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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


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9 minutes ago, notsohard said:

DOJ is looking at the "alleged antitrust behaviour" of the PGAT.

It's why it has taken time for the two parties to come to an agreement recently. 

Two different things that are not related.  The Senate hearing on the merger with the PIF/PGA is not the same as the multiple attempts they’ve made at the tour over the years.

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I’m don’t believe that any U.S. antitrust law would apply to a business overpaying for an input.  The issue would be if they are pricing their products/services at a loss in order to destroy competition and achieve monopoly profits in the future.  One might be able to argue that is an end goal, but it would be a stretch and the PGA Tour would need to bring that type of action themselves.  The DOJ is not going to investigate and prosecute a company like LIV based on this fact pattern.  What they will look at it is whether a MERGER between the parties is anticompetitive, however, I don’t think that has any legs whatsoever for many reasons.  That was more a political grandstand than anything else, and I doubt the DOJ is doing any hard investigation.  They’ll do a review, conclude nothing and let it go through, if there is an agreement.

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24 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

I’m don’t believe that any U.S. antitrust law would apply to a business overpaying for an input.  The issue would be if they are pricing their products/services at a loss in order to destroy competition and achieve monopoly profits in the future.  One might be able to argue that is an end goal, but it would be a stretch and the PGA Tour would need to bring that type of action themselves.  The DOJ is not going to investigate and prosecute a company like LIV based on this fact pattern.  What they will look at it is whether a MERGER between the parties is anticompetitive, however, I don’t think that has any legs whatsoever for many reasons.  That was more a political grandstand than anything else, and I doubt the DOJ is doing any hard investigation.  They’ll do a review, conclude nothing and let it go through, if there is an agreement.

Oh, I agree that the DOJ will let any deal go through......my concern was the fact that SA was ridiculously paying players billions of dollars for no return on their investment just to destroy the PGAT.

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13 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Oh, I agree that the DOJ will let any deal go through......my concern was the fact that SA was ridiculously paying players billions of dollars for no return on their investment just to destroy the PGAT.

 

That would be a Sherman Act case, but likely the DOJ would require the PGA Tour to file suit against LIV rather than the DOJ.  And the facts would be a stretch.  Long, expensive litigation at best.

 

The merger issue is a Clayton Act case, though I think even there making a case would be a stretch.  The referral to DOJ was political grandstanding.  I don’t think anything will come of it. 

 

That said, I would LOVE for the DOJ to step in and kill any merger.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

That would be a Sherman Act case, but likely the DOJ would require the PGA Tour to file suit against LIV rather than the DOJ.  And the facts would be a stretch.  Long, expensive litigation at best.

 

The merger issue is a Clayton Act case, though I think even there making a case would be a stretch.  The referral to DOJ was political grandstanding.  I don’t think anything will come of it. 

 

That said, I would LOVE for the DOJ to step in and kill any merger.

 

 

Either way it won't affect my viewing habits, I'll continue to watch the PGAT product for the total package.

 

I continue to believe that the tour players will not let that much revenue slip through their hands. IMO

 

The PGAT has always been money whores. that's what they do, play golf for money....

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1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

Either way it won't affect my viewing habits, I'll continue to watch the PGAT product for the total package.

 

I continue to believe that the tour players will not let that much revenue slip through their hands. IMO

 

The PGAT has always been money whores. that's what they do, play golf for money....

Like any profession…..

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9 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

That would be a Sherman Act case, but likely the DOJ would require the PGA Tour to file suit against LIV rather than the DOJ.  And the facts would be a stretch.  Long, expensive litigation at best.

 

The merger issue is a Clayton Act case, though I think even there making a case would be a stretch.  The referral to DOJ was political grandstanding.  I don’t think anything will come of it. 

 

That said, I would LOVE for the DOJ to step in and kill any merger.

 

 

The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS) is the government wildcard in any potential deal.  I don't see the a deal being killed by the government over monopoly or any other business fundamentals but the CFIUS has a lot of latitude in this situation and isn't reliant on precedent or case law.  SA checks enough boxes that would allow the CFIUS to kill the investment but on the other hand, the US Govt is generally reluctant to stifle foreign investment in the US.  I know people will say, 'SA was allowed to invest in Uber, FedEx, Amazon, etc' but those represent a different scenario being stock purchases, without a controlling interest, for the sole purpose of financial return.  SA's motives for investing in golf are not based on a traditional ROI.  I think a deal may have been killed based on the original framework agreement with Yasir serving as Chairman of Enterprises but if SA is more of a passive investor in a future deal, it will draw less scrutiny from CFIUS.

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8 minutes ago, RobS said:

The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS) is the government wildcard in any potential deal.  I don't see the a deal being killed by the government over monopoly or any other business fundamentals but the CFIUS has a lot of latitude in this situation and isn't reliant on precedent or case law.  SA checks enough boxes that would allow the CFIUS to kill the investment but on the other hand, the US Govt is generally reluctant to stifle foreign investment in the US.  I know people will say, 'SA was allowed to invest in Uber, FedEx, Amazon, etc' but those represent a different scenario being stock purchases, without a controlling interest, for the sole purpose of financial return.  SA's motives for investing in golf are not based on a traditional ROI.  I think a deal may have been killed based on the original framework agreement with Yasir serving as Chairman of Enterprises but if SA is more of a passive investor in a future deal, it will draw less scrutiny from CFIUS.

Although…you will recall that in the original house committee on the merger  there were two strikes against it as I recall.  One was Yasir and Greg declining to show up IIRC and second was the attitude of the House committee.  They many times made reference to concerns about the Saudi investment in a “cherished American institution “ …..yeah, so cherished you’ve been after them for 40 years.😏

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2 hours ago, RobS said:

The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS) is the government wildcard in any potential deal.  I don't see the a deal being killed by the government over monopoly or any other business fundamentals but the CFIUS has a lot of latitude in this situation and isn't reliant on precedent or case law.  SA checks enough boxes that would allow the CFIUS to kill the investment but on the other hand, the US Govt is generally reluctant to stifle foreign investment in the US.  I know people will say, 'SA was allowed to invest in Uber, FedEx, Amazon, etc' but those represent a different scenario being stock purchases, without a controlling interest, for the sole purpose of financial return.  SA's motives for investing in golf are not based on a traditional ROI.  I think a deal may have been killed based on the original framework agreement with Yasir serving as Chairman of Enterprises but if SA is more of a passive investor in a future deal, it will draw less scrutiny from CFIUS.

 

CFIUS is focused on national security issues, potential tech transfers, etc.  There’s no way they would actually open an investigation about an investment like this, particularly against a non-sanctioned country.  Unless there are national security implications to the PGA Tour that we don’t know about…. 😉

 

If a merger comes about, the Tour will notify the CFIUS and that would be it.

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2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Although…you will recall that in the original house committee on the merger  there were two strikes against it as I recall.  One was Yasir and Greg declining to show up IIRC and second was the attitude of the House committee.  They many times made reference to concerns about the Saudi investment in a “cherished American institution “ …..yeah, so cherished you’ve been after them for 40 years.😏

 

All grandstanding.  The House has no power to do anything here but make referrals, which would have no legs.  There’s nothing stopping this merger/investment if both parties want it to happen.  Sadly.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

Do you think Yasir feels like he’s getting his money’s worth out of Phil, DJ, Cam Smith, and Rahm at this point?  DJ got a whole lot of cash to look disinterested in golf.

 

I think most of LIV's investments have been terrible.  There are a handful of guys that still play with fire like Koepka or DeChambeau but lots of players there are just showing up and cashing checks at this point.  Which is something a lot of us predicted would happen.

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We see how much money they've spent on players.

 

Imagine the expense of everything else. Norman isn't doing this for fun as well as the rest of the office. 

 

Imagine the expense of putting one of these circus events together.

 

TV, Internet, courses, circus tents and events. The list is endless.

 

Approaching or exceeding $4 bil would be my guess. Can you imagine the potential return on that kind of money opposed to what they have made? Less than zero whatever that is.

 

As far as making themselves look good, I don't that has been accomplished either.

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9 hours ago, ALIF said:

If Paulina was your wife, would you be interested in golf?

 

If she was high maintenance, I'd definitely be interested in more golf. 

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Interesting take by Mr. Lynch. 

 

The investors pumping money into the Tour — not just SSG, but likely the Saudi Public Investment Fund, too — are not doing so to preserve the status quo, in any respect. They will expect players to shoulder more responsibility for the product, to be givers and not just takers. Private equity took over F1 in 2017 and the asks made of drivers grew noticeably greater. Not just media interviews, but marketing content creation, fan interactions, walk-throughs with rooms full of corporate sponsors. Golfers sometimes do things like that, but not often, and usually more in service of their own commercial interests than the Tour’s. That practice is incompatible with the impending expectations of folks who will want a more engaging, fan- and sponsor-friendly product that shows significant growth.

We’re about to find out how much players really believe themselves to be equity stakeholders with a shared interest in growing the Tour’s business, or if they still consider themselves independent contractors beholden to no one but wives and swing svengalis.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lynch-brooks-koepka-isn-t-205311653.html

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42 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

Interesting take by Mr. Lynch. 

 

The investors pumping money into the Tour — not just SSG, but likely the Saudi Public Investment Fund, too — are not doing so to preserve the status quo, in any respect. They will expect players to shoulder more responsibility for the product, to be givers and not just takers. Private equity took over F1 in 2017 and the asks made of drivers grew noticeably greater. Not just media interviews, but marketing content creation, fan interactions, walk-throughs with rooms full of corporate sponsors. Golfers sometimes do things like that, but not often, and usually more in service of their own commercial interests than the Tour’s. That practice is incompatible with the impending expectations of folks who will want a more engaging, fan- and sponsor-friendly product that shows significant growth.

We’re about to find out how much players really believe themselves to be equity stakeholders with a shared interest in growing the Tour’s business, or if they still consider themselves independent contractors beholden to no one but wives and swing svengalis.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lynch-brooks-koepka-isn-t-205311653.html

 

It all goes back to what we said years ago.  Players are going to rue the day they pursued all these dollars because they don't come without strings attached.  They will lose control their schedules, what events they want to play, what other interactions they chose to do, etc.

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47 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

Interesting take by Mr. Lynch. 

 

The investors pumping money into the Tour — not just SSG, but likely the Saudi Public Investment Fund, too — are not doing so to preserve the status quo, in any respect. They will expect players to shoulder more responsibility for the product, to be givers and not just takers. Private equity took over F1 in 2017 and the asks made of drivers grew noticeably greater. Not just media interviews, but marketing content creation, fan interactions, walk-throughs with rooms full of corporate sponsors. Golfers sometimes do things like that, but not often, and usually more in service of their own commercial interests than the Tour’s. That practice is incompatible with the impending expectations of folks who will want a more engaging, fan- and sponsor-friendly product that shows significant growth.

We’re about to find out how much players really believe themselves to be equity stakeholders with a shared interest in growing the Tour’s business, or if they still consider themselves independent contractors beholden to no one but wives and swing svengalis.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lynch-brooks-koepka-isn-t-205311653.html

I’m sure the tour is aware of this and frankly this is one area the PGAT can improve in.

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1 hour ago, Short Pete said:

Yes, very much so. She is so not interesting. 


it’s easy to turn down a woman you’ll never get 

 

 

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