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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


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43 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Maybe none.  Since it's secret, maybe it's zero.

 

And maybe it's growing:   "More than 94,000 fans poured through the gates of the Grange Golf Club in Adelaide, comfortably eclipsing the previous record set at last year’s event."

 

LIV Golf sets new attendance record in Adelaide | bunkered.co.uk

Good crowds.

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On 4/27/2024 at 12:52 AM, bscinstnct said:


 

“Cause, cause, cause.  Tell me about the effect.”

 

Effect of the PGA Tour:

 

A tour where 100% of the best in the world compete without a safety net and millions watch to see them eat what they kill

 

The effect of LIV Golf:

 

 

 

 

 

A Shoe-y sounds like a forfeit for not hitting your tee shot past the front tees!

 

 

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10 hours ago, Dicka said:

The notion this is any global endorsement of LIV is pretty funny. It's obvious to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that LIV Adelaide is a complete outlier...we've been starved of any decent fields here for a long, long time...so you throw in some beer and it's a recipe for success.

 

But the sugar hit wears off in a day...they're back to their venues where obody really cares. And the team concept the vast majority just don't care for other than the one in 20 or 30 that has any level of interest.

 

90,000 fans over 3 days is certainly their best event by far.  But I don't find those pictures all the compelling - take any tour event and let all the fans crowd around the last hole, that's how its going to look. Last year's Zurich Classic Saturday - the only one I could find attendance numbers for - had 35,000 fans so...similar I guess.

 

If LIV were smart, they'd have 2-3 events in AUS and start pulling those kinds of numbers in on the regular.

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1 hour ago, dcmidnight said:

 

90,000 fans over 3 days is certainly their best event by far.  But I don't find those pictures all the compelling - take any tour event and let all the fans crowd around the last hole, that's how its going to look. Last year's Zurich Classic Saturday - the only one I could find attendance numbers for - had 35,000 fans so...similar I guess.

 

If LIV were smart, they'd have 2-3 events in AUS and start pulling those kinds of numbers in on the regular.

Then you kill the novelty. 

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The post-Adelaide reporting does need some context.

 

Pre-event LIV was actively touting it had sold 125,000 tickets and counting for this event. 

 

Post-event it's down to 94,000 and screaming the success of that all over the place.  It reported 77,000 last year so . . . not anywhere close to the gigantic increase it was claiming before the event and to the gov't to justify more funding and so forth.

 

If it really sold 125,000 tickets as of a week ago - why only 94,000 show?  31,000 tickets bought with no intention of using and by whom? 125,000 not really sold? 31,000 not really interested in showing up?  The answers don't really suggest quite the success being claimed but good crowds.

 

Either way, it dwarfs LIV attendance at any of the other events.

 

As noted, LIV and Norman refuse to allow any more events in Australia other than Adelaide.  It is truly a one-off and looks like fun for those attending if they like to drink and throw cups and bottles, and fun for others I'm sure.

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I've only had one cup of coffee so please excuse my ramblings, but can someone please explain to me how LIV golf is considered 'Team Golf'? Yes, there are four guys that have agreed to play under one banner, but they don't play as a team at all. It's four guys that go out as individuals, try to shoot their best score and then they add up the scores at the end. The team aspect is as arbitrary as just pulling four names out of a hat at the end of each round and calling that a team. There's no team strategy that the Cleeks could implement if they see a leaderboard and their team is behind by three shots or up by five. The goal is to just shoot your individual lowest score regardless of what's happening with your team's score. It's pretty evident in the fact that $20m goes to the individuals while $5m gets split among 3 teams. 

 

To make it a team sport you'd need to play a team format. For example, get your four players in the same group and play a 2 player best ball. That way you've got to make a score but can also strategize by having two guys layup while the other two go for it, etc. If one guy pumps one OB or ends up blocked out in the left rough then the other three now know they've got to play a bit more conservatively. You could even play Foursome and Fourball like they do in the RC to add more of a team element to the play. LIV won't do this though because they'd have to split the $25m equally amongst team members based on tournament rankings each week. 

 

My proposal would be:
Friday: Best Ball

Saturday: Fourball

Sunday: Foursomes 

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27 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

I've only had one cup of coffee so please excuse my ramblings, but can someone please explain to me how LIV golf is considered 'Team Golf'? Yes, there are four guys that have agreed to play under one banner, but they don't play as a team at all. It's four guys that go out as individuals, try to shoot their best score and then they add up the scores at the end. The team aspect is as arbitrary as just pulling four names out of a hat at the end of each round and calling that a team. There's no team strategy that the Cleeks could implement if they see a leaderboard and their team is behind by three shots or up by five. The goal is to just shoot your individual lowest score regardless of what's happening with your team's score. It's pretty evident in the fact that $20m goes to the individuals while $5m gets split among 3 teams. 

 

To make it a team sport you'd need to play a team format. For example, get your four players in the same group and play a 2 player best ball. That way you've got to make a score but can also strategize by having two guys layup while the other two go for it, etc. If one guy pumps one OB or ends up blocked out in the left rough then the other three now know they've got to play a bit more conservatively. You could even play Foursome and Fourball like they do in the RC to add more of a team element to the play. LIV won't do this though because they'd have to split the $25m equally amongst team members based on tournament rankings each week. 

 

My proposal would be:
Friday: Best Ball

Saturday: Fourball

Sunday: Foursomes 

I agree they should lean into the team aspect even more than they do to be truly "innovative" but then they'd have to completely give up on OWGR points (LOL).

 

And to be fair, their format is similar to the way college golf plays team events - usually 5 players and 4 scores count.

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27 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

I've only had one cup of coffee so please excuse my ramblings, but can someone please explain to me how LIV golf is considered 'Team Golf'? Yes, there are four guys that have agreed to play under one banner, but they don't play as a team at all. It's four guys that go out as individuals, try to shoot their best score and then they add up the scores at the end. The team aspect is as arbitrary as just pulling four names out of a hat at the end of each round and calling that a team. There's no team strategy that the Cleeks could implement if they see a leaderboard and their team is behind by three shots or up by five. The goal is to just shoot your individual lowest score regardless of what's happening with your team's score. It's pretty evident in the fact that $20m goes to the individuals while $5m gets split among 3 teams. 

 

 

No point suggesting changes - the model was other sports and the stated goal was to have the teams be like individual franchises to be purchased by investors - it was and is a silly idea and proven a failure as a concept.  

 

100% - there is no team strategy and it's arbitrary, but that's what they want and how they are promoting it.

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2 minutes ago, jdl said:

I agree they should lean into the team aspect even more than they do to be truly "innovative" but then they'd have to completely give up on OWGR points (LOL).

 

And to be fair, their format is similar to the way college golf plays team events - usually 5 players and 4 scores count.

 

College isn't a fair comparison - college/HS has counting scores so there can be a "team" aspect to an individual sport.  But college also now has team match play.

 

LIV wanted teams to be franchises and teams to be the focus, just didn't bother to come up with a way to make it work or interesting --- it was all about nabbing the marquee players and they didn't get enough so didn't create the destruction in pro golf they wanted to "reinvent" the sport in whatever the ultimate image was supposed to be.  They trotted out their "model" and have kind of been stuck with it, IMO.

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6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

College isn't a fair comparison - college/HS has counting scores so there can be a "team" aspect to an individual sport.  But college also now has team match play.

 

 

It's certainly "fair", I was responding to this:

 

42 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

please explain to me how LIV golf is considered 'Team Golf'?

 

So it's "team golf" in exactly the same way as HS/college. Yes college has match play for the finals but the regular season is mainly "5 count 4".

 

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

LIV wanted teams to be franchises and teams to be the focus, just didn't bother to come up with a way to make it work or interesting --- it was all about nabbing the marquee players and they didn't get enough so didn't create the destruction in pro golf they wanted to "reinvent" the sport in whatever the ultimate image was supposed to be.  They trotted out their "model" and have kind of been stuck with it, IMO.

 

Preaching to the choir

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On 4/26/2024 at 2:37 PM, wedgegame said:

In the case of the ET and the PGAT, the effect was that the best golfers in the world ended up playing primarily on one tour that proved to be the better product as a result of legitimate competition between the two competing tours.

 

In the case of LIV and the PGAT, the effect is the best golfers in the world are playing on two different tours because the PIF decided to prop up a clearly inferior product with a seemingly unlimited supply of cash.

 

That clear enough for you?

 

So the PGAT doesn't have the cash to compete in arguably a capitalistic endeavor.  Just like the ET didn't/doesn't.

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On 4/26/2024 at 4:12 PM, szaino said:

This is a tail wagging the dog viewpoint.

 

If OWGR wants to be "the" ranking system for the world, then they need to figure out how to rank the best players in the world. LIV has some of the best players in the world competing in tournaments and the OWGR is totally locking them out and we all know why. 

 

This is not what a supposed independent and objective body should be doing. Team concept, 54 hole tournaments etc have nothing to do with it. If this is the professional golf environment, then OWGR needs to adjust, not the other way around. Giving 0 points to LIV players is absurd.

 

 

but they do give pts to liv players ... when they play in a golf tournament ... liv is exhibition ... similar to the ryder cup/president's cup ... 

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4 hours ago, tiderider said:

but they do give pts to liv players ... when they play in a golf tournament ... liv is exhibition ... similar to the ryder cup/president's cup ... 

 

Just like OWGR didn't give anyone points this past weekend who competed in the Zurich. How do you give individual points to someone competing in a team event? (Such as Ryder/President's Cup as well.)

 

Rory/Shane might have gotten a PGAT win and FEC points, but they didn't get OWGR. 

 

Team events don't get OWGR points. 

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6 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

So the PGAT doesn't have the cash to compete in arguably a capitalistic endeavor.  Just like the ET didn't/doesn't.

I thought we were talking about effects not causes?

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2 hours ago, Dicka said:

It really is funny listening listening to our local media here in Australia, and so much of the noise from LIV fawn over  how team golf is now "here to stay" off the back of a playoff in Adelaide.

 

I could just about guarantee that if I asked 100 golf fans how Ripper GC has gone this year and where they sit in the overall standings, I'd get a "huh?" from 95 of them. 

 

And the likelihood any of that 100 will follow their progress the rest of the season...remote.

 

It might be just the thing for Oceania.  Liv could build itself there over the next few decades and maybe it would catch on elsewhere.  It's the only way I see it having any success. 

 

Bulldozing over the PGA Tour isn't going to work.  The Liv product isn't attractive to viewers elsewhere.  Why not stay where they have fans and build on it?  Does that make too much sense?

 

Tour Edge Exotics:  Irons and Woods

Cleveland:  Wedges

Odyssey:  Putter

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

Then you kill the novelty. 

Not really. 

 

13 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

As noted, LIV and Norman refuse to allow any more events in Australia other than Adelaide.  It is truly a one-off and looks like fun for those attending if they like to drink and throw cups and bottles, and fun for others I'm sure.

Apparently, and very recently, another State Government has thrown its backing to support a LIV tournament. Norman may have to decide. 

Rumour has it that the LIV Adelaide will be played in February next year, and South Africa will be added to the schedule. They will have big turnouts there. 

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13 hours ago, leezer99 said:

I've only had one cup of coffee so please excuse my ramblings, but can someone please explain to me how LIV golf is considered 'Team Golf'? Yes, there are four guys that have agreed to play under one banner, but they don't play as a team at all. It's four guys that go out as individuals, try to shoot their best score and then they add up the scores at the end. The team aspect is as arbitrary as just pulling four names out of a hat at the end of each round and calling that a team. There's no team strategy that the Cleeks could implement if they see a leaderboard and their team is behind by three shots or up by five. The goal is to just shoot your individual lowest score regardless of what's happening with your team's score. It's pretty evident in the fact that $20m goes to the individuals while $5m gets split among 3 teams. 

 

To make it a team sport you'd need to play a team format. For example, get your four players in the same group and play a 2 player best ball. That way you've got to make a score but can also strategize by having two guys layup while the other two go for it, etc. If one guy pumps one OB or ends up blocked out in the left rough then the other three now know they've got to play a bit more conservatively. You could even play Foursome and Fourball like they do in the RC to add more of a team element to the play. LIV won't do this though because they'd have to split the $25m equally amongst team members based on tournament rankings each week. 

 

My proposal would be:
Friday: Best Ball

Saturday: Fourball

Sunday: Foursomes 

 

Saw this mentioned on Twitter / X but how in the heck does Ripper GC win the championship and not have a single person in the top 10? Then they go and celebrate on the podium popping champagne with fireworks going off? Seems manufactured to me. At least in F1 the drivers on the podium actually finished 1, 2, 3...

 

image.png.97eb700b3f74106d3f7f7130ee8b4f84.png

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94,000 for the week and they want to be compared to Phoenix?🤣

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4 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

Saw this mentioned on Twitter / X but how in the heck does Ripper GC win the championship and not have a single person in the top 10? Then they go and celebrate on the podium popping champagne with fireworks going off? Seems manufactured to me. At least in F1 the drivers on the podium actually finished 1, 2, 3...

 

image.png.97eb700b3f74106d3f7f7130ee8b4f84.png

It’s a simple aggregate of 4 players. It’s a stretch to call it manufactured. 
 

Also Matt Jones was in the top 10. The other 3 of the team were only one shot behind him. 
 

in f1 they have some guy from the winning constructor collect a trophy on the podium - he didn’t even drive the car

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5 hours ago, Chopper Dave said:

It’s a simple aggregate of 4 players. It’s a stretch to call it manufactured. 
 

Also Matt Jones was in the top 10. The other 3 of the team were only one shot behind him. 
 

in f1 they have some guy from the winning constructor collect a trophy on the podium - he didn’t even drive the car

 

Aha! That explains why Norman was up there! 

 

Couldn't resist.

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16 hours ago, bscinstnct said:


 

There are a number of ways that LIV is not a “capitalistic endeavor”

 

First and foremost 

 

A “capitalistic endeavor”, capitalism, is based on private ownership. You know, that deploys capital with a set of metrics around getting a specific financial return, in a  specific timeframe, around that capital. 
 

LIV is owned by a government. And clearly is not a “capitalistic endeavor” by any measure. 

 

Fair enough.  When it comes to a battle of funds, LIV has more than the PGAT or more willingness to spend those funds to meet what it is angling for than the other.

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