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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


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15 minutes ago, freeze16172002 said:

LIV is coming to a crossroads. What do they do when the Poulters, Kaymers etc contracts end? LIV is mostly washed up and never were players? keep signing them to fill a spot for no performance reason?

After the Saudi’s hiring of Anthony Kim, I expect LIV to sign more promotional players in the future. Maybe split tees and have Paige Spiranac play? John Daly? Some of the long drive guys?

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1 hour ago, freeze16172002 said:

LIV is coming to a crossroads. What do they do when the Poulters, Kaymers etc contracts end? LIV is mostly washed up and never were players? keep signing them to fill a spot for no performance reason?

 

There will be a bunch of player captains that end up as non-playing captains which will free up some space to bring in some real talent. There are plenty of high level college players that are already trying to negotiate contracts. Some of which just got done with NCAA Regionals. 

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1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

 

There will be a bunch of player captains that end up as non-playing captains which will free up some space to bring in some real talent. There are plenty of high level college players that are already trying to negotiate contracts. Some of which just got done with NCAA Regionals. 

A bunch of high level college players are negotiating contracts? What names do you have?

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18 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Waaaaaiiitt, you hate Ram’s reaction to putts but you miss Hatton?!  I am so glad that little hobbit is gone.  I got so tired of watching him gesticulate after every missed putt, as if he read it perfectly but the laws of physics suspended for the duration of his putt just to piss him off.  I do not miss him in the least.  Honestly, I don’t miss anyone the announcers referred to as ‘fiery’, which is really just a way of saying someone has a bit of an anger management problem.

 

Ehh. Hatton's anger was funny to me. Rahm's wasn't. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

 

There will be a bunch of player captains that end up as non-playing captains which will free up some space to bring in some real talent. There are plenty of high level college players that are already trying to negotiate contracts. Some of which just got done with NCAA Regionals. 

 

So the plan is to replace the guys in the twilight of their careers with "high level" college players who don't have careers?  LIV is forced to pay them way above their value because they are giving up any path to PGAT and most majors, no one watches, and try to make up the massive losses from team franchise fees / hat sales of crummy team names/logos.

 

Sounds like a great plan.  The Korn Ferry Tour will never know what hit them!

Edited by CasualLie
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10 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

They left the PGA Tour and their fans for their own reasons.  I'm still an avid watcher of the PGA Tour, no way I'm watching Liv just to see those guys.  Hate is your interpretation of why I no longer follow them. 

 

Entertainment is my reasoning, the PGA Tour is exciting.

I didn't say I was a fan of LIV.  I said I'm a fan of Rahm, Johnson, Mickelson, etc., and always watch them when they play the majors.

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3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

There will be a bunch of player captains that end up as non-playing captains which will free up some space to bring in some real talent. There are plenty of high level college players that are already trying to negotiate contracts. Some of which just got done with NCAA Regionals. 

That would really surprise me. You would essentially be giving up a career before it starts. I know there are people that think LIV is a great product but even they have to agree that the lack of momentum they have been able to gather would be a huge negative to someone trying to become "somebody."

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On 5/15/2024 at 6:23 AM, Golferpaul said:

I do.  I loved watching them at the Masters.

 

I'm still a fan of Norman, Mickelson, Rahm, Dechambeau, Johnson, Reed, etc because I don't hate somebody for their choice of where to work.  I've enjoyed watching them for decades and won't stop just because they left the PGAT.

 

 

Who said “hate”?  There is a wide difference between apathy and hate.  For most of us it’s just apathy.  Players we once enjoyed are gone from the tour and it’s as if they retired. Good riddance.

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3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

There will be a bunch of player captains that end up as non-playing captains which will free up some space to bring in some real talent. There are plenty of high level college players that are already trying to negotiate contracts. Some of which just got done with NCAA Regionals. 

And just like in any sport you have little to no idea if any of them would ever  make it in professional golf.  But at least if they go to LIV they can be promoted as “great collegiate “ players.

 

Note how many we never heard of again…..

 

https://www.ncaa.com/news/golf-men/article/2021-06-02/ncaa-mens-golf-individual-and-team-champions

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

There will be a bunch of player captains that end up as non-playing captains which will free up some space to bring in some real talent. There are plenty of high level college players that are already trying to negotiate contracts. Some of which just got done with NCAA Regionals. 

 

Nothing drives a sport more than hiring young, unproven talent.  And I mean, look at the ratings for college golf.  I bet sponsors are just lining up to sign with LIV once they fill their fields with young, no names that nobody’s ever heard of.  I mean, the friends and family audience alone has to be worth hundreds of dollars of advertising revenue.

Edited by Archimedes65
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30 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

How could Dunne be so influential when he has not been a part of the PGA Tour/LIV discussions since June 2023.

 

I had the same reaction, and it just confirms for me that Rory is spouting opinions as facts.  There’s a method to what he’s doing, it’s not just off the cuff responses to questions.  He has an agenda and he’s trying to advance it every time he opens his mouth.

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4 hours ago, johnseg said:

That would really surprise me. You would essentially be giving up a career before it starts. I know there are people that think LIV is a great product but even they have to agree that the lack of momentum they have been able to gather would be a huge negative to someone trying to become "somebody."

They should all grab the cash if it's offered because there's no guarantee they'd have any kind of "career" in golf.

 

It would be a disastrous plan for LIV though. I think they may get a couple, but more than that would make no sense at all.

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4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

And just like in any sport you have little to no idea if any of them would ever  make it in professional golf.  But at least if they go to LIV they can be promoted as “great collegiate “ players.

 

Note how many we never heard of again…..

 

https://www.ncaa.com/news/golf-men/article/2021-06-02/ncaa-mens-golf-individual-and-team-champions

 

Yeah, but what if they come out and right off the bat they win the Nashville Country Biscuit Open?!  Think of the noteriety, the press!  Of course, that assumes they didn’t win in a playoff and the broadcast cut to a rerun of Sabrina, The Teenage Witch.

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4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Who said “hate”?  There is a wide difference between apathy and hate.  For most of us it’s just apathy.  Players we once enjoyed are gone from the tour and it’s as if they retired. Good riddance.

 

Exactly. There are players I am sad to see leave and go to LIV, players that I'm indifferent to see leave and go to LIV, and players that I say "good riddance" but I didn't like those guys when they were on Tour. I don't hate any of them though. 

 

I am a little angry at them for leaving, because the very existence of LIV fractures the sport of professional golf and dilutes the talent pool. I can't blame them personally for cashing those giant checks because for several of them it was probably a good decision, but I can be angry at the effects of those decisions. 

 

But beyond the effect on the sport, those players have largely just been out of sight, out of mind, for me. Really don't think about them, much less take the time "hate" anyone, other than when they show up in the news and it pops up in this thread. 

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1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

I was really happy to hear Lucas Glover’s comments yesterday ripping the player board members.  I’ve been wondering what a career journeyman who’s perennially in the bottom half of the PGA Tour rankings, save for one brief hot streak, was thinking…

 

I think a lot of the people ripping the players on the policy board have forgotten what the PGA Tour was/is.  The PGA Tour was a member owned non-profit, run for the benefit of the players.  The CEO and independent board members served at the DISCRETION of the players.  The CEO and board members like Dunne and Herlihy are not the owners of the PGA Tour.

 

What occurred last year was the equivalent of the following.  Imagine that you’re a part of a group of investors that own a company and are also key to producing the products it delivers.  A group of those investors are disgruntled, and are lured away by another investor to come a build a competing company.  The leave willingly and then turn around and sue your company.  Your company, your CEO, and the Board countersue and publicly assail the other company as immoral and treacherous.  A while thereafter YOUR CEO and Board, unbeknownst to you and in secret, negotiate a merger with said competitor.  You find out 30 minutes before they announce it to the press.  On top of that, they either directly lie to you, or are such bad deal makers that they don’t really understand the negotiations that they just completed, and tell you that ‘don’t worry, we’ll have control and be able to make them go away.”  How would you react?  Would you think that governance broke down and that you’d want changes to be made so that you had a say in the Company that YOU OWN and are responsible for creating all the value in?

 

This is akin to SpaceEx’s management and board negotiating a deal with Bezo’s to merge with Blue Origin and letting Musk know 30 minutes before the press release goes out.  Do you think he’d be cool with that or that he would fire everyone on the spot and move to replace the board?

 

The CEO and Board did a secret deal without consulting its own ownership group, a deal that their members overwhelmingly were against, and on top of that they botched the negotiations.  The question shouldn’t be; why do the players have so much power now?  It should be, why are any of the CEO and Board Members that were involved in that process still there?  Again, the only reason they are is because the players bought the lie/incorrect assumption that LIV was going away as a result of the deal.

 

And Lucas Glover?  Dude, nobody is paying to see you play golf.  Rather than criticizing the guys that are actually driving the eyeballs to golf and creating value, you should probably just thank the Lord (i.e., Tiger) that you’re making millions to play a game where you finish 75th in the rankings most years.

 

While I agree with 99% of your soliloquy, the only thing that is debatable in my mind is the role of Jay Monahan. What we have to remember is that there wasn't a merger or a deal on June 6,2023 there was a framework agreement. PIF wanted to stop the discovery process and the PGAT wanted to stop the lawsuits and more importantly, there was a good chance that they would have lost the anti-trust lawsuit due to incriminating emails.

 

All Jay did was put the process into the player's hands.....which is where we are today.

 

Jay Monahan's job is to find revenue for the members, not to embrace the status quo.

He secured $3 Billion from SSG and on course to secure $3 Billion from the PIF. In addition, Jay Monahan is also in a position to secure added investors in the waiting.

 

Did I mention that Monahan got the members a 400% raise from the previous TV deal.

$9 Billion in Media rights. The PGAT is doing just fine. 

 

Notice how the narrative has changed recently from "we can't associate ourselves with the bad Saudis" to "A deal has to be Made"........Well played Jay Monahan. IMO

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

While I agree with 99% of your soliloquy, the only thing that is debatable in my mind is the role of Jay Monahan. What we have to remember is that there wasn't a merger or a deal on June 6,2023 there was a framework agreement. PIF wanted to stop the discovery process and the PGAT wanted to stop the lawsuits and more importantly, there was a good chance that they would have lost the anti-trust lawsuit due to incriminating emails.

 

All Jay did was put the process into the player's hands.....which is where we are today.

 

Jay Monahan's job is to find revenue for the members, not to embrace the status quo.

He secured $3 Billion from SSG and on course to secure $3 Billion from the PIF. In addition, Jay Monahan is also in a position to secure added investors in the waiting.

 

Did I mention that Monahan got the members a 400% raise from the previous TV deal.

$9 Billion in Media rights. The PGAT is doing just fine. 

 

Notice how the narrative has changed recently from "we can't associate ourselves with the bad Saudis" to "A deal has to be Made"........Well played Jay Monahan. IMO

 

But there was/is no framework agreement, really, or there would have been progress on a deal by now.  It’s clear that each side had a very different interpretation of what that document meant.  And by agreeing to that useless piece of paper, the PGA Tour both lost the moral high ground in the public debate, but also showed the whole world that it’s own governance was dysfunctional.

 

The reason the PGA Tour is in the public relations pickle they’re in today is because that entire process was mismanaged by Monahan and Dunne.  What they did is NOT the way you manage a merger negotiation.  And the argument they made about the need to keep it secret from the players is absolute nonsense.  They did that for selfish reasons, to avoid the inevitable internal rejection of the idea of a merge by the players. They thought they knew better than their owners, plain and simple.  The mistakes made so far are 100% on Monahan and Dunne.

 

And doing a deal with a losing business is not ‘finding revenue’.  They did the TV deal, without PIF.  They got SSG, without PIF.  The fact that so many groups stepped up to compete for the option to invest in the Tour just solidifies the fact that the talks with the PIF were unnecessary and premature.  BTW, Monahan didn’t ‘do the SSG deal’.  The revamped player director component of the board was heavily involved in the negotiation of that deal and had final say/voting control over it.   

Edited by Archimedes65
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43 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

the PGAT wanted to stop the lawsuits and more importantly, there was a good chance that they would have lost the anti-trust lawsuit due to incriminating emails.

 

 

 

 

Not sure there was a "good chance". There was "enough of a chance" that they wanted to avoid discovery. 

 

I.e. if you win, you've spent a bunch of money to be status quo. If you lose, you've spent a bunch of money and potentially have a major change to your business structure, future possible earnings, potential DOJ fines ranging in the hundreds of millions or more, etc. 

 

If it's 10:1 that you'll win your lawsuit but losing the lawsuit will result in $3B combined negative effect over the next decade, you find a way to end that lawsuit. Any chance of losing is almost existentially bad, so getting a chance to avoid it is usually a good decision. That doesn't mean they had a "good chance" of losing and that's why they made the decision. 

 

It's like, would you play Russian Roulette for $5M dollars? You have a 5 in 6 chance of getting $5M. You have a 1 in 6 chance of being dead. Well, the consequences of the 1 in 6 chance are dire enough for your to avoid the benefit of the 5 in 6 chance. 

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The PIF was NEVER going to allow Yasir to be deposed, so the lawsuits were NEVER going to trial, regardless of of whether they signed the framework agreement or not.  If they were, they never would have agreed to dismiss them with prejudice when they had nothing more than what’s turned out to be a back of the napkin agreement worth less than the napkin it was written on.

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1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

While I agree with 99% of your soliloquy, the only thing that is debatable in my mind is the role of Jay Monahan. What we have to remember is that there wasn't a merger or a deal on June 6,2023 there was a framework agreement. PIF wanted to stop the discovery process and the PGAT wanted to stop the lawsuits and more importantly, there was a good chance that they would have lost the anti-trust lawsuit due to incriminating emails.

 

All Jay did was put the process into the player's hands.....which is where we are today.

 

Jay Monahan's job is to find revenue for the members, not to embrace the status quo.

He secured $3 Billion from SSG and on course to secure $3 Billion from the PIF. In addition, Jay Monahan is also in a position to secure added investors in the waiting.

 

Did I mention that Monahan got the members a 400% raise from the previous TV deal.

$9 Billion in Media rights. The PGAT is doing just fine. 

 

Notice how the narrative has changed recently from "we can't associate ourselves with the bad Saudis" to "A deal has to be Made"........Well played Jay Monahan. IMO

 

Do you really think PIF will handover money without benefits. Sure, the SSG have, but they'll soon see that their ROI is faltering. The SSG want PIF in. It's to their benefit. 

Remember, this is not about getting LIV to merge with the PGAT... they will both be stand alone tours. 2 different products. 

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5 minutes ago, notsohard said:

 

Do you really think PIF will handover money without benefits. Sure, the SSG have, but they'll soon see that their ROI is faltering. The SSG want PIF in. It's to their benefit. 

Remember, this is not about getting LIV to merge with the PGAT... they will both be stand alone tours. 2 different products. 


SSG is not a white knight and will be looking to maximise its returns 

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7 minutes ago, notsohard said:

 

Do you really think PIF will handover money without benefits. Sure, the SSG have, but they'll soon see that their ROI is faltering. The SSG want PIF in. It's to their benefit. 

Remember, this is not about getting LIV to merge with the PGAT... they will both be stand alone tours. 2 different products. 

I agree.

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6 minutes ago, notsohard said:

 

Do you really think PIF will handover money without benefits. Sure, the SSG have, but they'll soon see that their ROI is faltering. The SSG want PIF in. It's to their benefit. 

Remember, this is not about getting LIV to merge with the PGAT... they will both be stand alone tours. 2 different products. 

 

Except the framework agreement would have LIV become a subsidiary of the PGA Tour Enterprises, which would have “full decision-making authority with respect to all strategic and operational matters related to competition.”  Jimmy Dunne testified that this meant that the CEO of PGATE, Monahan, would have the final say on whether LIV kept operating or was shut down.

 

And I don’t agree with a blanket statement that SSG simply wants PIF in.  They want PIF in if the deal is the right deal for them, both in terms of valuation and strategy.  SSG agreed to invest up to $3 billion in the PGA Tour knowing full well that the PIF investment was uncertain.  I’m sure they’d like to negotiate a deal if it’s favorable to them, but the idea that they HAVE to do a deal is nonsense.  If that was the case, they would have waited and made their investment concurrent with the PIF.

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      Garrick Higgo - 2 Aretera shafts in the bag - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Jhonattan Vegas' custom Cameron putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      2 new Super Stroke Marvel comics grips - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Swag blade putter - 2024 John Deere Classic
      Swag Golf - Joe Dirt covers - 2024 John Deere Classic
       
       
       
       
       
      • 3 replies
    • 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Nate Lashley - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Hayden Springer - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Jackson Koivun - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Callum Tarren - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
      Luke Clanton - WITB - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jason Dufner's custom 3-D printed Cobra putter - 2024 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 11 replies

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