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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


SheriffBooth

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17 hours ago, SheriffBooth said:

Just a quick scan of the lawsuit and it reads like the PGA Tour forced these guys to jump ship.  And apparently the PGA Tour made Workday drop Phil - it had nothing to do with his own decision making.  I realize this is a Complaint, so it needs to be self-serving, but I'm not sure some of these allegations pass the red-face test.

 

That was what I was saying very early on regarding personal contracts with sponsors that also sponsor events such as RBC, Rocket Mortgage, etc.  If there is evidence that PGAT officials advised/pressured/convinced sponsors to drop individual players that surely has legal ramifications.  I don't know the actual statutes or grounds but my gut tells me that it has to be against the law somehow.

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1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

This is spinning out of control for Norman and liv. 
 

SA are reasonably good investors but you really can’t point to any other business spaces besides oil that demonstrate the ability to cultivate a global business like an entire sports league on this scale.

 

The F1 and soccer investments were into exiting entities/franchises with established models and brands. 
 

The LIV has overplayed its hand here and has quickly pushed people to take sides. For both golf fans and even in the broader social conversation.

 

They can’t afford to alienate pga tour fans much less a population at large. Even many of those who supported liv as healthy “competition” don’t want what we see developing here. 
 

PGA tour fans are a complete necessity for the liv to succeed. So how will they succeed if a large percentage (or even a majority) of pga tour fans end up despising their brand. 

Absolutely.  I been yelling this. The only thing I don’t see discussed on TV it here is fans.  Go to YouTube and other places and read comments. The fan base at large is not behind this. And now  they’re making a line in the sand.  A lot of guys who have watched some LIV will wake up soon and go -

 

“oh wait. This might actually do away with the real tour …. I’m not for that “!  


i can’t tell you how many comments I’ve had directed at me here from guys who think both can survive together.  There’s 0% chance of that.  Choose your side.  

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1 minute ago, Pastit said:


It was 11 I think when Els complained pre WGC coming. Taking those 4 or 5 +  4 majors leaves only 2 or 3 other events needed - usually relevant players add the Wentworth and Dubai area events for that purpose.  
 

I need to check Rory as he may be a member for life as I don’t think he plays enough events here but can play Ryder Cup. Do you know ?

I honestly don’t.  But that sounds plausible given his record.  

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Have their "world points" been removed?  I don't believe that has happened. 

 

Has it?

 

It's early and here I go posting again before the coffee's ready.

5 minutes ago, Pastit said:


But do you know how tennis works by any chance ? Road-race cycling too, how do those tours work ?
 

I see all sorts of nationalities at Wimbledon who get in by a ranking measure, qualifying or wild cards. If LIV sets up a non-comic book style of event, I can’t see their players being excluded from WGC or Major events.
 

So removing world points held pre-LIV is likely illegal and attempts to tailor Major qualification criteria to exclude LIV players otherwise qualified will be judged in the same way. 

 

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4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I honestly don’t.  But that sounds plausible given his record.  


I’ll find out and advise, for now, support the tour upon which you developed your game ? quote Nov 2021: Not for Rory apparently -

 

”   

 
Rory McIlroy unlikely to change schedule despite new-look European Tour. Rory McIlroy admits the new-look European Tour is unlikely to spark a major change in his schedule as he defended Jon Rahm's decision to miss the season-ending DP World Tour Championship. “
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8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Absolutely.  I been yelling this. The only thing I don’t see discussed on TV it here is fans.  Go to YouTube and other places and read comments. The fan base at large is not behind this. And now  they’re making a line in the sand.  A lot of guys who have watched some LIV will wake up soon and go -

 

“oh wait. This might actually do away with the real tour …. I’m not for that “!  


i can’t tell you how many comments I’ve had directed at me here from guys who think both can survive together.  There’s 0% chance of that.  Choose your side.  

 

At the end of the day though if there is demand for pro golf , then there will be a pro golf business. LIV aside, probably half the PGA tour events are pretty boring and that's coming from someone who is a big golf fan (being a member here and all...)

 

I like some of the aspects of LIV. I actually wrote for this website 6-7 years ago that i wish the PGA tour would adopt more different styles of tournaments, maybe more that had a team element, an allstar weekend , blah blah. Stuff so that everything beyond the Majors and WGCs wasn't so mundane.

 

The PGA tour beating everyone over the head with terms like "meritocracy" and "tradition" and etc....I think they have poor leadership and are missing the point. Pro golf is a business. League's like the NBA figured that out, they don't care about the tradition of FIBA or anything else. They want people to watch.

 

I don't know that the PGA has really done much of anything to make the product more interesting. Maybe LIV will compel some of that. I don't see the tour just folding

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13 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

This is spinning out of control for Norman and liv. 
 

SA are reasonably good investors but you really can’t point to any other business spaces besides oil that demonstrate the ability to cultivate a global business like an entire sports league on this scale.

 

The F1 and soccer investments were into exiting entities/franchises with established models and brands. 
 

The LIV has overplayed its hand here and has quickly pushed people to take sides. For both golf fans and even in the broader social conversation.

 

They can’t afford to alienate pga tour fans much less a population at large. Even many of those who supported liv as healthy “competition” don’t want what we see developing here. 
 

PGA tour fans are a complete necessity for the liv to succeed. So how will they succeed if a large percentage (or even a majority) of pga tour fans end up despising their brand. 

 This is exactly what I have been thinking about.   Is this the face of sports washing, to come in and have a very public battle  and a court battle and disrupt business?   I would have thought it would have been to slide in unnoticed and make yourself a part of the sport.

 

and the court….  People talk about now the PGA will be uncovered… it was a lot less covered than many think….. but LIV is in complete secrecy.   Being in court, we are now going to find out exactly the finances of LIV, and what the players contracts and finances are.   

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5 minutes ago, idrive said:

PGA/DPW players cannot play liv tournaments without GN's invitation.

 

But - liv players are supposed to be able to play any tournament they choose outside of liv.

 

There's no way this holds up in court.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I don't understand the lawsuit at all considering it's coming from the players and not from LIV. A lot of the evidence presented seems like it applies more to LIV calling the PGA Tour a monopoly. Claims that the PGA Tour told vendors they'd be blacklisted if they worked with LIV seems like a suit that Greg Norman would bring, not that Phil and Bryson would bring.

 

For the players it seems pretty clearly not a monopoly if they were able to leave and get paid out like 10X their previous winnings?

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2 minutes ago, Danielson said:

 

I'm not a lawyer but I don't understand the lawsuit at all considering it's coming from the players and not from LIV. A lot of the evidence presented seems like it applies more to LIV calling the PGA Tour a monopoly. Claims that the PGA Tour told vendors they'd be blacklisted if they worked with LIV seems like a suit that Greg Norman would bring, not that Phil and Bryson would bring.

 

For the players it seems pretty clearly not a monopoly if they were able to leave and get paid out like 10X their previous winnings?


I doubt if LIV have legal standing in that action. But it might be possible for the players involved to assign it or be backed financially by LIV.

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22 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

PGA tour fans are a complete necessity for the liv to succeed. So how will they succeed if a large percentage (or even a majority) of pga tour fans end up despising their brand. 

 

 

Unfortunately, because they have countless bazillions to throw at it.  IMO that's the bottom line to this whole debacle.

 

I also don't see how asking someone you do business with to not support the competition is illegal.

 

 

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After reading most of the lawsuit and a lot of the posts in this thread, I personally think this is going to be an interesting case.  A lot of people don’t think the case has merit, but when this moves forward, there is going to be a lot of discovery and that is what might come back and bite the PGAT.  Phil seems to be the 1 person who was most harmed by all of this from just reading the complaint.  One thing not mentioned is this was filed in the same court as the Ed O’Bannon case against the NCAA, which completely forced a lot of the changes currently happening in college sports.  From what I read this court tends to lean toward plaintiffs in anti-trust cases provided the case has merit.

 

In the end the only people that are going to come out as winners in this are the lawyers. 

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28 minutes ago, Pastit said:

I see all sorts of nationalities at Wimbledon who get in by a ranking measure, qualifying or wild cards. If LIV sets up a non-comic book style of event, I can’t see their players being excluded from WGC or Major events.

 

So removing world points held pre-LIV is likely illegal and attempts to tailor Major qualification criteria to exclude LIV players otherwise qualified will be judged in the same way. 

 

I think that LIV will get ranked - because the OWGR won’t want to go into battle over that.

 

In the current form, there won’t even be a lot of points available comparatively to the PGAT or majors.   The Strength of Field isn’t there, even if you actually had a couple players inside the top 10, which they don’t have anyone in the top 15 now.   

 

And nobody is taking OWGR points from the current players.   But as those points age out, just like it works for every other golfer, those golfers are dropping in ranking.   By the Masters, DJ, Ancer, and Oostie who are the highest ranked now between 18 and 25 will probably all fall under #40, and the others inside the top 50 now will all be out of the top 50.   Phil and Westwood will be out of the top 100 in the next few weeks.  That all decreases strength of field, and is taking no special steps for it to happen….   The small field of LIV also greatly hurts the strength of field - and there is a discount applied for the 54 holes too… all built into the current calculations.

 

So I tend to think the majors will change nothing about exemptions, and the OWGR will change nothing and start ranking tournaments.   And very few, if any, LIV golfers will find their way into majors without past win exemptions, or playing in a qualifier for the Opens.  

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8 minutes ago, Pastit said:


I doubt if LIV have legal standing in that action. But it might be possible for the players involved to assign it or be backed financially by LIV.

 

Either that, or it’s an attempt to not have everything about LIV and the PIF and MBS become evidence in court.   We are still going to learn a LOT about LIV and the finances and that of the players too.

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2 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

After reading most of the lawsuit and a lot of the posts in this thread, I personally think this is going to be an interesting case.  A lot of people don’t think the case has merit, but when this moves forward, there is going to be a lot of discovery and that is what might come back and bite the PGAT.  Phil seems to be the 1 person who was most harmed by all of this from just reading the complaint.  One thing not mentioned is this was filed in the same court as the Ed O’Bannon case against the NCAA, which completely forced a lot of the changes currently happening in college sports.  From what I read this court tends to lean toward plaintiffs in anti-trust cases provided the case has merit.

 

In the end the only people that are going to come out as winners in this are the lawyers. 

 

From what I've gathered, these lawyers are all the tippy top of their fields and are going to make an absolute killing.

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1 minute ago, mitchl said:

 

I think that LIV will get ranked - because the OWGR won’t want to go into battle over that.

 

In the current form, there won’t even be a lot of points available comparatively to the PGAT or majors.   The Strength of Field isn’t there, even if you actually had a couple players inside the top 10, which they don’t have anyone in the top 15 now.   

 

And nobody is taking OWGR points from the current players.   But as those points age out, just like it works for every other golfer, those golfers are dropping in ranking.   By the Masters, DJ, Ancer, and Oostie who are the highest ranked now between 18 and 25 will probably all fall under #40, and the others inside the top 50 now will all be out of the top 50.   Phil and Westwood will be out of the top 100 in the next few weeks.  That all decreases strength of field, and is taking no special steps for it to happen….   The small field of LIV also greatly hurts the strength of field - and there is a discount applied for the 54 holes too… all built into the current calculations.

 

So I tend to think the majors will change nothing about exemptions, and the OWGR will change nothing and start ranking tournaments.   And very few, if any, LIV golfers will find their way into majors without past win exemptions, or playing in a qualifier for the Opens.  


Yes I erred, I should have said FEDEX points removed from suspended players. Thanks

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5 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

Unfortunately, because they have countless bazillions to throw at it.  IMO that's the bottom line to this whole debacle.

 

I also don't see how asking someone you do business with to not support the competition is illegal.

 

 

It’s not about asking them not to do business with someone, if some of this is true, it’s the threatening, and the restricting those partners from making their own choices who they may want to partner with.

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13 hours ago, Ronnie Mundt said:

Where does it say that LIV players are employees of LIV? I haven’t read that anywhere. Just because an agreement was signed regarding compensation doesn’t mean these guys are employees and that LIV is their employer. I’m a lawyer and have read about 80 pages of the complaint. It’s interesting, that’s all I will say. It will be even more interesting once discovery occurs.

My simplest response to this - ask Graeme McDowell why he couldn't play in the Horizon Irish Open this year.

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11 minutes ago, mitchl said:

 

Either that, or it’s an attempt to not have everything about LIV and the PIF and MBS become evidence in court.   We are still going to learn a LOT about LIV and the finances and that of the players too.


The urgent relief sought is about those players seeking FedEx Cup entry I believe. So no trial can happen before the FEDEX Cup starts clearly. 
 

If LIV has a right of action and chooses to pursue it, it can ask to be added to the case if the same events giving a right of action to LIV players exist. 

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16 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

After reading most of the lawsuit and a lot of the posts in this thread, I personally think this is going to be an interesting case.  A lot of people don’t think the case has merit, but when this moves forward, there is going to be a lot of discovery and that is what might come back and bite the PGAT.  Phil seems to be the 1 person who was most harmed by all of this from just reading the complaint.  One thing not mentioned is this was filed in the same court as the Ed O’Bannon case against the NCAA, which completely forced a lot of the changes currently happening in college sports.  From what I read this court tends to lean toward plaintiffs in anti-trust cases provided the case has merit.

 

In the end the only people that are going to come out as winners in this are the lawyers. 


agree with everything you said except for Phil being the most harmed.  He received $200 million from LIV and an opportunity to play less for more money.  What are his damages?

 

 

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17 hours ago, RH82 said:

If LIV wants to be taken somewhat seriously they need to go to 4 rounds and remove the team nonsense and the shotgun start.

 

Those differences may not appeal to you or other traditional golf entertainment viewers, but they have plenty who do like them.  One more round of golf does nothing for me aside from providing more shots to see.  I am not watching it to see if my favorite player wins or if there is great drama coming down to the final few holes.  Three rounds with compressed coverage puts more shots in front of me to view than a traditional PGAT broadcast if their tournament was 96 holes.

 

I too could care less about how they have implemented the team business.  Perhaps there is a longer term plan, as I have heard rumblings, to be able to sponsor or invest in the teams.  If this is an eventual lynch-pin I don't see them going away from the team aspect.  It needs to be tweaked to continue to be interesting imo.

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1 minute ago, idrive said:

Guy comes in and wants a job with my business (transportation) driving.

 

Tells me he already works for my competitor, looking to add a few more hours.

 

I tell him no, I'm not interested in hiring you for the reason you work for the other guy.

 

You're going to tell me I can't do/say that and then sue me?

 

 

And a big reason the courts are so backlogged.  The attorneys will drag this out as long as GN keeps signing their checks

In your case you have every right to make that determination, and if that person sued you, the case would be dismissed in 1/2 a second.  

 

This may be a bad example since your business is different than the PGAT.  If you have an employee and he comes to you and says he needs more hours, and tells you he is going to work part time for your competitor after he fulfills his obligations to you, and you threaten termination, loss of benefits, start reducing hours, then him filing suit may have more merit. 

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17 hours ago, clevited said:

I get a bit of arena football league vibe from LIV with the team thing, but I think overall, competition is good for the Tour.  Hopefully long term the competing pro golf circuits will evolve the game for the better and invigorate it.  I want to see the stuffiness of the game go away and it become a little more "cool" and approachable for more people.

 

They tell me they are athletes.  Perhaps we can now start to approach it as a sport.  Some of the pretense may fall away.

 

That won't be for everybody and that is okay.  How do you attract new and different viewers/consumers if you put out the same product in the same way as your competition?

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11 hours ago, bekgolf said:

Liv succeeds then PGA dies and I'm no longer a golf watcher.  Goodbye advertisers, sponsors, and great golfers who made it great.  I'll miss you.

Same here...

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3 minutes ago, lowndes said:


agree with everything you said except for Phil being the most harmed.  He received $200 million from LIV and an opportunity to play less for more money.  What are his damages?

 

 

If the tour told his sponsors to drop him, that is the damage, loss of those partnerships, harm to reputation for future endorsements, harm to his foundation taking away the partnership from the American Express championship.  Now I’m not naive or overlooking that Phil did a lot of this to himself from what he said.  

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1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

They tell me they are athletes.  Perhaps we can now start to approach it as a sport.  Some of the pretense may fall away.

 

That won't be for everybody and that is okay.  How do you attract new and different viewers/consumers if you put out the same product in the same way as your competition?

It's not a sport, it's on TV so it's entertainment just like the Bachelorette and Blue Bloods. 

 

People aren't making choices like "should I watch Golf or Football?" it's "Should I watch Golf, Breaking Bad, Top Gun, Goonies, Soccer, Good Good, Dude Perfect, Mark Rober, or Football" They're up against everything, because everything is available anytime they want now

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      Ryan Van Velzen - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Bettinardi covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Cameron putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
      Max Homa - Titleist 2 wood - 2024 PGA Championship
      Scotty Cameron experimental putter shaft by UST - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
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