum for the DPwt same as pga tour at 14or 15 events ? ( I forget ). 
 

i think that’s the kicker here. If the players commit to playing the minimum, they may well get status back. But that makes hypocrites out of them all as their reasons for leaving expressed are all “ more family time less golf tournaments “.  Now they’ll be playing 29-30 events on two tours. 
 

For that reason I suspect they don’t see that as a win.  The real goal is to be able to cherry pick pga and DP tour events  in order to keep world ranking points so the LIV appears to be legitimate by showing “ top ranked players “.  Otherwise that monicker can’t be used many more months as they drop down the rankings.  


It was 11 I think when Els complained pre WGC coming. Taking those 4 or 5 +  4 majors leaves only 2 or 3 other events needed - usually relevant players add the Wentworth and Dubai area events for that purpose.  
 

I need to check Rory as he may be a member for life as I don’t think he plays enough events here but can play Ryder Cup. Do you know ?

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